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robinjojo

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Everything posted by robinjojo

  1. Though probably not. Ferdinand VII was a Bourbon, descended from Philip V, nephew of Louis XIV of France. I had to rummage through the boxes, but was able to locate the imaginary bust 8 escudos Ferdinand Vii, Santiago. This coin is in an old ANACS slab from the early 1990s (came that way). Chile, Ferdinand VII, 8 escudos, Santiago, 1811 FJ. Imaginary bust. KM 72
  2. I haven't rolled out this coin for a while: Spain, Segovia, Philip IV, 50 reales, 1635 R.
  3. I've seen owls from the Middle East with green deposits. I'm sure this occurs elsewhere as well. The deposits reflect the environment in which the coins have been stored for centuries, even thousands of years. The green encrustations on silver coins must be the result of other neighboring minerals or objects oxidizing, creating over a long period the buildup of deposits on the coin, with the help of moisture. I've actually seen a few instances where this has led to a seller describing a silver coin as a fourrée, even though the coin is actually silver with green (copper) oxide deposits on parts or all of the coin. Removal of the green deposits and analysis of the coin (surface condition, any signs of plating breaks, weight, etc) usually resolves the question for or against the fourrée attribution. Here are three Sassanian drachms and a follis of Maurice Tiberius (separate purchase) that I picked up out of group at the February show in San Jose. The two drachms to the left had some black deposits, probably horn silver that were relatively easy to remove. The follis, very nice as-is, is part of the group photo and was not cleaned.
  4. Nice coin! My experience with these large, impressive coins is that price is determined on rarity, condition, strike and size. Collectors pay a premium, it seems, for the truly massive bronze coins of Ptolemy IV, some measuring 46mm and weighing up to 90 grams or more. Those examples are much scarcer based on my experience. Here's one of my so-so examples. It displays very much the same surfaces as the OP coin: a little porous and with a somewhat uneven strike. Egypt, Ptolemy IV Philopator, AE Drachm, Alexandria mint. 222-205 BC. 66.15 grams
  5. I agree. The problem with these coins is that they tend to come from conflict zones, so any possible chance of location, hoard size, composition, etc. is virtually impossible. This was very problematic even in the best of times in the Middle East. There is evidence from studied hoards, such as the Syria hoard o f1989 and the Iraq hoard of 1973 that points to multiple sources for these imitations, including official, such as the pharaonic owls issued by an apparently unnamed pharaoh to pay Greek mercenaries fighting the Persians. There are others, more localized and probably a mix of official and private origins. The weights of the imitation owls span a wide range, but I think in a region where coins of Attic, Phoenician and shekel weight circulated in a great mix, this would be a logical outcome. I imagine that there would be a great incentive for a local authority to require the turning in of Attic weight owls, melt them and issue imitations at the shekel weight and pocket the profits. This actually happened almost 1,900 years later in Potosi, Bolivia under Philip IV of Spain, but in that case the method of fraud by the assayers and mint officials was debasement.
  6. In my disorganized quest to acquire anything round or roundish, made of some sort of metal and appears older than I am, here's a new style Athenian tetradrachm from the time of Sulla (86-84 AD). Just an overview of Margaret Thompson's plates indicates that lots of these owls appear to have been produced under Sulla, driven it appears by our old friend economic necessity. He needed all the money that he could lay his hands during the war with Mithridates and his allies which included Athens. Having starved Athens into capitulation following a brutal siege in 87 AD, he spared the city from total destruction, merely sacking it, a time-honored practice. These owls were issued in the ensuing few years following the fall of Athens. The owls produced during his occupation are quite distinctive both in their obverse treatment of Athena and the owl on the reverse. The engraving styles can range from good to crude attempts, compared to prior new style owls, indicating that die engravers of varying artistic abilities were employed by the mint. Coins had to be produced quickly, to meet Sulla's demands, a very familiar situation. I've been looking some time for a decent type owl from this turbulent period in the histories of Rome and Greece. What I ended up with is a midrange coin grade-wise. The French firm graded it as an EF. There is no way that this coin is anywhere close. I don't know why they do this, but if you get beyond that issue and just judge the coin on its own merits and faults, good purchases from them are still possible. To me this coin grades Fine, maybe a good Fine for wear with good centering, given the narrower flan. There might also be a case of worn dies, especially on the obverse. A beauty it is not, but it is quite a historical coin. This coin is one of the cruder examples, struck on a typically narrower flan, resulting is some detail off the flan, but the centering is decent. The weight is within the range of other examples listed in the Thompson catalog. The closest match with the Sulla new style owls in the Thompson plates is 1303a. Athens under Roman rule, new style owl, 86-84 AD. ΛAYPIA M[E]TAΛΛA monograms on reverse. Month "A" on the amphora (quite weak). Sulla, Group I, Thompson 1303a. 24mm; 16.43 grams Perhaps this coin is a die match, at least of the obverse, for 1303a? Here's the Thompson catalog photo:
  7. I have found it increasingly difficult to find "buys" through auctions. It's a combination of fees (increasing) and increasing cash flowing into these venues that takes the fun out of them. It seems nowadays that the bidder with the biggest shovel and largest pile of money will prevail - time to return to bottom feeding, such as it is. Sometimes something interesting shows up on eBay, but that is "caveat emptor" land. Sometimes after sale or remainder lots offer some opportunity, depending on one's area(s) of interest. Have you seen the latest Aaron Berk podcast? That's number 42. He discusses the coinage of Lycia and mentions that this is an area that offers an opportunity to collect at an "affordable" level, but I must say the prices realized (what I could see) generally seem high. The coinage is quite interesting, though.
  8. Yup, definitely a blowout! My bid of $190 was clearly an act of futility in retrospect.
  9. This could be a situation where at least two highly specialized collectors of these coins got into a bidding war. I've been collecting imitation owls for the past several years, but I just don't have the means, or desire, to engage is such activity. Generally speaking almost all of my imitative owls are from the retail market, not auctions.
  10. This coin hammered at $1,600, plus a 20% buyer's fee, for a total of $1,920. The estimate for the lot, typically "low ball" was $250. It is described as unlisted, which is very likely true, but I have seen many other imitative coins that don't easily fit into cataloged types. https://auctions.cngcoins.com/lots/view/4-D0YHSQ/uncertain-east-mid-late-4th-century-bc-ar-tetradrachm-20mm-1308-g-10h-imitating-athens-near-vf The fabric of the coin looks like one of those owls attributed to Mesopotamia that have recently appeared on the market, with a low weight of 13.08 grams (shekel weight). However, it could have originated elsewhere in that eastern region. Here's one of the owls currently on the market attributed to Mesopotamia (Mazakes). Note that his name, in Aramaic, is not present; instead there is the normal AΘE to the right. https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ancient_artifacts__treasures/4/product/mazakes_satrap_of_mesopotamia__ar_tetradrachm_imitating_athens__athena__owl/2029855/Default.aspx Here's an eastern owl, with "find" patina, that I acquired in 2016 that has a weight 13.8 grams, not as light as the CNG coin, but definitely in the shekel weight range, quite a wide one depending on local standards and period. Possibly Philistia or Phoenicia, imitating Athens, tetradrachm, late 5th to mid 4th century. 13.8 grams
  11. Lovely examples! The bronze coins of Athens are very interesting and, I think, generally not appreciated as much as their more glamorous silver cousins. Those three examples are great coins. This is my only Athenian bronze coin, minted later in the second to early first century BC. Attica, Athens, AE 14, 130-90 BC. HGC 4, 1734; Kroll 1993, no. 100. cicada-owl on thunderbolt 4.19 grams Obverse: Cicada, viewed from top. Reverse: Owl standing on thunderbolt, AΘE to left.
  12. I think the drawing of collectors and others to the classical owls is their availability and historical significance, but also the design which reflects the archaic roots of these coins, however well or poorly executed. Yes, the eye is not natural. That came later with the intermediate pi-style owls, which unfortunately have not garnered the attention given to the classical owls. I say unfortunately because these coins, crude and "dumpy" as they are warrant more attention by collectors. But, they do post date Athens' "Golden Age" and as such do not have the cachet of the classical owls. I love them, though, as well as the New Styles. After all, they are of the same lineage, going back to the earliest Athenian archaic owls of the late 6th century BC.. I agree with NewStyleKing that the owls immediately proceeding the New Style owls are very rare, and that there a general lack of information about these elusive coins. I would love to acquire a post Quadridigité style owl (circa 286 - 262 BC), but I have yet to see offered. Of course my search is quite narrow, limited to a handful of auction houses, VCoins, MA Shops and eBay.
  13. I agree. The classical owls seem to have a "floor" price. Decent examples do seem to hover around the £400 to £550 hammer price range, while higher grade or coins with full or nearly full crest detail can go as high as £850 or so, plus the juice charged by the auction house. Slabbed owls, as always, command more and their price ranges can be all over the map. As has been commented many times in the forum auctions have become just too expensive for many collectors. The retail market is often the much better way to go when it comes to affordability.
  14. That's the most I've seen offered in a single auction by Roma, probably most if not all from the gargantuan hoard that surface in Turkey several years ago. They will generally sell in the £400 to £550 range, I think, but there is the 22.5% buyer's fee, plus foreign exchange rates (the US dollar has dropped somewhat), and shipping which isn't exactly getting any cheaper. There are a couple of New Style owls as well.
  15. Nice coins! Here's my only Frances II thaler, purchased from Hal Blackburn around 1981. Germany, Free City of Regensburg, Francis II, thaler, 1793. KM 469 28.03 grams
  16. Here are a couple more imaginary bust coins from the period. Both are from 1809 and have the armored imaginary bust that was issued until 1811, when the proper bust was introduced later that year. Ferdinand VII, 8 escudos, Mexico, 1809HJ. KM 160 27 grams Ferdinand VII, 8 reales, Mexico, 1809TH. KM 110 26.88 grams
  17. As I go through the boxes that comprise the collection, really journey through time, I photographed a coin from my Spanish colonial coinage phase, covering around two decades. This is an imaginary bust 8 reales from Lima, dated 1808. In the past this style was referred to as the Indian bust, though I think such a designation these days may not be appropriate, so let's call it the Lima style imaginary bust. Lima also minted for most of 1808 8 reales with the legend and portrait of Charles IV. Prior to the arrival of dies from Spain with an accurate portrait, die engravers in Mexico, Santiago and Lima were left to their own devices when news of Ferdinand's success arrived in Spain's colonial possessions. Perhaps these renderings were based on paintings of Ferdinand VII, but perhaps another source was used. It's also important to remember that this transition from Charles IV to Ferdinand VII occurred during the wars of independence throughout Latin America and the Napoleonic War, and the associated interruptions in communications with Spain Other mints, notably Bogota and Guatemala, resolved the problem by simply continuing to use the bust of Charles IV, but changing the legend to Ferdinand VII. In the case of Bogota, the bust Charles IV was used continuously through Colombia's independence from Spain on August 7, 1819, with 1820 being the last date for this type. Lima minted these imaginary 8 reales from 1808 to 1811. The bust size varies over this period, ranging from large (1808) to medium (1809) to small by 1810-1811. Eight reales dated 1808 are the rarest, but some later varieties are quite scarce. By far 1811 is the most common Lima date with the imaginary bust. Later that year Lima began minting coins with the proper bust; those coins are quite rare. This coin is generally nice, but with a few small rim nicks and minor scratches. Peru, Ferdinand VII, 8 reales, Lima, 1808 JP. Large Bust. KM 106.1 27.2 grams Here's an example of Colombia's "frozen" portrait of Charles IV, with a Ferdinand VII legend. Colombia, 8 escudos, Ferdinand VII, Bogota, 1810JF. KM 66.1 26.8 grams Are there any other imaginary portrait coins out there? Please post if you wish and other coins are always welcome! Thanks
  18. Yes, hoard evidence points to the circulation of pharaonic owls in what is now Syria (1989 Syria Hoard) and Iraq (1973) to name two major groups. Owls issued under the Persian satraps Artaxerxes, Sabakes and Mazakes were included, along with Athenian intermediate owls and I think a few Athenian classical owls and non-owl coinage as well. My experience collecting imitative owls indicate a wide circulation area that includes Anatolia (roughly present day Turkey), Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran (Persia) the Arabian Peninsula, Bactria and India, although I don't have a documented owl from that country/region. Here's a link to a PDF for Peter G. van Alfen's article MECHANISMS FOR THE IMITATION OF ATHENIAN COINAGE : DEKELEIA AND MERCENARIES RECONSIDERED. It's well worth reading and bookmarking for future reference. I believe the article can be saved as a PDF file. http://www.numisbel.be/2011_4.pdf
  19. The reverse graffiti is tough to decipher, but here's a stab at it. From left to right there's a Phoenician N, then a W, then a P (?), perhaps a H on its side due to space limitations, ending perhaps with a Z. The characters could be Aramaic, but Phoenician seems a better fit. I'm almost totally ignorant when it comes to ancient languages and alphabets. I rely on what I can find using Google, which is by no means the best source. Here's a table of the Phoenician alphabet, courtesy Wikipedia:
  20. This is my only example with a halfway decent portrait is this provincial coin, rather crude and with somewhat rough surfaces. I wonder what was in those urns on the reverse. Valerian I, Æ 30, Anazarbus, Cilicia. CY 272 (253/4 AD) . )RPC X Online Unassigned ID 60270 (this coin cited) 17.85 grams
  21. Here are two more. Italy, Naples under Philip II of Spain, Kingdom of the two Sicilies, ducaton,, 1564-71. CNI XX, page 67, 578; Davenport 8317. 29.79 grams And his son: Italy, Naples under Philip III of Spain, Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, 1611 P, Messina. Spahr 5 31.59 grams
  22. That's a lovely 4 maravedis of Burgos! Wonderful centering and strike. That's a wonderful example! This coin reminds me of the PBS series Ornament of the World, a history of Moorish and Christian Spain. I would love to have a type coin such as this one and perhaps I'll get around to it.
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