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Posted (edited)

Looking at the coins, some of them were not even minted in the Italian peninsula, and some are not even ancient! Also none of the coins look to be really of value anyways. If all of them were corroded dekadrachms or 100s of tetradrachms with find patina, I could understand, but this lot just looks like a typical ancient coin collection of any collector.

Yet another case of ignorant government officials scoring brownie points.

https://www.eaglenews.ph/peru-returns-seized-roman-coins-to-italy/

rome-coins.jpg.ade3ffaf58ab0b953b26d033c89d3451.jpg

 

Edited by JayAg47
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Posted (edited)

1st Rule Of Coin Club : Don't talk about Coin Club.

2nd Rule Of Coin Club : Don't take your coins to an airport.

Regarding "Cultural Property" or "Cultural Heritage" or "Cultural Assets" or "Italian Heritage" (or any other country's "Heritage") or "Cultural Appropriation". For me, there is no such thing. For me, there is nothing wrong, with owning historical items or artifacts, which were created in other countries. As long as the items or artifacts were obtained legally. I wonder, if the Peru officials, had any proof, that the coins had been obtained illegally.

Edited by sand
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Posted (edited)

This is just pure ignorance and stupidity!

How is it possible that people without ANY clue about ancient coins decide what should happen to a collection that they accidentally find at an airport?

I already get angry and high blood pressure when I get emails from DHL about supposed issues with coins that I bought. Roman coins from US auction houses, with a provenance, that I want to import to Switzerland. 

What happened to this poor collector is at the next level of stupidity and ignorance… 

Many of these coins look like they have never been to Italy before. Now these officials are celebrating - soon they will realize (if they even care - I think not!) that these coins are not special to anyone except the collector himself, no museum wants them, they will forget about them and one day, they will most likely be sold in an auction for low prices and be part of a private collection, again… 

There are art museums that buy NFTs! But almost no museum wants to invest in ancient coins.
Apart from randomly confiscating ancient coins (without even trying to understand what they have confiscated) there seems to be almost no public interest. This happens when people create laws about things that they don't understand.

Aarghh this makes me so angry.

Edited by Salomons Cat
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LONGINUS said:

Interesting article, @JayAg47 

Your post reminds me that I need to renew my membership to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild — https://accguild.org

This looks like a really good thing.

And they seem to be active and successful:

https://accguild.org/Executive

10 hours ago, sand said:

For me, there is nothing wrong, with owning historical items or artifacts, which were created in other countries. As long as the items or artifacts were obtained legally. I wonder, if the Peru officials, had any proof, that the coins had been obtained illegally.

That's one of the main reason why this makes me so angry...
When looking at the coins, they're certainly not from a recently discovered hoard. They're all rather low grade. It's difficult to judge their value without knowing any details, but they do not look like they're worth a fortune. 
By the way that these coins are put together (different times, different rulers, different denominations) it just looks like a normal coin collection. I highly doubt that it is even possible to provide any proof that any of them were acquired illegally. If it is so easy to confiscate a coin collection, then there is certainly something wrong with the law.

Edited by Salomons Cat
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Posted

This seems to be more and more common.

Completely ignoring the ethical implications of owning and trying to move undisclosed ancient coins.... I see at least 3 Italian 500 lira coin from the 1960s - in absolutely nobody's twisted world are >100 year old, mass produced coins that were legal tender until 2002 a part of "heritage". It boils my blood more than anything that once the ancient coins were discovered, the officials just took everything, even the stuff that is OBVIOUSLY legal to own.

Reminds me of a story a few years ago where a guy got busted trying to cross from the US into Canada with like 2 binder pages of Indian and Afghani coins - ranging from a few low grade Kushan tetradrachms to mostly 18th century Mughal era rupees. They took them because "this looks like the kind of stuff that can't be obtained legally" and when the Afghani embassy declined to even take them, they instead decided to have a press release celebrating that they would be turned over to the local university to be "studied". Again, less than half of the confiscated coins were even treated as cultural heritage under the MOU.

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Posted

I take points on proof re illegally obtaines, and I think that's right.

But the argument that they're low grade doesn't stand up. If they were illegally obtained they were illegally obtained (noting we don't know either way).

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Posted

Big oof. Whoever confiscated these coins is a moron. I see several Byzantine coins in that picture....I wonder if now that they are "repatriating" them to Italy, will they be considered illegally obtained by the Italians since the originated in what is now Turkey? 
I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Furryfrog02 said:


I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful.

Yes, this is the biggest problem in my eyes - the unlawful and arbitrary confiscation of private property without (?) any due process at all. Even if the coins were more valuable pieces - if there is no apparent crime being committed, on what basis do the authorities have the right to simply seize them?

In the end it's just sheer ignorance, I guess.

Edited by CPK
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Posted
On 12/13/2023 at 9:18 PM, Furryfrog02 said:

Big oof. Whoever confiscated these coins is a moron. I see several Byzantine coins in that picture....I wonder if now that they are "repatriating" them to Italy, will they be considered illegally obtained by the Italians since the originated in what is now Turkey? 
I wonder if there is any recourse for the owner whose property was stolen by the authorities? Doubtful.

Hahahaha.

Greece will have to slug it out with Italy.

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Posted

- 10 centesimi from the 1890s
- 2x 5 leva from the 1890s (Bulgarian)
- 2 Groschen from the 1920s (Austrian)
- 3x 500 lira from no earlier than 1958.

That's already 10% of this 'valuable collection' of 'Italian heritage'.

Next time I go to Italy I'm going to check my pocket change in case I get arrested for smuggling cultural items.

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Posted
12 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

- 2x 5 leva from the 1890s (Bulgarian)

1890s Bulgarian coins were struct at Kremnica in Slovakia.  (This is the oldest operating European mint, they have been making money since 1328.)

I feel Slovakia should have the primary claim to the two Bulgarian coins.  The culture that produced the Bulgarian coins was Slovakian.

Perhaps it could be argued that Austria has an even better claim to the Bulgarian coins, because the engraver of Bulgaria 5 leva, Anton Scharff, was Austrian.  The coins merely circulated in Bulgaria.

Did the Bulgarian coins even circulate in Bulgaria?  They were struck on the standard of the Latin Monetary Union, and thus could have circulated in France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland.  Perhaps this is why they were returned to Italy?

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Posted
32 minutes ago, Ed Snible said:

1890s Bulgarian coins were struct at Kremnica in Slovakia.  (This is the oldest operating European mint, they have been making money since 1328.)

I feel Slovakia should have the primary claim to the two Bulgarian coins.  The culture that produced the Bulgarian coins was Slovakian.

Perhaps it could be argued that Austria has an even better claim to the Bulgarian coins, because the engraver of Bulgaria 5 leva, Anton Scharff, was Austrian.  The coins merely circulated in Bulgaria.

Did the Bulgarian coins even circulate in Bulgaria?  They were struck on the standard of the Latin Monetary Union, and thus could have circulated in France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland.  Perhaps this is why they were returned to Italy?

I'm sure that this question of cultural heritage will become even easier to solve when the coins are a bit older. Let's just wait 1500 years and then we will see clearly to which country the coins should be repatriated.

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Posted

"The coins were seized from a Peruvian woman in 2021 at the international airport in Cusco."

Oh great! So they'll let me carry on a few kilos of home grown blow, but I have to check and be sure my pocket change isn't dated before the 1960s!

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Posted

Great Britain does not intend to give back The Elgin Marbles to Greece or the Rosetta Stone to Egypt.

France does not intend to give back the Mona Lisa to Italy.

Germany does not intend to give back the Gates of Babylon to Iraq.

And Italy does not intend to give back any of the many obelisks in the piazzas to Egypt.

But this women is robbed of her @ $1000.00 coin collection?

What shameful hypocrisy on such a colossal level!

Those coins are going to wind up in someone else's pocket!

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Posted

I wonder whether Italian or Peruvian taxpayers pay for the postage. The postage may well cost more than the coins.

The storage and research costs may be less of a concern if the coins are added to a crate with other staff in a bulk storage facility 'for now'.

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