Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[Kaleun96]

Saw this on the r/AncientCoins subreddit earlier today and it seems like something that people here should be made aware of if they're not already:

The reddit thread links to an arrest report that you can find here:

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcrim_attorney/Detail?which=case&docketNumber=yY1xDZ9cEK4QwpkxjBVP_PLUS_g==&countyId=ftUCLXxA/VgUxT4CDSVwBw==&docketId=bbI5Xbl0IVgJ8btvEQGu9g==&docketDseq=o6PDyKIx4BvSfbvyCgDnHw==&defendantName=Beale,+Richard&court=New+York+Criminal+Court&courtType=L&recordType=C&recordNum=Wv8WzRIFOL4jek_PLUS_QRTW74Q==

The details provided there seem to line-up with this press release from the Manhattan DA:

https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-14-stolen-antiquities-to-italy/

And you can find photos of the Naxos coin sold by Roma in the background of these photos:

[Deinomenid]

I'd been hearing very similar specifically about the Eid Mar for the past few days  but didn't comment on it as  I could  not find anything  online.

Felt bad because  I wasn't alerting people but  wasn't  wholly  sure it was correct.

[Kali]

Wow, I am shocked, and I have several coins from Roma too.

[Deinomenid]

I'll choose my words carefully, but if  I owned a high end  coin with let's say family provenance but NOT a clear auction record way back from a certain  house  I'd be worried about repatriation.

i say  high-end  because I presume the risk reward  means high-end provenance "help"  is more tempting. 

Innocent until proven guilty  in any specific case.

 

 

[Restitutor]

Hi Everyone / I just want to preemptively chime in here as this subject is incredibly delicate. While discussion's on the coins themselves is germane to this forum, let’s please minimize any discussion around the individual(s) involved. As we say, innocent until proven guilty, and I don’t want the forum to become a place to speculate on any individuals guilt or otherwise, as it could open up a Pandora’s box of legal stuff that benefits no one. 
 

Thanks,

Res

[kirispupis]

Roma is one of my primary suppliers, though none of my coins are high end, and I've had a few (friendly) back-and-forths with Richard in the past. In terms of the case, as others have stated, we should let it progress to better understand the facts.

On a broader level, my fear is that cases like this will only increase the pressure to end ancient coin collecting completely. The problem is the general person (and more importantly the politician) do not differentiate between a $1M unique find and a $10 late Roman, nor do they consider that the majority of coins on the market come from existing collections and were not looted.

[ominus1]

32 minutes ago, Restitutor said:

germane

...man...not to change the subject, but that word i heard the other day for the 1st time on an old early Perry Mason by Hamilton Burger....kool word ...:D

[Kaleun96]

28 minutes ago, Restitutor said:

Hi Everyone / I just want to preemptively chime in here as this subject is incredibly delicate. While discussion's on the coins themselves is germane to this forum, let’s please minimize any discussion around the individual(s) involved. As we say, innocent until proven guilty, and I don’t want the forum to become a place to speculate on any individuals guilt or otherwise, as it could open up a Pandora’s box of legal stuff that benefits no one. 
 

Thanks,

Res

I agree, keep it to the facts known or what has been reported. Speculation about individuals isn't a good idea at this stage.

Nonetheless, things aren't looking good based solely on the facts. A statement of facts signed by one of the HSI Special Agents is floating around some numismatic communities and lays out some unfortunate accusations that would be quite devastating if true. According to these documents, much of the accused crimes were admitted to by the defendant. This involves not only the Naxos tetradrachm but also the Eid Mar aureus and several Alexander decadrachms from the Gaza hoard. I don't see any reason for these documents to be fake but I also don't know how one can access them publicly so for now I won't personally share them here but someone else is free to.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Kaleun96

[filolif]

This information was posted elsewhere and I believe it to be public. This is the factual basis for the charges per the New York Criminal Court. I am in no way speculating about the guilt or innocence of the people in question based off of this information.

Edited March 6, 2023 by filolif
Formatting

[Väinämöinen]

This topic has been floating around for a while and it's surprising that it didn't break through into the "mainstream" before this. Loose lips sink ships, I guess, and everyone wanting to secure their positions and not to be seen as the one to leak the information. 

I am worried about the consequences of these events for the hobby. Not only are we seeing involvement from a major auction house and regarding one of the most significant ancient coins ever sold, but even numismatic academia is being involved by proxy. 

[velarfricative]

"The defendant admitted to me that he paid for the provenance". Well, that doesn't sound very good at all.

[John Conduitt]

Well, I'm glad I have no coins from "an old Swiss Collection". Who knew? There are a few "Ex Vecchi" coins about, too.

[Prieure de Sion]

This is generally not good news. Humanly, for the numismatic scene, for collectors, for dealers, for auction houses... not good. Not good at all.

The problem is - as always - there will be enough politicians and responsible people who want to "bask" in these things. They will call for punishments and restrictions in order to gain some media time and populism (without really being interested in the matter at hand).

[Deinomenid]

It's a slippery slope I guess,. I've railed (ranted) often - on these pages too - about some houses selling fakes knowingly and openly including ones with the British Museum identifier crudely drilled off and seriously worry  if for a relative pittance some  houses are willing to openly contaminate the market, what else might they do. This isn't an abstract concern and I'm hopefully not conflating issues. There's clear pressure from vocal and influential groups to hugely limit or stop the trade in ancients. This sort of stuff doesn't help.

This tale  is attributed to George Bernard Shaw and Churchill as well as  Lord Beaverbrook but  it is germane (ha!)

“They are telling this of Lord Beaverbrook and a visiting Yankee actress. In a game of hypothetical questions, Beaverbrook asked the lady: ‘Would you sleep with a stranger if he paid you one million pounds?’ She said she would. ‘And if he paid you five pounds?’ The irate lady fumed: ‘Five pounds. What do you think I am?’ Beaverbrook replied: ‘We’ve already established that. Now we are trying to determine  your price.”

My hope is that the price is high, but I fear not.

 

 

 

[John Conduitt]

25 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

This is generally not good news. Humanly, for the numismatic scene, for collectors, for dealers, for auction houses... not good. Not good at all.

The problem is - as always - there will be enough politicians and responsible people who want to "bask" in these things. They will call for punishments and restrictions in order to gain some media time and populism (without really being interested in the matter at hand).

At some level, this is what should happen. If you are taking something out of the country or not, you need to prove you have the right to sell it. It doesn't suggest tighter restrictions are needed to do that.

[Prieure de Sion]

Just now, John Conduitt said:

At some level, this is what should happen. If you are taking something out of the country or not, you need to prove you have the right to sell it. It doesn't suggest tighter restrictions are needed to do that.

That would also be fine if something like this were implemented sensibly - by experts!

But - I know I'm repeating myself - unfortunately it's "experts" in the form of politicians who want better publicity again - and only take on the issue because of the publicity - but who have no idea about the matter! And they then make decisions - which the people who have to deal with them do not understand and can only shake their heads at.

I know this only too well from the area of "video games". Whenever there is a discussion here, politicians speak up - who have never played a real PC or console video game in their lives. But suddenly they are experts and know why, why and why. 

[Molag Bal]

Very unfortunate. I hope things go as well as they can for Mr. Beale but it doesn't sound good. 

Roma has auctions scheduled later this month. If the arrest happened in January they must intend to go through with them since they went up on the website just a few days ago. There were a couple coins I was interested in but I am not sure I feel comfortable now. A shame because I have only ever had good experiences with the company. 

[John Conduitt]

7 minutes ago, Molag Bal said:

Very unfortunate. I hope things go as well as they can for Mr. Beale but it doesn't sound good. 

Roma has auctions scheduled later this month. If the arrest happened in January they must intend to go through with them since they went up on the website just a few days ago. There were a couple coins I was interested in but I am not sure I feel comfortable now. A shame because I have only ever had good experiences with the company. 

I think the important moment would be if he's convicted. He's the only director of the company, and would have to resign, yet owns at least 75% of the business.

[Deinomenid]

And this does raise the possibility of what happens  to "us". Presumably the poor sods who  bought the now-confiscated coins want their money back, and Roma might or  might be able or wish to  pay. Even if the court case goes nowhere.

 

Hypothetically, there's  more than a zero chance that a sensible  director in such a situation would close rather than meet the liability or have the company closed  on   him or her.  Regardless of guilt.   In this sort of case those who bought (paid for but  had not received)  coins or had coins consigned (physically delivered to a company in such a position but  not paid for) might find themselves rather stuck.  I'd be a slightly nervous consigner in such a hypothetical, and only a cash-on-delivery purchaser.

 

 

 

[Harry G]

That's a shame - I've bought and sold a lot with Roma in the past, and they've always been excellent.

I'm curious - where does the burden of proof lie in cases like this? Would the individual have to prove that the coins were from a legitimate source, or is it the authorities job to show otherwise?

[Cinco71]

Whoever bought those mega high-end coins must be feeling absolutely sick right now.  That is unless they are so incredibly rich that having to return those coins wouldn't dent their lifestyle.  

That said, what are the chances that Roma's records would be scoured and letters sent out to people who bought other coins that Italy or Turkey, or where ever, might want to make a claim on?

[velarfricative]

25 minutes ago, Harry G said:

That's a shame - I've bought and sold a lot with Roma in the past, and they've always been excellent.

I'm curious - where does the burden of proof lie in cases like this? Would the individual have to prove that the coins were from a legitimate source, or is it the authorities job to show otherwise?

Well, in the case of the Eid Mar or the Gaza coins or the Naxos, Beale has told them the source; there's not really any recourse there.

[DonnaML]

@Harry G, I did not practice criminal law during my 37 years as a litigation attorney. But the principles are sufficiently similar to civil cases that I'm confident in saying that it's the prosecution's initial burden to show that the stated provenance was false. Apparently, this has already been admitted. It's then up to the defendant to assert and prove some sort of defense. 

Anyone who thinks that "innocent until proven guilty" is a reason not to discuss this case or offer opinions on the charges is under a misapprehension: that phrase is simply an evidentiary principle relating to burden of proof, and applies only in court. It has no bearing on the press or on public opinions outside court, and, while obviously we shouldn't assume guilt, we're all entitled to form opinions based on the evidence released to date, and express them publicly. Doing so doesn't prejudice the defendant in any way, and I doubt that this case will receive enough publicity that the jury pool is going to be tainted by public discussion, should the case go to trial.

So I think I can safely say, having read the documents -- and keeping in mind the previous success rate in such cases of the office prosecuting him -- that it looks absolutely terrible for Mr. Beale. (No wonder I didn't see him at Roma's table at NYINC!) I assume he's back in the UK, and not languishing in jail here in New York? I doubt he's considered a flight risk. The best outcome for him would probably be to try avoiding a prison term by pleading guilty to something, making restitution of his allegedly ill-gotten gains, and perhaps agreeing to sell Roma and not engage in the numismatics business for a stated period of time. The problem is, what or whom can he give up in exchange for leniency? 

I actually feel most sorry at the moment for our own @Barnaba6, who just made the decision to switch to Roma to auction some of his Probus and Aurelian collection on March 16; see his thread at https://www.numisforums.com/topic/3684-my-selected-probus-and-aurelian-coins-on-auction-by-roma-numismatics-on-the-16-march-2023/#comment-43726 .

I was planning to bid on some of the Probus coins in that auction. Does anyone think I should be concerned about any coins I should happen to win actually reaching me in the USA?

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by DonnaML

[Deinomenid]

@DonnaML

I know something of UK (yes I know  NY is not in the UK 😀)  law and more especially the bankruptcy process so tried to obliquely address that concern in  my post just above. I would be a worried consigner and a cash on delivery ONLY purchaser.

 

I have no idea whatsoever as to where Mr Beale is  but the initial post says or rather links  to a court doc saying where he should be  on Wednesday.

Next Appearance

• Date:March 8, 2023 
• Time:09:00 AM 

[kirispupis]

If I recall, a founder for Leu went through a similar issue some years ago. I don't believe he did any jail time, but had to restitute some coins, pay a fine, and write a public apology. I think he's still involved with Leu, though may be wrong there.