Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[robinjojo]

Coin collectors do get busted, rarely, but it takes a pretty high profile case for this to happen.  I don't think this would happen to a collector with his or her album of late Roman bronzes.  Clearly magnitude plays an important role.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1757439/anglo-saxon-coins-king-alfred-king-ceolwulf-sting-court-trial

Edited August 22, 2023 by robinjojo

[Limes]

Late to the party, apparently. I'll blame that central European time 😁

12 hours ago, KenDorney said:

I still like Roma.

This! I mean, I feel guilty (the feeling, to the criminal law variant) when looking at the Roma auctions, and liking the offerings, and deciding to place a bid or not. Knowing of the fraudulent behaviour. To some degree, I comfort myself thinking I'm in for the lower end coins, and not the higher end coins with potential faked provenances. Then again, like you said too, the dealer is caught, but the buyers support the behaviour... 

7 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

While I agree with you, I think the law is more interested in the monetary value because it's fraud, and the higher the value, the worse the fraud. The element of stealing artefacts is a different matter and should be proportionate to the cultural value rather than monetary value, but quite often the monetary value is proportionate to the cultural value.

I think what's playing here as well, is that the ancient coin in question is something very special in terms of value, history, and so on. It's perfect for a prosecutioner to get exposure in media, and make a point. Sometimes sending out a message is at least as, or maybe even more, valuable then a specific person doing jail time. 

12 hours ago, KenDorney said:

Now, there are other auction houses who are 1,000 times worse and a million times more criminal, but they are uber popular seemingly above reproach

Maybe not for a public board, but this does interest me.....

[John Conduitt]

50 minutes ago, Limes said:

This! I mean, I feel guilty (the feeling, to the criminal law variant) when looking at the Roma auctions, and liking the offerings, and deciding to place a bid or not. Knowing of the fraudulent behaviour. To some degree, I comfort myself thinking I'm in for the lower end coins, and not the higher end coins with potential faked provenances. Then again, like you said too, the dealer is caught, but the buyers support the behaviour... 

I think what's playing here as well, is that the ancient coin in question is something very special in terms of value, history, and so on. It's perfect for a prosecutioner to get exposure in media, and make a point. Sometimes sending out a message is at least as, or maybe even more, valuable then a specific person doing jail time. 

I don't trust Roma. There aren't many auction houses or dealers I do trust enough to believe the descriptions unquestioningly, but anyone who commits fraud and says 'it's the only one I've ever done' is unlikely to be trustworthy for anything else. Still, if there's other evidence (other online photos, old labels etc), it doesn't matter if I trust them, I can buy the coins.

[KenDorney]

16 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

You do realize there is the party committing the fraud and the party being defrauded?

The home broken into is as guilty as the the thief? The murdered is as guilty as the murderer? 

Pretty sure you know what I mean (at least I hope you do).

 

16 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

What does race have to do this? We are discussing financial fraud and the scale/impact of those crimes  🙈

Nothing.  It's just to hopefully illustrate the concept of degrees of guilt.  

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

22 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Pretty sure you know what I mean (at least I hope you do).

 

Nothing.  It's just to hopefully illustrate the concept of degrees of guilt.  

We can agree to disagree. 🙂At the end of the day we all like coins and can enjoy collecting 

[Deinomenid]

Their Wise account seems suspended. Possibly  unrelated.

[Harry G]

10 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Their Wise account seems suspended. Possibly  unrelated.

I just paid for my invoice with no issues (yet). I didn't use Wise though 

[Deinomenid]

Just got :

IMPORTANT

Dear x

Due to unforeseen circumstances, you will not be able to wire funds to our Wise account as shown on the face of your invoice.

[El Cazador]

40 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Just got :

IMPORTANT

Dear x

Due to unforeseen circumstances, you will not be able to wire funds to our Wise account as shown on the face of your invoice.

And? What does it mean? If you can pay with CC or PayPal for invoices - who cares what Wise situation is - Roma still in business 

[John Conduitt]

Of course, it could be for many reasons. At its most gossipworthy, it could be because Roma went against Wise's acceptable use policy (and now that Beale has admitted it there is no doubt):

1.2 Unsupported businesses and transactions
We do not support businesses or transactions which are involved in any of the following categories, such businesses or transactions may be declined. While this list is representative, it is not exhaustive, and we reserve our right to deny our services to any customers who exceed our risk tolerance.

1.2.1 Regulated or illegal products and services
2.           Sale of illegally imported or exported goods.

Edited August 25, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Kaleun96]

11 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

And? What does it mean? If you can pay with CC or PayPal for invoices - who cares what Wise situation is - Roma still in business 

Well for starters you can only use CC or PayPal for invoices less than £2,500. But the more important aspect is that Roma has twice in the past month sent out emails declaring their bank account details have changed following an auction. Which is a little concerning in normal circumstances, more so when the director has pled guilty to 10 felonies including fraud.

I know you're determined to be their protector on this forum for whatever reason but I think you know as well as the rest of us that it is somewhat odd that Roma is changing their banking details out of the blue at the last minute so often. At the very least it is relevant information to us as buyers - if I win a lot in their next auction I will hold off payment for a few days to see if this happens again.

[John Conduitt]

What could happen if a business finds trouble being accepted for banking facilities but is otherwise profitable is that they declare bankruptcy and an almost identical company is set up with a new director (perhaps the old director's spouse). This might not be a problem for customers, but there are always creditors stuck in the middle.

[red_spork]

1 hour ago, El Cazador said:

And? What does it mean? If you can pay with CC or PayPal for invoices - who cares what Wise situation is - Roma still in business 

For one, Credit Card or Paypal costs noticeably more. It varies depending on the exact amount and currency and whatnot but Wise often works out to 1% versus 3% or even more sometimes for other payment methods not to mention most auction houses tack on additional fees for paypal or CC too and it all adds up. I'd be pissed and especially if I bought a coin at the higher end of the price I'd be willing to pay for it and then had unexpected fees tacked on I might not pay the invoice, personally.

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

Well for starters you can only use CC or PayPal for invoices less than £2,500. But the more important aspect is that Roma has twice in the past month sent out emails declaring their bank account details have changed following an auction. Which is a little concerning in normal circumstances, more so when the director has pled guilty to 10 felonies including fraud.

I know you're determined to be their protector on this forum for whatever reason but I think you know as well as the rest of us that it is somewhat odd that Roma is changing their banking details out of the blue at the last minute so often. At the very least it is relevant information to us as buyers - if I win a lot in their next auction I will hold off payment for a few days to see if this happens again.

I think all fair points, and for the record- i am not a protector here, but what’s bizzare is that certain members here bash the auction house and then bid in their auctions - total hypocrisy

Edited August 25, 2023 by El Cazador

[kirispupis]

51 minutes ago, red_spork said:

For one, Credit Card or Paypal costs noticeably more. It varies depending on the exact amount and currency and whatnot but Wise often works out to 1% versus 3% or even more sometimes for other payment methods not to mention most auction houses tack on additional fees for paypal or CC too and it all adds up. I'd be pissed and especially if I bought a coin at the higher end of the price I'd be willing to pay for it and then had unexpected fees tacked on I might not pay the invoice, personally.

Per their email, Roma provided a new account for transfers. Therefore the issue isn't that transfers aren't accepted, but that any previous transfers failed. In their defense, Roma made clear they would reimburse any penalties received.

I do believe there's something to these account closures. When my son had his sports card trading business, his accounts kept getting shut down due to the nature of the business because a) "breaks" are considered gambling in some spheres and b) the amount of fraud from buyers is high.

My suspicion is Roma is running into the same issues but on a bigger scale. It's a legal fact that the head of Roma is facing severe legal issues. Just considering that, it doesn't surprise me that some financial institutions may wish to cease doing business with them.

FWIW, I continue to do business with Roma, but on a smaller scale. I won two low-price coins at their last auction and paid by CC. In terms of my dealing with them, they've been nothing but courteous - and I've dealt directly with Richard Beale in the past.

The main reason I've scaled back my purchases is they've become very expensive. There appear to be several well-heeled buyers in my area and for some reason I come into conflict with them far more at Roma than elsewhere. Therefore, I only bid on coins that I feel I'm unlikely to find at other auction houses, along with the snack or two when I'm lucky.

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, red_spork said:

For one, Credit Card or Paypal costs noticeably more. It varies depending on the exact amount and currency and whatnot but Wise often works out to 1% versus 3% or even more sometimes for other payment methods not to mention most auction houses tack on additional fees for paypal or CC too and it all adds up. I'd be pissed and especially if I bought a coin at the higher end of the price I'd be willing to pay for it and then had unexpected fees tacked on I might not pay the invoice, personally.

True, I personally rare use Wise as it funnels funds our of your checking account and there is no recourse against the seller in case something goes wrong. The only way I would use it is to pay invoices for established US auction houses - you all know the names

Edited August 25, 2023 by El Cazador

[John Conduitt]

14 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

I think all fair points, and for the record- i am not a protector here, but what’s bizzare is that certain members here bash the auction house and then bid in their auctions - total hypocrisy

It's impossible to go about day-to-day life without some hypocrisy. Unless we all want to live like Greta Thunberg.

[El Cazador]

3 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

It's impossible to go about day-to-day life without some hypocrisy. Unless we all want to live like Greta Thunberg.

We should look up to Greta

[Limes]

9 hours ago, kirispupis said:

My suspicion is Roma is running into the same issues but on a bigger scale. It's a legal fact that the head of Roma is facing severe legal issues. Just considering that, it doesn't surprise me that some financial institutions may wish to cease doing business with them.

Yes, actually, financial institutions will be obliged to reevaluate their business in case like these; its AML regulation which I think is following international recommendations, or even international law (at least here, in the Netherlands, that's the way its applied). So maybe Roma had to insert certain changes which also affected their old accounts, and new accounts had to be engaged, perhaps to separate the enitity from the person/owner. 

[Tetradogma]

This just published, relating to the Gaza Hoard coins and Beale's admission of knowingly selling them:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66594076?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA&fbclid=IwAR1snkpCIkHR0uXwDqkSoxbTakxdjk9S44fdxToojh7ROmkqGqPbReX4OcU

Edited August 27, 2023 by Tetradogma

[DonnaML]

14 hours ago, Tetradogma said:

This just published, relating to the Gaza Hoard coins and Beale's admission of knowingly selling them:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66594076?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA&fbclid=IwAR1snkpCIkHR0uXwDqkSoxbTakxdjk9S44fdxToojh7ROmkqGqPbReX4OcU

Interesting account of the hearing, the facts to which Beale admitted, and the judge's comments. It's difficult for me to believe the speculation I've seen that he's going to get away with only a fine, without any prison time.

[robinjojo]

Thanks, Donna, for the link to the BBC article. 

It seems that the penalty will be reduced because of the plea deal; to what degree remains to be seen.  We should have a clearer picture following the next hearing in March 2024.

Edited August 27, 2023 by robinjojo

[Rand]

It is hard to predict how this case unfolds and what could have been part of the deal. The outpours of Athenian Owls, Tigranes's Tetradrachmes, etc., have also showered the American soil. The authorities might be tempted to use the deal for insights.

[DonnaML]

5 minutes ago, Rand said:

It is hard to predict how this case unfolds and what could have been part of the deal. The outpours of Athenian Owls, Tigranes's Tetradrachmes, etc., have also showered the American soil. The authorities might be tempted to use the deal for insights.

Whatever the deal is, I am sure that cooperating in the case against Italo Vecchi (assuming that he isn't negotiating his own plea bargain), and providing information for possible future prosecutions of others in the ancient coin business, are part of it.

[GinoLR]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:49 AM, Tetradogma said:

This just published, relating to the Gaza Hoard coins and Beale's admission of knowingly selling them:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66594076?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA&fbclid=IwAR1snkpCIkHR0uXwDqkSoxbTakxdjk9S44fdxToojh7ROmkqGqPbReX4OcU

Excellent. He finally confessed what was obvious for most: the Alexander decadrachms (plus a number of tetradrachms he auctioned too in the same time) originated from the underwater Alexanders Gaza hoard. This means that these coins are officially the property of the Palestinian Authority. I wonder if the Palestinians will or will not demand repatriation.

These coins are not all. In July 2017 4 other decadrachms were seized by the Israeli police at the Erez crossing from a person attempting to smuggle them from Gaza to Israel. They have been handled to the IAA, who AFAIK currently keeps them in some drawer. Will the Israelis repatriate them to Gaza, too? 😉