Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[John Conduitt]

7 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

@DonnaML

I know something of UK (yes I know  NY is not in the UK 😀)  law and more especially the bankruptcy process so tried to obliquely address that concern in  my post just above. I would be a worried consigner and a cash on delivery ONLY purchaser.

 

I have no idea whatsoever as to where Mr Beale is  but the initial post says or rather links  to a court doc saying where he should be  on Wednesday.

Next Appearance

• Date:March 8, 2023 
• Time:09:00 AM 

Would it help to close the business? The charges are against the individual. The company would be vicariously liable, but closing the company wouldn't help the individual, unlike in situations where the charges are against the company.

[akeady]

15 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

If I recall, a founder for Leu went through a similar issue some years ago. I don't believe he did any jail time, but had to restitute some coins, pay a fine, and write a public apology. I think he's still involved with Leu, though may be wrong there.

It was a Dr Arnold-Peter Weiss, the then-owner of Nomos.   I don't think he's still involved with Nomos.

https://www.coinworld.com/news/world-coins/weiss-enters-guilty-plea-on-confiscated-coins.html

ATB,
Aidan.

[Phil Davis]

16 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

If I recall, a founder for Leu went through a similar issue some years ago. I don't believe he did any jail time, but had to restitute some coins, pay a fine, and write a public apology. I think he's still involved with Leu, though may be wrong there.

You're thinking of Peter Weiss of Nomos, not Leu.

[DonnaML]

19 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

@DonnaML

I know something of UK (yes I know  NY is not in the UK 😀)  law and more especially the bankruptcy process so tried to obliquely address that concern in  my post just above. I would be a worried consigner and a cash on delivery ONLY purchaser.

I would agree that under US law as well, should the company declare bankruptcy between the time I purchased coins and the time they were sent to me, I would probably be out of luck as a mere unsecured creditor who would have to stand in line behind many others before receiving a refund. None of us knows how much money and other assets are actually still in the company, regardless of the amount of revenues taken in over the years from coin sales in buyers' and consignors' commissions, and in sales prices from coins they actually owned. We have no idea what their costs have been, and whether the owner(s) have taken money out of the company.

[robinjojo]

I've always felt that much of the "provenance" provided in the past, as vague as they can be, is given with a wink and a nod.  In other words, in this world of rapid transactions of coins whose origins are vague and can be topics of debate from now until the end of recorded time, there has been an implicit understanding that attribution in any precise way is problematic.  It is really an ongoing muddle. 

I am sure that the commerce of ancient coins will continue and thrive in this world of dollars, pounds, euros, swiss francs, renminbi and yen pursuing havens of wealth.  I think what has happened is regrettable, and that the legal process will play out. 

I assume that the theft charge is based on the coins of an allegedly looted 2017 hoard from Gaza. It will be interesting to see what evidence is presented on this count.

Edited March 6, 2023 by robinjojo

[Kaleun96]

27 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Anyone who thinks that "innocent until proven guilty" is a reason not to discuss this case or offer opinions on the charges is under a misapprehension: that phrase is simply an evidentiary principle relating to burden of proof, and applies only in court. It has no bearing on the press or on public opinions outside court, and, while obviously we shouldn't assume guilt, we're all entitled to form opinions based on the evidence released to date, and express them publicly. Doing so doesn't prejudice the defendant in any way, and I doubt that this case will receive enough publicity that the jury pool is going to be tainted by public discussion, should the case go to trial.

Absolutely, and seeing as Roma have not been forthcoming about their predicament (understandable) but decided to power on ahead with their sales anyway (questionable), I think it's all the more important that the facts of the case as known are shared with and discussed by collectors who may be clients of Roma and likely to bid under normal circumstances in their auctions.

[Deinomenid]

@John Conduitt I'd close, assuming no moral considerations. In such a situation there's a  lot of  money that  needs  to flow. Even if there's  no guilt there's a  bunch of money that needs to be repaid to the coin purchasers. Why bother? It's a limited liability entity. Presumably  it paid  out the then-assumed-profits.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06757815/filing-history

It's got 200k of book value.

 

@DonnaML re no-one knows what assets are left, I linked to Companies  House, which  is the UK repository for such things, and while they are  out of date and could be incorrect for all sorts of reasons, even as shown there's not a lot there.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Deinomenid
typo etc

[DonnaML]

7 minutes ago, Phil Davis said:

You're thinking of Peter Weiss of Nomos, not Leu.

And he's still associated with Nomos, as I mentioned in my post about the Rhodes coin I purchased from Nomos at NYINC. Which came from his personal collection. You're correct that he didn't serve time, and instead made restitution and wrote a public apology. But keep in mind that his conduct would probably be considered less egregious than what's alleged here, and also that his professional stature and reputation -- entirely outside the field of numismatics -- were far more stellar than that of the individual charged in this case.

[DonnaML]

11 minutes ago, akeady said:

It was a Dr Arnold-Peter Weiss, the then-owner of Nomos.   I don't think he's still involved with Nomos.

https://www.coinworld.com/news/world-coins/weiss-enters-guilty-plea-on-confiscated-coins.html

ATB,
Aidan.

He is. Look at their website. He was at the Nomos table at NYINC in January.

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

 

I’m looking forward to see how they are going to prove that. In 2006, an Eid Mar denarius was  seized in London under the « European Union Directive 93/7 » and brought back to the Greek government because of it  provenance; it was only the fifth coin of this type to have a Hellenistic provenance.

[DonnaML]

11 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

@John Conduitt I'd close, assuming no moral considerations. In such a situation there's a  lot of  money that  needs  to flow. Even if there's  no guilt there's a  bunch of money that needs to be repaid to the coin purchasers. Why bother? It's a limited liability entity. Presumably  it paid  out the then-assumed-profits.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06757815/filing-history

It's got 200k of book value.

 

@DonnaML re no-one knows what assets are left, I linked to Companies  House, which  is the UK repository for such things, and while they are  out of date and could be incorrect for all sorts of reasons, even as shown there's not a lot there.

 

 

 

 

I wonder what the defendant's personal financial statement looks like, and if he's capable of paying restitution from his own assets. Of course, that wouldn't help me much if I bought coins from Roma and didn't receive them: my claim, in or out of bankruptcy, would be against the company, not against Mr. Beale individually. Presumably, to the extent he took money or other assets out of the company prior to any declaration of bankruptcy, the bankruptcy trustee would have a claim against him on the company's behalf for recoupment. 

[DonnaML]

In retrospect, maybe it was a wise choice for CNG's auction description of the Diocletian gold denio (10 aurei) medallion from the Aquilea mint, sold as Lot 830 in January's CNG Triton XXVI auction for an enormous sum, to omit entirely any mention of provenance, something I questioned at the time. Certainly better than pulling the "old collection of an English gentleman" trick.

[akeady]

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

He is. Look at their website. He was at the Nomos table at NYINC in January.

Ah, right you are 🙂

ATB,

Aidan.

[Severus Alexander]

First, to be clear: I have no sympathy with attempts to defraud.

But I think it should be noted that contributing in a major way to the deplorable situation that arose here are the absolutely asinine antiquities laws, MOU's etc. prevalent in the countries desperately trying (and failing) to protect or repatriate their heritage.  The Italian, Greek, and Turkish governments are part of the problem, not simply injured parties.

Three cheers, as usual, for the UK's portable antiquities scheme and treasure trove laws, which benefit all concerned and help prevent this kind of nonsense and wrongdoing.

[KenDorney]

Interesting, but little for us to really get into at the moment.  I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how they will prove the coin was 'stolen'.  They must have some sort of irrefutable provenance?  Without it the state will have a tough time getting conviction on the larceny and possession charges.  The conspiracy and fraud charges presumably are specifically relating to the provenance under which the coins were sold.  None of us know that scenario really, and that may also be hard to convict.  Just too little we know at the moment, but I read the charges in detail on Facebook and the prosecution seems very sure of themselves.

 

[Hesiod]

12 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

None of us know that scenario really, and that may also be hard to convict.  Just too little we know at the moment, but I read the charges in detail on Facebook and the prosecution seems very sure of themselves.

 

A lot of the time they seem to have photos of the items being stolen from an archaeological site/pre-restored/in a known looter's warehouses for antiquities, somehow. Manhattan DA seems to have a really good success rate normally doing these types of prosecutions (seems they do it when they're quite certain?). No idea about the coins, time will tell I suppose.

[idesofmarch01]

3 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how they will prove the coin was 'stolen'.  They must have some sort of irrefutable provenance? 

I, too, have been having the same difficulty understanding this specific point ever since I read the ADA's filing over a week ago.

There are four Informants on whom the complaint relies, but none of these informants actually claims to own the coins in question or specify who the owner is.  Implicitly, the ownership thus seems to be the country of Greece for the Eid Mar aureus, and Italy for the Naxos tetradrachm.  But again, I'm not sure that this is legally correct.  Can theft and fraud be asserted in a criminal case without specifically stating from whom the theft occurred?  Can anyone clarify this issue?

[Severus Alexander]

3 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

 Implicitly, the ownership thus seems to be the country of Greece for the Eid Mar aureus, and Italy for the Naxos tetradrachm.  But again, I'm not sure that this is legally correct.

Or morally correct. Supposing the antiquities laws in Greece and Italy to be unjust (as many of us maintain), what duty is there to render unto Italy what Italy speciously claims to be theirs?

[DonnaML]

I think if they can prove that the defendant paid someone to create a fake provenance, that may be enough for the finder of fact to be permitted to draw an inference that he received stolen property. He could remain silent, but if he has a legitimate explanation it would be wise for him to present it in his defense.

[KenDorney]

6 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

Can theft and fraud be asserted in a criminal case without specifically stating from whom the theft occurred?  Can anyone clarify this issue?

It seems likely that they are simply assuming that without a specific provenance these coins must have been illegally found/looted/exported/etc and as such belong to the likely governments.  But again, how could they possibly prove that?  I'm not defending any shenanigans but it seems impossible that they could prove anything.  And if they do convict this has very serious ramifications for all of us since 99% of all coins and antiquities have no provenance whatsoever.

[KenDorney]

2 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I think if they can prove that the defendant paid someone to create a fake provenance, that may be enough for the finder of fact to be permitted to draw an inference that he received stolen property. He could remain silent, but if he has a legitimate explanation it would be wise for him to present it in his defense.

True, but he could also simply say he was creating some mystique in order to boost hammer prices.  Not much better of course, but I'm sure he can come up with a defense to that charge.

[Ryro]

I hope Richard gets out of this tight situation. As I recall, he is a self made man, and an actual lover of ancients and not just some wealthy trust fund baby turning a buck. He used to post on an old site often and was passionate.

The laws in place are bogus. Fuck the politicians who write these laws to line their pockets and especially the police posing in those pictures, like they just brought down a heroin syndicat.

As a buyer, I don't like being lied to. But don't site Mr Beal. Come on, you should ALWAYS assume the "from an old European collection... blah blah" are total bullshit. He was trying to skirt a law that keeps politicians wealthy and creates this type of market and behavior.

Good for you, Richard! I hope their evidence is sweaty, you don't roll over on whomever you got the coins from and, most importantly for my greedy addiction, you stay in business!

Edited March 6, 2023 by Ryro

[velarfricative]

Just now, KenDorney said:

True, but he could also simply say he was creating some mystique in order to boost hammer prices.  Not much better of course, but I'm sure he can come up with a defense to that charge.

100,000 CHF is a lot of money, it's hard to imagine that embellishing a provenance would be worth that. In any case, he admitted to knowingly possessing and selling coins from the Gaza hoard, which are definitely looted.

[DonnaML]

9 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

It seems likely that they are simply assuming that without a specific provenance these coins must have been illegally found/looted/exported/etc and as such belong to the likely governments.  But again, how could they possibly prove that?  I'm not defending any shenanigans but it seems impossible that they could prove anything.  And if they do convict this has very serious ramifications for all of us since 99% of all coins and antiquities have no provenance whatsoever.

See my comment above. It's not often that there's apparently proof of payment to create a fake provenance. There's such a thing as a permissible inference. Any claim that he paid a large sum for that just to boost the market is not likely to be believed  by a jury. Maybe there is a credible innocent explanation, but I think you are way underestimating the trouble he's in.

Edited March 6, 2023 by DonnaML

[Kaleun96]

8 minutes ago, Ryro said:

As a buyer, I don't like being lied to. But don't site Mr Beal. Come on, you should ALWAYS assume the "from an old European collection... blah blah" are total bullshit. He was trying to skirt a law that keeps politicians wealthy and creates this type of market and behavior.

Did you read the statement of facts signed by the special agent? This is not a matter of "from an old European collection", it's a matter of trying to pay someone 100,000 CHF to falsify the provenance of a coin that subsequently hammered for 2.7M GBP. They supposedly didn't make up some random family provenance from the 60s either, they gave it a fancy 19th century Austrian royal court provenance. Undeniably, that would have a chance of affecting the hammer price, i.e. making Roma Numismatics more money, i.e. committing fraud.

Some of these crimes Beale is accused of have nothing to do with bad antiquities laws, they're straight up fraud.

Quote

Richard! I hope their evidence is sweaty, you don't roll over on whomever you got the coins from

Too late for that:

Edited March 6, 2023 by Kaleun96