Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[zadie]

32 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Richard Beale appears to have pled guilty to 10 counts. I imagine he struck a plea deal with the DA. Next scheduled appearance is March 2024.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcrim_attorney/Detail?which=charge&docketNumber=m52H5JZ5W7KM2NEWgvSc5jT9i2eREBcJf_PLUS_ZwWAFKwfI=&countyId=K4i18rFVPQh5HTQ/kUoO3Q==&docketId=3gbtRNdkovun89tcAxf0dg==&docketDseq=T/O1YN_PLUS_BG65HkOeqEnpAkw==&defendantName=Beale,+Richard&court=New+York+Supreme+Criminal+Court&courtType=U&recordType=U&recordNum=

Let's hear all about how he's being framed or that the government is overreaching in their case against Beale.

[Deinomenid]

Grand larceny 1st degree is no joke even in NY with a plea deal. Believe it's always the slammer.

 

[Limes]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

Richard Beale appears to have pled guilty to 10 counts. I imagine he struck a plea deal with the DA. Next scheduled appearance is March 2024.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcrim_attorney/Detail?which=charge&docketNumber=m52H5JZ5W7KM2NEWgvSc5jT9i2eREBcJf_PLUS_ZwWAFKwfI=&countyId=K4i18rFVPQh5HTQ/kUoO3Q==&docketId=3gbtRNdkovun89tcAxf0dg==&docketDseq=T/O1YN_PLUS_BG65HkOeqEnpAkw==&defendantName=Beale,+Richard&court=New+York+Supreme+Criminal+Court&courtType=U&recordType=U&recordNum=

Seeing the severity of the charges, and the plea and deal, Im wondering if there will be any jail time. What do you think, or is it too difficult to predict?

[sand]

I don't like the idea, of having to "plea" anything. I wonder, why we have laws, that allow an accused person, to plea guilty, or plea not guilty. I'm pretty sure, that some innocent people plea guilty, because they are afraid of getting a worse sentence, than if they plea not guilty. It seems contrary to the 5th Amendment against self incrimination or being coerced to "confess". It seems like, the whole "plea" business, is to save time and money. I also don't like the idea, of an accused person, cutting a deal with the prosecution, to be a witness against another accused person, in exchange for a lesser sentence. That seems like bribery, to me. Bribing a witness. It seems like, it would be an incentive, for the witness to lie and say that he/she saw the other accused person commit the crime, even if the other accused person didn't commit the crime.

I'm not saying that Mr. Beale is innocent. I just don't like the idea of "plea guilty" or "plea not guilty" or "plea bargaining".

Edited August 21, 2023 by sand

[Heliodromus]

I'd be very surprised if there's jail time ... I'd also assume a plea deal, maybe similar to that for Peter Weiss. Community service, fine, etc.

 

[KenDorney]

7 minutes ago, Limes said:

Seeing the severity of the charges, and the plea and deal, Im wondering if there will be any jail time. What do you think, or is it too difficult to predict?

We can all be wrong in our opinions or predictions, but I bet there will be no jail time.  In most places around the world financial crimes have little to no punishment.  Make what you will of that opinion.  In the end we still really dont know much.  Maybe when Rich is old and graying he might let us know the details!  I still like Roma.

Now, there are other auction houses who are 1,000 times worse and a million times more criminal, but they are uber popular seemingly above reproach, but as they are the 'popular kids in school' they are held in high regard.  Its just the nature of the business, I suppose.  For some anyway.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

56 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Now, there are other auction houses who are 1,000 times worse and a million times more criminal, but they are uber popular seemingly above reproach, but as they are the 'popular kids in school' they are held in high regard.  Its just the nature of the business, I suppose.  For some anyway.

Well that doesn’t matter here. 10 felony convictions is not above reproach 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

1 hour ago, sand said:

It seems like, the whole "plea" business, is to save time and money.

For the defendant, usually 

[robinjojo]

1 hour ago, Heliodromus said:

I'd be very surprised if there's jail time ... I'd also assume a plea deal, maybe similar to that for Peter Weiss. Community service, fine, etc.

 

Another part of the plea deal with the DA is to cooperate with his office in the efforts to identify other individuals involved in potentially illegal importation activities and other potentially criminal activates.  That's the usual arrangement in this circumstance.

[DonnaML]

3 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

Richard Beale appears to have pled guilty to 10 counts. I imagine he struck a plea deal with the DA. Next scheduled appearance is March 2024.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcrim_attorney/Detail?which=charge&docketNumber=m52H5JZ5W7KM2NEWgvSc5jT9i2eREBcJf_PLUS_ZwWAFKwfI=&countyId=K4i18rFVPQh5HTQ/kUoO3Q==&docketId=3gbtRNdkovun89tcAxf0dg==&docketDseq=T/O1YN_PLUS_BG65HkOeqEnpAkw==&defendantName=Beale,+Richard&court=New+York+Supreme+Criminal+Court&courtType=U&recordType=U&recordNum=

This happened last week, by the way:

Has there been any coverage yet in the numismatic press, or the press in general? If not, I'm surprised. 

[Kaleun96]

8 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

This happened last week, by the way:

Has there been any coverage yet in the numismatic press, or the press in general? If not, I'm surprised. 

Not that I've noticed at least. It's easy to miss because they've recorded this under a new case number so it has a new entry in the IAPPS system. Technically it's the third entry, the original can be found here and is now mostly empty, the second can be found here and has similar details to the third but different appearance dates etc, and the third is the one I linked above.

So if a journalist "subscribed" to the original case, they wouldn't have gotten notifications when the second entry appeared. Another collector alerted me to the second one a few months ago, and then again to the third one today with the guilty plea. Unless the journalists checked occasionally, I don't think they'd have any idea that the case had been updated and they could have easily just checked the first or second entries without finding the third.

I note the third case number has an SCI prefix, which from some brief googling may refer to a "superior court information". This link seems to suggest it's an alternative to a grand jury indictment and filed with the cooperation of the defendant. Does that mean Beale was never indicted by a grand jury, or just that this new "indictment" supersedes the original? It sounds like the former. Given Beale has plead guilty to all the original charges, I can only imagine he got some promises from the prosecutors to ask for a reduced sentence.

[Deinomenid]

Yep, nothing  in the UK, though even if they hadn't switched case numbers it's not a shock as it took them a few weeks last time . The press (t)here is  pretty obsessively following an awful murder case at the moment so this is very tertiary.

In my extensive legal experience (zero aside from typing  it into Google) I thought that class of grand larceny was always  jail. I'm with @sand at the (to me)  intimidatingly awful  plea system.

 

 

[KenDorney]

3 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

Well that doesn’t matter here. 10 felony convictions is not above reproach 

I completely disagree.  The average collector is likely 'guilty' (under certain guidelines) of plenty or even more than Beale.  The only thing we are talking about here is a couple coins, and if they were common and relatively 'valueless' coins nobody would give a crud and we would not be having this discussion.  The only reason we are talking about this is because these have monetary value more than the 'average' coin.  Governments dont care about a coin worth a couple dollars but do when the value is say a million or so. Such hypocrisy, and these are the same governments who cannot preserve what they currently have.

I've been in this business for about 35 years.  Ive seen it all and have some tales to tell.  Honestly even when wrong governments will double and triple down (not saying this is the case here).  I had to laugh my ass off when National Geographic had an issue about 'repatriating' a sarcophagus to Egypt, big ceremony, everyone patting themselves on the back, the damned thing was fake, everyone knew it. The governments, those involved (yea, they were duped and thought it was real and were completely guilty of trying to smuggle, but it was fake).  Its just a stupid situation.  

Anyway, just my opinion (though sometimes vastly informed and sometimes ignorant of specific situations).

[John Conduitt]

14 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

I completely disagree.  The average collector is likely 'guilty' (under certain guidelines) of plenty or even more than Beale.  The only thing we are talking about here is a couple coins, and if they were common and relatively 'valueless' coins nobody would give a crud and we would not be having this discussion.  The only reason we are talking about this is because these have monetary value more than the 'average' coin.  Governments dont care about a coin worth a couple dollars but do when the value is say a million or so. Such hypocrisy, and these are the same governments who cannot preserve what they currently have.

I've been in this business for about 35 years.  Ive seen it all and have some tales to tell.  Honestly even when wrong governments will double and triple down (not saying this is the case here).  I had to laugh my ass off when National Geographic had an issue about 'repatriating' a sarcophagus to Egypt, big ceremony, everyone patting themselves on the back, the damned thing was fake, everyone knew it. The governments, those involved (yea, they were duped and thought it was real and were completely guilty of trying to smuggle, but it was fake).  Its just a stupid situation.  

Anyway, just my opinion (though sometimes vastly informed and sometimes ignorant of specific situations).

While I agree with you, I think the law is more interested in the monetary value because it's fraud, and the higher the value, the worse the fraud. The element of stealing artefacts is a different matter and should be proportionate to the cultural value rather than monetary value, but quite often the monetary value is proportionate to the cultural value.

[KenDorney]

13 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

While I agree with you, I think the law is more interested in the monetary value because it's fraud, and the higher the value, the worse the fraud. The element of stealing artefacts is a different matter and should be proportionate to the cultural value rather than monetary value, but quite often the monetary value is proportionate to the cultural value.

There shouldn’t be any ‘degree’ of guilt. Either they should criminalize all coin collecting or not at all. The monetary value should not come into play, but that is the hipocrisy. But it’s kind of crazy. What you say about ‘stealing’. In 99% of the time they could care less, unless it has high monetary or TV value. 

[filolif]

4 hours ago, sand said:

I'm not saying that Mr. Beale is innocent. I just don't like the idea of "plea guilty" or "plea not guilty" or "plea bargaining".

If every case went to a jury trial, the system would slow to a halt and everyone would have to spend months as jury members every year. Hence why plea bargaining is necessary.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

5 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

There shouldn’t be any ‘degree’ of guilt

What?

 

5 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Either they should criminalize all coin collecting or not at all.

Either they should criminalize all killing or none at all. Murder versus manslaughter, whats the big difference? Premeditated versus spontaneous, whats the big difference?

 

6 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

The monetary value should not come into play, but that is the hipocrisy

??? That is EXACTLY why it does matter. Someone who stole a $1 pack of gum is not equivalent to a bank robber who steals millions

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

46 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

The average collector is likely 'guilty' (under certain guidelines) of plenty or even more than Beale

The difference is the scale and the degree which Beale criminally defrauded people. What collectors do you know who have pled guilty to ten plus felonies? 😯🙈

[KenDorney]

36 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

What?

 

Either they should criminalize all killing or none at all. Murder versus manslaughter, whats the big difference? Premeditated versus spontaneous, whats the big difference?

 

??? That is EXACTLY why it does matter. Someone who stole a $1 pack of gum is not equivalent to a bank robber who steals millions

Ah. Then, I certainly need to rob my local bank of millions. After all, it’s not trillions, right?  Maybe I can murder an Asian, because he’s not as ‘valuable’ as a ‘black’?  

[KenDorney]

38 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

The difference is the scale and the degree which Beale criminally defrauded people. What collectors do you know who have pled guilty to ten plus felonies? 😯🙈

Buyers are never criminalized. Only sellers. This is why you and every buyer ever is also a criminal under this concept. Welcome to the club!  

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

13 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Buyers are never criminalized. Only sellers. This is why you and every buyer ever is also a criminal under this concept. Welcome to the club!  

You do realize there is the party committing the fraud and the party being defrauded?

The home broken into is as guilty as the the thief? The murdered is as guilty as the murderer? 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

18 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Ah. Then, I certainly need to rob my local bank of millions. After all, it’s not trillions, right?  Maybe I can murder an Asian, because he’s not as ‘valuable’ as a ‘black’?  

What does race have to do this? We are discussing financial fraud and the scale/impact of those crimes  🙈

[robinjojo]

Coin collectors do get busted, rarely, but it takes a pretty high profile case for this to happen.  I don't think this would happen to a collector with his or her album of late Roman bronzes.  Clearly magnitude plays an important role.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1757439/anglo-saxon-coins-king-alfred-king-ceolwulf-sting-court-trial

Edited August 22, 2023 by robinjojo

[Limes]

Late to the party, apparently. I'll blame that central European time 😁

12 hours ago, KenDorney said:

I still like Roma.

This! I mean, I feel guilty (the feeling, to the criminal law variant) when looking at the Roma auctions, and liking the offerings, and deciding to place a bid or not. Knowing of the fraudulent behaviour. To some degree, I comfort myself thinking I'm in for the lower end coins, and not the higher end coins with potential faked provenances. Then again, like you said too, the dealer is caught, but the buyers support the behaviour... 

7 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

While I agree with you, I think the law is more interested in the monetary value because it's fraud, and the higher the value, the worse the fraud. The element of stealing artefacts is a different matter and should be proportionate to the cultural value rather than monetary value, but quite often the monetary value is proportionate to the cultural value.

I think what's playing here as well, is that the ancient coin in question is something very special in terms of value, history, and so on. It's perfect for a prosecutioner to get exposure in media, and make a point. Sometimes sending out a message is at least as, or maybe even more, valuable then a specific person doing jail time. 

12 hours ago, KenDorney said:

Now, there are other auction houses who are 1,000 times worse and a million times more criminal, but they are uber popular seemingly above reproach

Maybe not for a public board, but this does interest me.....

[John Conduitt]

50 minutes ago, Limes said:

This! I mean, I feel guilty (the feeling, to the criminal law variant) when looking at the Roma auctions, and liking the offerings, and deciding to place a bid or not. Knowing of the fraudulent behaviour. To some degree, I comfort myself thinking I'm in for the lower end coins, and not the higher end coins with potential faked provenances. Then again, like you said too, the dealer is caught, but the buyers support the behaviour... 

I think what's playing here as well, is that the ancient coin in question is something very special in terms of value, history, and so on. It's perfect for a prosecutioner to get exposure in media, and make a point. Sometimes sending out a message is at least as, or maybe even more, valuable then a specific person doing jail time. 

I don't trust Roma. There aren't many auction houses or dealers I do trust enough to believe the descriptions unquestioningly, but anyone who commits fraud and says 'it's the only one I've ever done' is unlikely to be trustworthy for anything else. Still, if there's other evidence (other online photos, old labels etc), it doesn't matter if I trust them, I can buy the coins.