Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[Deinomenid]

That does seem to be the case but the $3.5m refers to the refunding of the  purchaser. I'm  sure  Mr Beale paid  full UK capital gains tax on his gain so there's going to be a hole there to say nothing  of  taxes  of course paid  on the commission earned and  again  on dividends  paid  out of the company or extra salary drawn.

There's a hole.

And  of course all this assumes this "mix-up" has never happened before or since, and no-one is looking  into all that.

 

[Kaleun96]

42 minutes ago, Brennos said:

I may be wrong but i understood that it was Richard Beale who bought the coin few years before offering it for auction...

That's what it sounds like, or I think the language was "Vecchi gave the coin to the defendant" so maybe no money changed hands. But that doesn't change much, Roma Numismatics is the entity that sold the coin and would be the one to refund the buyer in the event of it being seized. Normally, I imagine Roma would then go after the consignor and ask the consignor to repay them given the falsified provenance but since the coin and false provenance was provided by Beale and/or Vecchi, I'm not sure what that would mean for this scenario.

Additionally, if the DA is correct and the coin is stolen, Beale/Vecchi will presumably lose the money they received from the sale of the Eid Mar. So I would assume Roma, as a company, might be out of luck in that the money received from the sale is gone but they're still stuck responsible for reimbursing the buyer.

Whether that's how things actually work legally, I'm not sure, I'm just speculating in that regard.

[Hrefn]

10 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

The 1970 UNESCO Convention which regulates the international trade in "cultural property" deems current national borders as the determinant, without regard to historical cultural affinity. It carries the force of law in most of the world. The oft-discussed memoranda of understanding are the practical implementation of the Convention. You can read the actual text here:

https://www.unesco.org/en/legal-affairs/convention-means-prohibiting-and-preventing-illicit-import-export-and-transfer-ownership-cultural

That is more or less my point.  The current national boundaries are ephemeral.  Where should a Carolingian coin discovered in Alsace be repatriated?  France, or Germany?  Depending on the year of excavation, the answer to that question would have changed several times in the past century.  Should a Ancient Greek coin discovered on the Acropolis in Athens be returned to Turkey if found before 1800, but to Greece if found in 1900?  If found in 1220, during the Frankokratia, it should go to Paris, or perhaps Belgium.  

There is an old saying which states the law is an ass, and this UNESCO Convention is a fine example.  It asserts a legal right where there is no clear moral right.  In effect the ownership of cultural property is dependent on whose military has most recently seized the site of discovery.  Might makes right.

Many countries feel resentment toward other nations which conquered or colonized them, because the winner took the cultural artifacts of the loser.  But the philosophy underlying the principle of the UNESCO convention disallows such a complaint.  If Napoleonic France, Nazi Germany, the British Empire, or the Soviet Union carried off your cultural artifacts, too bad for you, so long as your former country was incorporated into the new empire.  If you support UNESCO you have undercut your own grounds for complaint.  

 

[Ryro]

5 hours ago, Barnaba6 said:

@DonnaML,

Thank you for your empathy. I appreciate it. This is indeed troubling news and obviously I can’t say that I feel comfortable. I had no idea about this matter until yesterday.  

The allegations against Mr. Beale are certainly serious and - if true – will likely lead to serious legal consequences for Mr. Beale.

However, let us not forget that the criminal case is not against the Roma Numismatics company but against Mr. Beale personally. As of now, there are no worrying signs pertaining to Roma Numismatics itself. In particular, there is no information suggesting that consignors are not receiving their due payments or that buyers are not receiving the coins purchased from Roma (including coins sold at Roma's recent e-sale no. 106). At least I am not aware of any such complaints and I am sure that people would publicly share their complaints on various forums if they had them. On the contrary, Roma’s auctions are continuing to run as usual.

I can confirm that I received a standard advance payment from Roma in January  (i.e. already after the arrest of Mr. Beale as it now turns out) for the coins which I consigned as per our consignment agreement. I am in regular contact with Roma’s staff, receive all the pre-sale reports and other information etc. Roma’s staff is very responsive. All seems normal.  

Not underestimating the accusations against Mr. Beale personally, in the lack of any specific evidence pertaining to Roma’s current operations, I think we should avoid questioning the safety of buying and selling through Roma Numismatics. Any potential panic – if sufficiently widespread – might kill even the strongest companies, regardless of whether such panic is justified. 

So I would nevertheless encourage you Donna to bid on the Probus coins which interest you. I can assure you that the provenance of the coins stated by Roma in this case is true: they all come from my personal collection and I am indeed a "Polish connoisseur of Probus coins". I acquired my coins from reputable European auction houses in the last 12 years and most coins have prior documented provenances (prior to entering my own collection).

Furthermore, unlike coins leading to the arrest of Mr. Beale, my Probus coins are not worth hundreds of thousand or millions of pounds a piece (alas!), so I don’t see why there should be any problems in exporting them safely to the US by Roma after the sale.  

Ultimately, it is always the bidder’s individual decision whether to bid or not on a particular lot at a particular auction.   

I feel for you being a consignor as this comes to light. 

That said, I must admit to going over their catalog a second time due to the fact that this might scare away buyers. Who knows, maybe I'm not the only one and it will have the opposite effect? Like Kmart said in the 80s, "We don't care what they are saying about us. So long as they are talking about us."

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Ryro

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I'm just checking in before work.  So, from what I could quickly glean, the feds are getting on the guy because of inane antiquities laws? I immediately have sympathy for Mr. Beale, I'll examine this more closely tonight.

And yes, let's give the fellow the courtesy of presumption of innocence.  We all know that authorities never  falsely charge or trump up charges.   

[Heliodromus]

2 hours ago, Brennos said:

I may be wrong but i understood that it was Richard Beale who bought the coin few years before offering it for auction...

On re-reading the charges someone posted near top of this thread, he was apparently already shopping it around at the NYINC way back in 2015, with "informant #1" being the person (or one of the people) he offered it to.

The charges say Beale was "given" the coin by Vecchi to sell, but then seems to say that he and Vecchi were jointly trying to pay for false provenance, so not clear who actually owned it at that point.

 

[Phil Davis]

25 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I'm just checking in before work.  So, from what I could quickly glean, the feds are getting on the guy because of inane antiquities laws? I immediately have sympathy for Mr. Beale, I'll examine this more closely tonight.

And yes, let's give the fellow the courtesy of presumption of innocence.  We all know that authorities never  falsely charge or trump up charges.   

Not the Feds. New York state.

[DonnaML]

39 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I'm just checking in before work.  So, from what I could quickly glean, the feds are getting on the guy because of inane antiquities laws? I immediately have sympathy for Mr. Beale, I'll examine this more closely tonight.

And yes, let's give the fellow the courtesy of presumption of innocence.  We all know that authorities never  falsely charge or trump up charges.   

I suggest you read the charges before offering  your opinion.

[KenDorney]

2 hours ago, Hrefn said:

There is an old saying which states the law is an ass, and this UNESCO Convention is a fine example.  It asserts a legal right where there is no clear moral right.  In effect the ownership of cultural property is dependent on whose military has most recently seized the site of discovery.  Might makes right.

This right here explains much of the Gaza Hoard situation.  While many countries recognize Palestine, others dont and most could care less.  I'm sure there was a sort of opinion such as 'What are they gonna do about it?', or 'What can they do about it?'

How does this pertains to the two coins?  I dunno and nobody does at this point:  its all just speculation.  While I am sure there are a number of people who actually do know where and how they originated (or at least think they do) I am sure the prosecution doesn't and could not prove it under US law.  I suppose maybe they have some farmer from a small town on their witness list, but it seems to me it will be a difficult task.

[Magnus Maximus]

1 hour ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I'm just checking in before work.  So, from what I could quickly glean, the feds are getting on the guy because of inane antiquities laws? I immediately have sympathy for Mr. Beale, I'll examine this more closely tonight.

And yes, let's give the fellow the courtesy of presumption of innocence.  We all know that authorities never  falsely charge or trump up charges.   

[kirispupis]

34 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

This right here explains much of the Gaza Hoard situation.  While many countries recognize Palestine, others dont and most could care less.  I'm sure there was a sort of opinion such as 'What are they gonna do about it?', or 'What can they do about it?'

How does this pertains to the two coins?  I dunno and nobody does at this point:  its all just speculation.  While I am sure there are a number of people who actually do know where and how they originated (or at least think they do) I am sure the prosecution doesn't and could not prove it under US law.  I suppose maybe they have some farmer from a small town on their witness list, but it seems to me it will be a difficult task.

From what I read of the case, they're not trying to prove that the coins were illegally obtained. They do mention that each time the coins entered the US they were given a different country of origin, but the crux of the case seems to be that Beale misled customers by deliberately falsifying the provenance of the coins.

From what they've released, that doesn't appear difficult. Beale himself seems to have admitted it.

Another interesting fact is the case doesn't mention defrauding the buyers at all. It's likely the buyers aren't in New York State and may not even be in the US. The fraud the case mentions involves sending catalogs with the faulty provenance to residents of NYS and placing it on a website they can access. On the positive side for Beale, given the charges it seems likely there will be some form of plea deal and he'll avoid jail time.

In terms of restitution, I believe (and I'm not a lawyer) that's a completely separate case. If I were the buyer, I would demand it only if the coin was forcibly repatriated, but that's another case and as it has already been mentioned a) will be tricky to prove the coins were in fact looted and b) it's not obvious to which country to repatriate it.

[Hesiod]

17 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

In terms of restitution, I believe (and I'm not a lawyer) that's a completely separate case. If I were the buyer, I would demand it only if the coin was forcibly repatriated, but that's another case and as it has already been mentioned a) will be tricky to prove the coins were in fact looted and b) it's not obvious to which country to repatriate it.

Of the 3 coins mentioned in the complaint, one of them has already been repatriated. See the manhattan DA press release here: https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-14-stolen-antiquities-to-italy/

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

3 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Of the 3 coins mentioned in the complaint, one of them has already been repatriated. See the manhattan DA press release here: https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-14-stolen-antiquities-to-italy/

From the article:

Among the pieces being returned today include:

• The Sicily Naxos Coin. Minted circa 430 B.C.E in the Greek colony of Naxos, on Sicily, this silver coin features the bearded Dionysus on one side and his squatting drinking partner, Silenus, on the reverse. The Sicily Naxos Coin first surfaced on the international art market in 2013, when a known trafficker offered the coin for sale with no provenance whatsoever. Prior to its appearance at a London-based auction house, a co-conspirator of the trafficker supplied false provenance for the coin. The Sicily Naxos Coin is currently valued at $500,000 and was among a group of coins seized at JFK airport as it was being smuggled into New York pursuant to an ongoing joint investigation between this Office, HSI, and Italy. At least one individual has been arrested in the course of this investigation with more to follow.

[kirispupis]

14 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

From the article:

Among the pieces being returned today include:

• The Sicily Naxos Coin. Minted circa 430 B.C.E in the Greek colony of Naxos, on Sicily, this silver coin features the bearded Dionysus on one side and his squatting drinking partner, Silenus, on the reverse. The Sicily Naxos Coin first surfaced on the international art market in 2013, when a known trafficker offered the coin for sale with no provenance whatsoever. Prior to its appearance at a London-based auction house, a co-conspirator of the trafficker supplied false provenance for the coin. The Sicily Naxos Coin is currently valued at $500,000 and was among a group of coins seized at JFK airport as it was being smuggled into New York pursuant to an ongoing joint investigation between this Office, HSI, and Italy. At least one individual has been arrested in the course of this investigation with more to follow.

That doesn't alter my previous statement that the fraud of misstated provenance and repatriating the items are completely separate.

Obviously it's much easier to determine the origin for the Naxos stater than the Eid Mar.

[Heliodromus]

14 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Obviously it's much easier to determine the origin for the Naxos stater than the Eid Mar.

In what sense? Is anything known about where it came from? Do where know to where and/or to who they are "repatriating" it ?

[Hesiod]

4 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

In what sense? Is anything known about where it came from? Do where know to where and/or to who they are "repatriating" it ?

Well, to my understanding the naxos tet should only come from sicily, italy; so they'd be repatriating it to Italy. The eid mar is a bit more difficult, as to my understanding we're not sure exactly where it was minted, supposedly either Greece or western Turkey. So, it is a bit more difficult to know who we would be repatriating the eid mar to.

[John Conduitt]

5 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Well, to my understanding the naxos tet should only come from sicily, italy; so they'd be repatriating it to Italy. The eid mar is a bit more difficult, as to my understanding we're not sure exactly where it was minted, supposedly either Greece or western Turkey. So, it is a bit more difficult to know who we would be repatriating the eid mar to.

Like we need Greece and Turkey fighting over it.

[Heliodromus]

18 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Well, to my understanding the naxos tet should only come from sicily, italy; so they'd be repatriating it to Italy. The eid mar is a bit more difficult, as to my understanding we're not sure exactly where it was minted, supposedly either Greece or western Turkey. So, it is a bit more difficult to know who we would be repatriating the eid mar to.

So "repatriation" really means "return to country where it was made", not to country where found (if known), or owner of land from where it was looted etc (in country's where it's not automatically state owns everything) ?

Edited March 7, 2023 by Heliodromus

[Ricardo123]

6 hours ago, Brennos said:

but i understood that it was Richard Beale who bought the coin few years before offering it for auction...

[Hesiod]

6 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

So "repatriation" really means "return to country where it was made", not to country where found (if known), or owner of land from where it was looted etc (in country's where it's not automatically state owns everything)

I don't think the DA has released what evidence they're basing these off of, but in the past for antiquities they've cross referenced items against polaroids taken from known looters warehouses/uncleaned items/etc. I would think they have some kind of evidence beyond "this coin is from Italy with no known provenance" but I don't know if they've shared any of it publicly as of yet. A FOIA request may reveal more info, but I haven't filed one

[Hrefn]

Humble thanks to all who noted my assumption that the Naxos tetradrachm came from the island of Naxos rather than the colony of Naxos in Sicily, also named Naxos, and charitably said nothing.  

 

[kirispupis]

10 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

So "repatriation" really means "return to country where it was made", not to country where found (if known), or owner of land from where it was looted etc (in country's where it's not automatically state owns everything) ?

The Naxos stater was obviously minted in Italy. Although I'm not overly familiar with this issue, I would expect it's range of use to have been Sicily and the Greek cities in Italy. I expect it would have been quite rare elsewhere. Therefore, Italy would have a natural claim of it.

The Eid Mar has no such certainty. We're still not exactly sure in whose borders it was minted, nor where exactly its range of use was. We also don't even know if this coin was purchased by someone in the US and who has it. If the buyer was in Russia or China, then they're probably SOL.

One other thing is the Naxos coin (and others) were confiscated at customs. Obviously they were purchased by a US buyer and US customs has nearly unlimited control in seizing what they want. I expect it would have been a far different case if the coins were already in possession of the individual. Come to think of it, I don't recall a case where coins weren't a) seized at customs OR b) voluntarily repatriated. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I would expect the seizing country would have to provide overwhelming proof that the object was stolen in order for it to be forcibly removed from someone's possession.

[Hesiod]

20 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

Humble thanks to all who noted my assumption that the Naxos tetradrachm came from the island of Naxos rather than the colony of Naxos in Sicily, also named Naxos, and charitably said nothing.  

 

I didn't parse your other post (those posts having been posted when I was asleep and mostly having skimmed the postings), but it's a fair mistake to make, as the island of Naxos also minted coinage (staters with kantharos).

[Hesiod]

6 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

. We also don't even know if this coin was purchased by someone in the US and who has it.

Roma/Beale certainly knows. But depending on the purchasing country, it may not be possible to recover.

[akeady]

26 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Roma/Beale certainly knows. But depending on the purchasing country, it may not be possible to recover.

If you read the document on the first page of this thread, it says the Eid Mar was shipped to the US  on 29th Nov. 2020 (i.e., a month after the auction).   Therefore, I assume it had a US-based buyer and indeed that US Customs seized the Eid Mar then.

ATB,

Aidan.