JayAg47 Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 (edited) Looking at the coins, some of them were not even minted in the Italian peninsula, and some are not even ancient! Also none of the coins look to be really of value anyways. If all of them were corroded dekadrachms or 100s of tetradrachms with find patina, I could understand, but this lot just looks like a typical ancient coin collection of any collector. Yet another case of ignorant government officials scoring brownie points. https://www.eaglenews.ph/peru-returns-seized-roman-coins-to-italy/ Edited December 12, 2023 by JayAg47 10 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 (edited) 1st Rule Of Coin Club : Don't talk about Coin Club. 2nd Rule Of Coin Club : Don't take your coins to an airport. Regarding "Cultural Property" or "Cultural Heritage" or "Cultural Assets" or "Italian Heritage" (or any other country's "Heritage") or "Cultural Appropriation". For me, there is no such thing. For me, there is nothing wrong, with owning historical items or artifacts, which were created in other countries. As long as the items or artifacts were obtained legally. I wonder, if the Peru officials, had any proof, that the coins had been obtained illegally. Edited December 12, 2023 by sand 9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 2 hours ago, sand said: 1st Rule Of Coin Club : Don't talk about Coin Club I'm afraid there might come a time when we all have to say this here - and perhaps visit our forum on the darknet. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor LONGINUS Posted December 12, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 12, 2023 Interesting article, @JayAg47 Your post reminds me that I need to renew my membership to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild — https://accguild.org 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 (edited) This is just pure ignorance and stupidity! How is it possible that people without ANY clue about ancient coins decide what should happen to a collection that they accidentally find at an airport? I already get angry and high blood pressure when I get emails from DHL about supposed issues with coins that I bought. Roman coins from US auction houses, with a provenance, that I want to import to Switzerland. What happened to this poor collector is at the next level of stupidity and ignorance… Many of these coins look like they have never been to Italy before. Now these officials are celebrating - soon they will realize (if they even care - I think not!) that these coins are not special to anyone except the collector himself, no museum wants them, they will forget about them and one day, they will most likely be sold in an auction for low prices and be part of a private collection, again… There are art museums that buy NFTs! But almost no museum wants to invest in ancient coins. Apart from randomly confiscating ancient coins (without even trying to understand what they have confiscated) there seems to be almost no public interest. This happens when people create laws about things that they don't understand. Aarghh this makes me so angry. Edited December 12, 2023 by Salomons Cat 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, LONGINUS said: Interesting article, @JayAg47 Your post reminds me that I need to renew my membership to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild — https://accguild.org This looks like a really good thing. And they seem to be active and successful: https://accguild.org/Executive 10 hours ago, sand said: For me, there is nothing wrong, with owning historical items or artifacts, which were created in other countries. As long as the items or artifacts were obtained legally. I wonder, if the Peru officials, had any proof, that the coins had been obtained illegally. That's one of the main reason why this makes me so angry... When looking at the coins, they're certainly not from a recently discovered hoard. They're all rather low grade. It's difficult to judge their value without knowing any details, but they do not look like they're worth a fortune. By the way that these coins are put together (different times, different rulers, different denominations) it just looks like a normal coin collection. I highly doubt that it is even possible to provide any proof that any of them were acquired illegally. If it is so easy to confiscate a coin collection, then there is certainly something wrong with the law. Edited December 12, 2023 by Salomons Cat 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn235 Posted December 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 12, 2023 This seems to be more and more common. Completely ignoring the ethical implications of owning and trying to move undisclosed ancient coins.... I see at least 3 Italian 500 lira coin from the 1960s - in absolutely nobody's twisted world are >100 year old, mass produced coins that were legal tender until 2002 a part of "heritage". It boils my blood more than anything that once the ancient coins were discovered, the officials just took everything, even the stuff that is OBVIOUSLY legal to own. Reminds me of a story a few years ago where a guy got busted trying to cross from the US into Canada with like 2 binder pages of Indian and Afghani coins - ranging from a few low grade Kushan tetradrachms to mostly 18th century Mughal era rupees. They took them because "this looks like the kind of stuff that can't be obtained legally" and when the Afghani embassy declined to even take them, they instead decided to have a press release celebrating that they would be turned over to the local university to be "studied". Again, less than half of the confiscated coins were even treated as cultural heritage under the MOU. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieCollector Posted December 13, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2023 I take points on proof re illegally obtaines, and I think that's right. But the argument that they're low grade doesn't stand up. If they were illegally obtained they were illegally obtained (noting we don't know either way). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furryfrog02 Posted December 13, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 13, 2023 Big oof. Whoever confiscated these coins is a moron. I see several Byzantine coins in that picture....I wonder if now that they are "repatriating" them to Italy, will they be considered illegally obtained by the Italians since the originated in what is now Turkey? I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted December 13, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Furryfrog02 said: I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful. Yes, this is the biggest problem in my eyes - the unlawful and arbitrary confiscation of private property without (?) any due process at all. Even if the coins were more valuable pieces - if there is no apparent crime being committed, on what basis do the authorities have the right to simply seize them? In the end it's just sheer ignorance, I guess. Edited December 13, 2023 by CPK 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted December 13, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 13, 2023 I guess the modern stuff in there was "cultural heritage", too? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieCollector Posted December 14, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 14, 2023 On 12/13/2023 at 9:18 PM, Furryfrog02 said: Big oof. Whoever confiscated these coins is a moron. I see several Byzantine coins in that picture....I wonder if now that they are "repatriating" them to Italy, will they be considered illegally obtained by the Italians since the originated in what is now Turkey? I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful. Hahahaha. Greece will have to slug it out with Italy. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Victor_Clark Posted December 14, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 14, 2023 the person holding the box of coins is even wearing gloves 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted December 14, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 14, 2023 - 10 centesimi from the 1890s - 2x 5 leva from the 1890s (Bulgarian) - 2 Groschen from the 1920s (Austrian) - 3x 500 lira from no earlier than 1958. That's already 10% of this 'valuable collection' of 'Italian heritage'. Next time I go to Italy I'm going to check my pocket change in case I get arrested for smuggling cultural items. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Snible Posted December 14, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 14, 2023 12 minutes ago, John Conduitt said: - 2x 5 leva from the 1890s (Bulgarian) 1890s Bulgarian coins were struct at Kremnica in Slovakia. (This is the oldest operating European mint, they have been making money since 1328.) I feel Slovakia should have the primary claim to the two Bulgarian coins. The culture that produced the Bulgarian coins was Slovakian. Perhaps it could be argued that Austria has an even better claim to the Bulgarian coins, because the engraver of Bulgaria 5 leva, Anton Scharff, was Austrian. The coins merely circulated in Bulgaria. Did the Bulgarian coins even circulate in Bulgaria? They were struck on the standard of the Latin Monetary Union, and thus could have circulated in France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland. Perhaps this is why they were returned to Italy? 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted December 14, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 14, 2023 32 minutes ago, Ed Snible said: 1890s Bulgarian coins were struct at Kremnica in Slovakia. (This is the oldest operating European mint, they have been making money since 1328.) I feel Slovakia should have the primary claim to the two Bulgarian coins. The culture that produced the Bulgarian coins was Slovakian. Perhaps it could be argued that Austria has an even better claim to the Bulgarian coins, because the engraver of Bulgaria 5 leva, Anton Scharff, was Austrian. The coins merely circulated in Bulgaria. Did the Bulgarian coins even circulate in Bulgaria? They were struck on the standard of the Latin Monetary Union, and thus could have circulated in France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland. Perhaps this is why they were returned to Italy? I'm sure that this question of cultural heritage will become even easier to solve when the coins are a bit older. Let's just wait 1500 years and then we will see clearly to which country the coins should be repatriated. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted December 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 15, 2023 "The coins were seized from a Peruvian woman in 2021 at the international airport in Cusco." Oh great! So they'll let me carry on a few kilos of home grown blow, but I have to check and be sure my pocket change isn't dated before the 1960s! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted December 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 15, 2023 Great Britain does not intend to give back The Elgin Marbles to Greece or the Rosetta Stone to Egypt. France does not intend to give back the Mona Lisa to Italy. Germany does not intend to give back the Gates of Babylon to Iraq. And Italy does not intend to give back any of the many obelisks in the piazzas to Egypt. But this women is robbed of her @ $1000.00 coin collection? What shameful hypocrisy on such a colossal level! Those coins are going to wind up in someone else's pocket! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Grant Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 God they look like scratch tray coins, total junk , worth about zilch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted December 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 15, 2023 I wonder whether Italian or Peruvian taxpayers pay for the postage. The postage may well cost more than the coins. The storage and research costs may be less of a concern if the coins are added to a crate with other staff in a bulk storage facility 'for now'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcosx Posted December 17, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 17, 2023 What a waste of peoples time money and resources on something like this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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