Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[idesofmarch01]

3 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

100,000 CHF is a lot of money, it's hard to imagine that embellishing a provenance would be worth that. In any case, he admitted to knowingly possessing and selling coins from the Gaza hoard, which are definitely looted.

But the complaint doesn't assert that these two coins were looted from the Gaza hoard, though -- at least not as far as I read the complaint.  So citing this prior history appears to be simply an attempt to cast aspersions on one of the individuals, rather than being specifically relevant to the case.

 

[zadie]

[JimBranson]

 

 

[kirispupis]

10 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Some of these crimes Beale is accused of have nothing to do with bad antiquities laws, they're straight up fraud.

 

You hit on the head something I've been thinking: this isn't really an issue related to collecting ancient coins. Had someone broken into someone's house, stolen several double eagles, and then Richard falsified their provenance, the crime would have been the same.

The real legal issue here isn't whether the coins were looted or not. It's the fact that the provenance was most definitely not what was stated in the auction, and therefore they committed fraud.

Presumably there will be someone who will want to repatriate those coins, though they'll have to first figure out whether that means Italy, Greece, or Turkey. However, from what I can tell that will be an entirely different legal case and it seems possible they may never be repatriated.

[DonnaML]

6 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

 

 

Please explain what you're implying. You're being far too cryptic for me.

[Hesiod]

2 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Please explain what you're implying. You're being far too cryptic for me.

A facebook photo of Beale together with the contact for the Gaza Dekadrachm hoard (from the BBC documentary) at NYInc together; seems like he's implying they're working together

[zadie]

3 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Please explain what you're implying. You're being far too cryptic for me.

[Severus Alexander]

As I see it, there are two separate issues here, connected with multiple charges. 1) Fraudulent provenance.  This deceives buyers and is clearly wrong, both legally and morally.  2) Theft.  Here's where the grey areas enter due to the unjust antiquities laws.

There is a possible connection between the two: maybe the fraudulent provenance was obtained, in part, to evade the unjust antiquities laws.  That could be a mitigating factor.  (Compare: nobody would complain about faked "provenances" for slaves stolen from their masters, and subsequently freed!)  However, unless the false provenance was revealed to all the bidders on the coin, this does little to mitigate the fact that buyers were deceived.  Whether the laws are unjust or not, a buyer opens themselves up to the possibility of confiscation.

That's why I said I had zero sympathy for fraud.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Severus Alexander

[DonnaML]

34 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

 

Vecchi is a dealer in Italy? If the alleged transaction with the UK defendant took place in Italy or the UK, it may not be possible to compel his testimony in the US courts. Interesting that he wasn't charged himself.

[Al Kowsky]

I've been helping my older sister the last few weeks who was hospitalized with a number of health problems & busy with a work project, but had to chime in on this thread. If anyone forgot what the two main coins looked like here are photos.

Over the years I've bought many coins from Roma Numismatics LTD & Italo Vecchi, & some of those coins were expensive & some I resold. Now I'm wondering if I should use the provenance Ex Roma Numismatics Ltd  & Italo Vecchi 🤫? Are these past acquisitions now tainted to the point where collectors will avoid acquiring them 🤫? I stopped buying coins from overseas dealers when we had to obtain import licenses a couple of years ago, what a pain in the ass that was 😠. All these legal entanglements certainly aren't good for the hobby....

[kirispupis]

9 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said:

Over the years I've bought many coins from Roma Numismatics LTD & Italo Vecchi, & some of those coins were expensive & some I resold. Now I'm wondering if I should use the provenance Ex Roma Numismatics Ltd  & Italo Vecchi 🤫? 

Maybe we should change our coins to include the provenance: ex collection of the Baron Dominique de Chambrier?

[akeady]

10 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Please explain what you're implying. You're being far too cryptic for me.

 

This BBC investigation is the background to it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-d4a6df1b-995d-4d0d-a562-43bd47b86afb

Edited March 7, 2023 by akeady
Fixed link

[DLTcoins]

Alleged fraud is one thing and should have no place in the industry or hobby. That said, turning to the standard of proof for "looting" and heritage crime more broadly, consider the case of this $1.3 million Etruscan vase that the Met was forced to repatriate in 2008 after Italy claimed it was recently looted. Now 15 years later, a 19th-century copy of the same vase has turned up, suggesting the original vase's appearance is not so recent after all. Oops!

https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/michele-basso-vatican-monsignor-art-collection-1234656084/

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Hrefn]

These patrimony laws are based on flights of fancy, or on greed.   It is pretty difficult to draw a line from ancient Naxos to modern Athens.  If Venice still controlled Naxos, as it did for five centuries, would the lawyers be petitioning for the repatriation of the coin to Venice?  Of course they would.  Why would the Venetian claim be inferior to that of Athens?   Naxos has been part of the Kingdom, now Republic, of Hellas for only two centuries;  Venice could boast of half a millennium.  

If the sentiments of the people of ancient Naxos could be taken into account, recall that they attempted to break away from the Athenian-dominated Delian league, and paid a heavy price for the attempt.  They would be very displeased to see their coinage in the hands of their oppressors.  

But Modern Italy is not Ancient Rome,  France is not any of the three parts of Gaul, the UK is not Wessex, and modern Greece is not any of the Ancient Greek city states.  Still less is Turkey Byzantium, nor Gaza whatever past culture they are claiming to be heirs of, to lay a claim to ancient coins found in their boundaries.  Gaza itself was part of Egypt when I was young, and the notion of Gaza as a separate polity had never occurred to anybody.  A nonexistent country cannot assert a legal right to anything.  Anything repatriated to Gaza would have gone straight to the Cairo museum.  

[DLTcoins]

1 hour ago, Hrefn said:

These patrimony laws are based on flights of fancy, or on greed.   It is pretty difficult to draw a line from ancient Naxos to modern Athens.  If Venice still controlled Naxos, as it did for five centuries, would the lawyers be petitioning for the repatriation of the coin to Venice?  Of course they would.  Why would the Venetian claim be inferior to that of Athens?   Naxos has been part of the Kingdom, now Republic, of Hellas for only two centuries;  Venice could boast of half a millennium.  

If the sentiments of the people of ancient Naxos could be taken into account, recall that they attempted to break away from the Athenian-dominated Delian league, and paid a heavy price for the attempt.  They would be very displeased to see their coinage in the hands of their oppressors.  

But Modern Italy is not Ancient Rome,  France is not any of the three parts of Gaul, the UK is not Wessex, and modern Greece is not any of the Ancient Greek city states.  Still less is Turkey Byzantium, nor Gaza whatever past culture they are claiming to be heirs of, to lay a claim to ancient coins found in their boundaries.  Gaza itself was part of Egypt when I was young, and the notion of Gaza as a separate polity had never occurred to anybody.  A nonexistent country cannot assert a legal right to anything.  Anything repatriated to Gaza would have gone straight to the Cairo museum.  

The 1970 UNESCO Convention which regulates the international trade in "cultural property" deems current national borders as the determinant, without regard to historical cultural affinity. It carries the force of law in most of the world. The oft-discussed memoranda of understanding are the practical implementation of the Convention. You can read the actual text here:

https://www.unesco.org/en/legal-affairs/convention-means-prohibiting-and-preventing-illicit-import-export-and-transfer-ownership-cultural

Edited March 7, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Kaleun96]

7 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Vecchi is a dealer in Italy? If the alleged transaction with the UK defendant took place in Italy or the UK, it may not be possible to compel his testimony in the US courts. Interesting that he wasn't charged himself.

I think Italo Vecchi is based in London these days, he's employed by Roma as a consultant specialist too. Based on the information in the affidavit, it seems possible he could be at risk of being arrested in the UK and extradited to the US - or would the alleged crimes not warrant that?

[Kaleun96]

8 hours ago, idesofmarch01 said:

But the complaint doesn't assert that these two coins were looted from the Gaza hoard, though -- at least not as far as I read the complaint.  So citing this prior history appears to be simply an attempt to cast aspersions on one of the individuals, rather than being specifically relevant to the case.

It seems the DA is charging Beale in relation to three coins: the Naxos tetradrachm, the Eid Mar aureus, and one of the Gaza dekadrachms. The Special Agent mentions the five Gaza dekadrachms in general for context but it's just one of these, which sold at Roma in 2018 and then again in 2022, which seems to be the cause for one count from each of the Grand Larceny, CPSP, and Conspiracy charges.

The Gaza dekadrachms are undoubtedly "looted" in the sense that they were exported (and later imported) illegally and it seems Beale has more or less confessed to knowledge of this. So I don't think the facts in the affidavit about the Gaza dekadrachms are just there to cast aspersions, they're evidence for some of the alleged crimes.

[Barnaba6]

13 hours ago, DonnaML said:

@Harry G, I did not practice criminal law during my 37 years as a litigation attorney. But the principles are sufficiently similar to civil cases that I'm confident in saying that it's the prosecution's initial burden to show that the stated provenance was false. Apparently, this has already been admitted. It's then up to the defendant to assert and prove some sort of defense. 

Anyone who thinks that "innocent until proven guilty" is a reason not to discuss this case or offer opinions on the charges is under a misapprehension: that phrase is simply an evidentiary principle relating to burden of proof, and applies only in court. It has no bearing on the press or on public opinions outside court, and, while obviously we shouldn't assume guilt, we're all entitled to form opinions based on the evidence released to date, and express them publicly. Doing so doesn't prejudice the defendant in any way, and I doubt that this case will receive enough publicity that the jury pool is going to be tainted by public discussion, should the case go to trial.

So I think I can safely say, having read the documents -- and keeping in mind the previous success rate in such cases of the office prosecuting him -- that it looks absolutely terrible for Mr. Beale. (No wonder I didn't see him at Roma's table at NYINC!) I assume he's back in the UK, and not languishing in jail here in New York? I doubt he's considered a flight risk. The best outcome for him would probably be to try avoiding a prison term by pleading guilty to something, making restitution of his allegedly ill-gotten gains, and perhaps agreeing to sell Roma and not engage in the numismatics business for a stated period of time. The problem is, what or whom can he give up in exchange for leniency? 

I actually feel most sorry at the moment for our own @Barnaba6, who just made the decision to switch to Roma to auction some of his Probus and Aurelian collection on March 16; see his thread at https://www.numisforums.com/topic/3684-my-selected-probus-and-aurelian-coins-on-auction-by-roma-numismatics-on-the-16-march-2023/#comment-43726 .

I was planning to bid on some of the Probus coins in that auction. Does anyone think I should be concerned about any coins I should happen to win actually reaching me in the USA?

 

@DonnaML,

Thank you for your empathy. I appreciate it. This is indeed troubling news and obviously I can’t say that I feel comfortable. I had no idea about this matter until yesterday.  

The allegations against Mr. Beale are certainly serious and - if true – will likely lead to serious legal consequences for Mr. Beale.

However, let us not forget that the criminal case is not against the Roma Numismatics company but against Mr. Beale personally. As of now, there are no worrying signs pertaining to Roma Numismatics itself. In particular, there is no information suggesting that consignors are not receiving their due payments or that buyers are not receiving the coins purchased from Roma (including coins sold at Roma's recent e-sale no. 106). At least I am not aware of any such complaints and I am sure that people would publicly share their complaints on various forums if they had them. On the contrary, Roma’s auctions are continuing to run as usual.

I can confirm that I received a standard advance payment from Roma in January  (i.e. already after the arrest of Mr. Beale as it now turns out) for the coins which I consigned as per our consignment agreement. I am in regular contact with Roma’s staff, receive all the pre-sale reports and other information etc. Roma’s staff is very responsive. All seems normal.  

Not underestimating the accusations against Mr. Beale personally, in the lack of any specific evidence pertaining to Roma’s current operations, I think we should avoid questioning the safety of buying and selling through Roma Numismatics. Any potential panic – if sufficiently widespread – might kill even the strongest companies, regardless of whether such panic is justified. 

So I would nevertheless encourage you Donna to bid on the Probus coins which interest you. I can assure you that the provenance of the coins stated by Roma in this case is true: they all come from my personal collection and I am indeed a "Polish connoisseur of Probus coins". I acquired my coins from reputable European auction houses in the last 12 years and most coins have prior documented provenances (prior to entering my own collection).

Furthermore, unlike coins leading to the arrest of Mr. Beale, my Probus coins are not worth hundreds of thousand or millions of pounds a piece (alas!), so I don’t see why there should be any problems in exporting them safely to the US by Roma after the sale.  

Ultimately, it is always the bidder’s individual decision whether to bid or not on a particular lot at a particular auction.   

Edited March 7, 2023 by Barnaba6

[Harry G]

12 minutes ago, Barnaba6 said:

@DonnaML,

Thank you for your empathy. I appreciate it. This is indeed troubling news and obviously I can’t say that I feel comfortable. I had no idea about this matter until yesterday.  

The allegations against Mr. Beale are certainly serious and - if true – will likely lead to serious legal consequences for Mr. Beale.

However, let us not forget that the criminal case is not against the Roma Numismatics company but against Mr. Beale personally. As of now, there are no worrying signs pertaining to Roma Numismatics itself. In particular, there is no information suggesting that consignors are not receiving their due payments or that buyers are not receiving the coins purchased from Roma (including coins sold at Roma's recent e-sale no. 106). At least I am not aware of any such complaints and I am sure that people would publicly share their complaints on various forums if they had them. On the contrary, Roma’s auctions are continuing to run as usual.

I can confirm that I received a standard advance payment from Roma in January  (i.e. already after the arrest of Mr. Beale as it now turns out) for the coins which I consigned as per our consignment agreement. I am in regular contact with Roma’s staff, receive all the pre-sale reports and other information etc. Roma’s staff is very responsive. All seems normal.  

Not underestimating the accusations against Mr. Beale personally, in the lack of any specific evidence pertaining to Roma’s current operations, I think we should avoid questioning the safety of buying and selling through Roma Numismatics. Any potential panic – if sufficiently widespread – might kill even the strongest companies, regardless of whether such panic is justified. 

So I would nevertheless encourage you Donna to bid on the Probus coins which interest you. I can assure you that the provenance of the coins stated by Roma in this case is true: they all come from my personal collection and I am indeed a "Polish connoisseur of Probus coins". I acquired my coins from reputable European auction houses in the last 12 years and most coins have prior documented provenances (prior to entering my own collection).

Furthermore, unlike coins leading to the arrest of Mr. Beale, my Probus coins are not worth hundreds of thousand or millions of pounds a piece (alas!), so I don’t see why there should be any problems in exporting them safely to the US by Roma after the sale.  

Ultimately, it is always the bidder’s individual decision whether to bid or not on a particular lot at a particular auction.   

I'd also like to say that I've had no issues with Roma in the past when buying and selling.

E.g. I managed to buy some Byzantine coins from "The Vitangelo Collection", and all came with old collector's tickets by the same hand, and I have no reason to doubt the provenance.

[Hesiod]

4 minutes ago, Harry G said:

E.g. I managed to buy some Byzantine coins from "The Vitangelo Collection", and all came with old collector's tickets by the same hand, and I have no reason to doubt the provenance.

Vitangelo is a real collection, and some of the coins definitely have a nice provenance to go with it.

[filolif]

1 hour ago, Barnaba6 said:

However, let us not forget that the criminal case is not against the Roma Numismatics company but against Mr. Beale personally. As of now, there are no worrying signs pertaining to Roma Numismatics itself.

"Just because they are accused of one kind of crime doesn't mean they are guilty of another kind of crime."

Well, obviously. 

I understand the impulse to try to exonerate Roma as an auction house (especially in your position as a current consigner), but Roma and Mr. Beale are very intertwined in a way that makes them different from other businesses where wrongdoing is alleged. 

[Kaleun96]

1 hour ago, Barnaba6 said:

However, let us not forget that the criminal case is not against the Roma Numismatics company but against Mr. Beale personally. As of now, there are no worrying signs pertaining to Roma Numismatics itself.

[...]

Not underestimating the accusations against Mr. Beale personally, in the lack of any specific evidence pertaining to Roma’s current operations, I think we should avoid questioning the safety of buying and selling through Roma Numismatics.

I think the main concern is that while the alleged crimes are against an individual, they relate to coins sold by the business and which the business would be on the hook for refunding the buyer in the case where the coins are seized. So using the Eid Mar as an example, the buyer may have that coin seized and will receive zero compensation from the authorities. Their only avenue for recompense is presumably to ask Roma Numismatics for a refund, and failing that legal action.

Refunding $3.5M USD may or may not be an issue for a business like Roma but it's possible that Roma Numismatics as a company could wind up in financial difficulty, separate from Beale's own legal issues. I don't think anyone here can say with much certainty how things will play out so all one can do is exercise the caution they personally think is necessary based on the information at hand.

[Heliodromus]

The fake provenance of the eid mar aureus seems to have been suspected in the dealer community for quite a while. In Ancient Coin Podcast # 10 (over 9 months ago) Aaron Berk, talking about the holed NAC specimen, mentioned that the provenance of the Roma coin was suspect.

 

 

[Restitutor]

I do find this paragraph about the EID MAR listing quite ironic now considering what appears has occurred (emphasis mine):

”It had once been in the collection of 18th-century Baron Dominique de Chambrier of Switzerland and was so coveted that England’s King George III was duped into purchasing a fake, the forgery now on display at the British Museum”

Perhaps knowing this coin was part of a dupe of King George III will make American jurors more sympathetic? 🤪

[Brennos]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

Refunding $3.5M USD may or may not be an issue for a business like Roma but it's possible that Roma Numismatics as a company could wind up in financial difficulty,

I may be wrong but i understood that it was Richard Beale who bought the coin few years before offering it for auction...