Leu Web Auction 28 - 9/14 Dec: some of my coins from my Collection are offered

[Prieure de Sion]

34 minutes ago, Limes said:

Second, leu offers thousands of coins in all their auctions. They have done this many times. So why conseign there?

Yes, I am very disappointed in myself and also angry with myself. I should have known - and that makes me upset with myself!

 

34 minutes ago, Limes said:

Third, how did the communication go.before consignment?

Yes - my additional information (pedigree, rare variants) was gladly accepted and ensured that it was mentioned (which it was not). It was not communicated that some of the coins would come in group lots.

 

34 minutes ago, Limes said:

I know a lot of sellers on e.g. MA shop get their coins on offer from auctions. You do too. Thats fine of course, and I also make use of it, if I missed something at an auction. But what I dont like, as @kirispupis mentions, is sellers buying coins only to offer them at a much higher price. Like your Nero sesterius, I can easy look up the price you got it at, and see for how much you now offer it. Its your choice, but as a buyer I avoid your offers because to me its not a fair market price. But thats my choice, and you will have hopefully a lot of customers of course. 

I really understand from a buyer/collector perspective! Absolutely!

But two things.

There are many collectors who avoid auctions. It's too complicated for them, they don't have time, they don't want to go through catalogs - no matter what the reason. Look, my regular customers aren't stupid. You know where I got the coins from. They know that I bought "cheaper" than what they will pay. But they want this service. You just shouldn't - rightly - take them for fools and gut them! You are willing to pay a fair price for a service. And I think that’s legitimate too.

Edit - and one argument too. If you take the coin from auction house - so can't give it back if you don't like the coin (optical)! Buy at a Shop Seller you can give it back 14-30 days without any discussion! Only the Seller have the risk - you not! And Risk costs money. And - for example with my offers - you can see a the coin live with Video not a non realistic picture - you get what you see. Video Service cost me time - and time costs money 😉 ... my customers like this advantages. 

Look at auctions, there are also middlemen who buy on their behalf as a service for buyers at auctions. They also cost money! The trade is faster than in normal sales - but in the end it is also a trade. I can also hire a service to make purchases at auctions for me. It is nothing else.

Second - using the example of Nero. If you had bought the Nero, you would have had to pay almost 1800 euros (at least if you live in a country that charges money for import). Yes, you pay 200 euros more with me. But there isn't that much difference.

But what I wanted to show above all - a dealer who buys a coin for a thousand and sells it again for 2.5 times as much - is not greedy! I actually ask far too little for Nero as a merchant! Again - a person who has to support his family from his business would easily have to charge 2500. Then he's not greedy - he's just doing normal business calculations. Anything else would be commercial suicide.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Prieure de Sion]

14 minutes ago, Limes said:

Edit: its the Nero with the arc reverse, portrait to the left by the way. 

Oh, that's what you mean 😉

OK. Two things about it. That would be the famous little lottery win. Every 3-6 months you have a lucky break. The Nero was for 360 euros! But you also have to remember - it was unclear whether this was a fake or not - which is probably why it was so cheap at auction.

But again - this is the "lucky hit" that you urgently need as a dealer every few months! A coin that is sold well below price. And where you can make a really good profit (at a fair selling price). Because you need this extra profit to make up for your losses with fraudsters, for example.

What can you as a buyer do to ensure that another buyer was a fraud?

Welcome to trading! Your grocery store also calculates the loss due to theft into the sales prices of your pasta, coffee, toilet paper, etc. From a commercial perspective, it would be completely idiotic not to do this.

And now the second thing - I don't want to sell the Nero with the Arch - that's why the price is so high. We dealers call these favorite pieces that we don't actually want to sell and if we do, then only at collector's-love-prices. Yes, that really exists. A coin has an extremely high price because you don't want to sell it - but you would like to present the coin in the shop. This is completely normal.

😉 

[Meander]

So why did you even consign with Leu? You are German, I am right? There are several German auction houses that cater for different categories of customers. No exchange rate risk, no customs issues (however improbable). It seems you thought Leu was getting better prices. Or did they give you a lower fee?

But, as @ajax has pointed out, the auction house is putting their own coins into their auctions and they may be getting better prices than those of the other consignors. Coincidence? I dont think so.

[sand]

For myself, I appreciate dealers, and auction houses. If I had to buy all of my coins from other collectors, then I'd never buy any coins, because it would be too risky, too inconvenient, and too time consuming. Also, I don't mind, that some dealers buy coins from other dealers or auction houses, and then later sell the coins for higher prices. For me, that's an inevitable consequence of a free market. Also, as mentioned above, dealers and auction houses have to pay for the costs of doing business, such as advertising, maintaining a web site, credit card fees, some customers who steal the coins by pretending they didn't receive the coins, auction buyer fees, etc.

Also, for myself, there are many situations, in which I would buy from 1 dealer, but I wouldn't buy from another dealer. For example, for the past year, I've only bought from US dealers. As another example, I have more confidence in some dealers, because some dealers seem better able to identify fakes, and tooled coins. Also, I don't have time, to look at every auction, and every dealer's web site. Therefore, I like the fact, that dealers buy coins from other dealers or auction houses. It allows the coins to "circulate", so that I can have more choices.

Also, some persons simply enjoy making a huge profit on a coin. Many collectors do it. It doesn't bother me, at all.

@Prieure de Sion I appreciate your posts about the Leu auction. It's interesting information. I hope, that you won't beat yourself up too much, about your losses at the Leu auction. You did the best, that you knew how to do. That's all any of us can ever do.

[Prieure de Sion]

10 minutes ago, sand said:

@Prieure de Sion I appreciate your posts about the Leu auction. It's interesting information. I hope, that you won't beat yourself up too much, about your losses at the Leu auction. You did the best, that you knew how to do. That's all any of us can ever do.

All good 🙂 I'm just a bit disappointed with Lei. Disappointed that, in my view, they didn't use important existing information, it wasn't agreed and communicated to put coins in group lots (and poorly presented too) - and I'm disappointed that they didn't respond to my contact and didn't reply. That is disappointing for me. But it was also a résumé. I have learnt from it. And after this summary, the Leu Auction issue is also closed for me.
 
 

11 minutes ago, sand said:

For myself, I appreciate dealers, and auction houses.

I also think this is completely legitimate. The important thing is that everyone treats each other fairly. Also when it comes to prices. Then I think everything is ok.

[kirispupis]

2 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

But again - this is the "lucky hit" that you urgently need as a dealer every few months! A coin that is sold well below price. And where you can make a really good profit (at a fair selling price). Because you need this extra profit to make up for your losses with fraudsters, for example.

I believe we're on the same page here, but just using your Nero sestertius as an example, you bought it for 360 Euros and have it listed for 1600. However, when I looked at similar examples at recent auctions, your price of 1600 is pretty much in line. It's not a bargain, but neither is it unreasonable.

Now, imagine I really wanted this Nero sestertius, and so at auction I put in a bid for 1500, because this was the absolute max I could afford and it's a fair market price. You scoop it up for 1600, then list it for 3500. This is what some sellers (Shanna Schmidt and Numiscorner are among the worst examples) do and when I see it they go on my blacklist.

By all means if you get a great deal list the coin at market.

[Prieure de Sion]

9 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Now, imagine I really wanted this Nero sestertius, and so at auction I put in a bid for 1500, because this was the absolute max I could afford and it's a fair market price. You scoop it up for 1600, then list it for 3500. This is what some sellers (Shanna Schmidt and Numiscorner are among the worst examples) do and when I see it they go on my blacklist.

My opinion is - it is not a crime to buy a coin at a lucky price and sell it at a normal market price.

Let's assume - you were at a private flea market and you happen to discover a genuine Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra coin. You got this coin for 100 USD - but it is worth 10.000 USD! 
 
But you don't collect Republicans at all. But you still buy this coin because it is simply an unbelievably good price. And anyone would buy this coin for 100 USD and not miss out on this opportunity.

Since you are happy about this lucky find - but can't really do anything with it - you want to sell the coin.

Would you now sell this genuine Antonius / Cleopatra coin at its market value of 10.000 USD - or would you say never, then I'm greedy and making 1000% profit - that's not fair, so I'll sell the coin for 200 USD.

So I am 100% sure - no one here who find for 300 USD a Nero Bronze (market value 1500 USD) sell it later for 400 USD - when can get the market price of 1.500 USD. Even USD 600 would not work, that would already be 100% - and we have learnt before that something like that is greedy 😉 

But seriously - again - making a lucky purchase, getting a coin by chance at a top price well below true market value - but then selling it at fair market price - is nothing reprehensible in my view. 
 
It's not the buyer's fault if he happened to get the coin at an incredibly cheap price. He does not have to sell it far too cheaply because of this. 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

9 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

My opinion is - it is not a crime to buy a coin at a lucky price and sell it at a normal market price.

Let's assume - you were at a private flea market and you happen to discover a genuine Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra coin. You got this coin for 100 USD - but it is worth 10.000 USD! 
 
But you don't collect Republicans at all. But you still buy this coin because it is simply an unbelievably good price. And anyone would buy this coin for 100 USD and not miss out on this opportunity.

Since you are happy about this lucky find - but can't really do anything with it - you want to sell the coin.

Would you now sell this genuine Antonius / Cleopatra coin at its market value of 10.000 USD - or would you say never, then I'm greedy and making 1000% profit - that's not fair, so I'll sell the coin for 200 USD.

So I am 100% sure - no one here who find for 300 USD a Nero Bronze (market value 1500 USD) sell it later for 400 USD - when can get the market price of 1.500 USD. Even USD 600 would not work, that would already be 100% - and we have learnt before that something like that is greedy 😉 

But seriously - again - making a lucky purchase, getting a coin by chance at a top price well below true market value - but then selling it at fair market price - is nothing reprehensible in my view. 
 
It's not the buyer's fault if he happened to get the coin at an incredibly cheap price. He does not have to sell it far too cheaply because of this. 

the difference is the systematic purchase of said coins versus a rare occasion

[Prieure de Sion]

1 minute ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

the difference is the systematic purchase of said coins versus a rare occasion

😄 

I've been waiting for that argument.

So first of all, you can't systematically look for lucky prices. A lucky price is more of a coincidence (the coin is overlooked as an example).

But also - if a dealer accidentally buys a coin far below market price, he has to sell it again below market price - otherwise it's morally wrong? If a private collector is lucky enough to get a coin below market price, he may sell the coin at market price - is that morally okay?

So the dealer is not allowed to do that - the private collector is. But that is morally very selective. Sorry 🙂 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Someone is consistently skimming at auctions, either causing collectors to pay more when the dealer is the underbidder or to have people lose their targets so the dealer can list that exact same coin at a 3x markup without adding any value. Im not sure what I am missing here

Edited December 23, 2023 by TheTrachyEnjoyer

[Prieure de Sion]

14 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

Someone is consistently skimming at auctions, either causing collectors to pay more when the dealer is the underbidder or to have people lose their targets so the dealer can list that exact same coin at a 3x markup without adding any value. Im not sure what I am missing here

So come on people. You can't be serious.

A car dealer is also constantly looking for new cars for his business! He also looks everywhere where he can find and buy cars.

If he finds an old vintage Porsche in the barn for 5000 USD that is worth 50,000 USD - does anyone here really demand that he sells the Porsche for a maximum of 10,000 USD because otherwise it would be morally bad? People. He will sell the Porsche at its current market value - no matter how cheaply he bought it. That's completely normal and perfectly fine.

And in your opinion, he shouldn't have bought the find in the barn in the first place as a dealer - because he took this opportunity away from a private buyer? So morally he should have refrained from buying it from the barn? So that he didn't take away the chance of a happy purchase from a private buyer?

Are retailers then generally not allowed to buy cheap goods? So traders are only allowed to buy if the purchase price is normal - but if it is too cheap they are not allowed to buy? Or best of all, are all traders not allowed to buy at the same time where private buyers buy?

I understand your frustration - I really do. But it is the same everywhere in the world: as a buyer, you are not only competing with other private buyers, but also with business buyers.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Prieure de Sion]

32 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

Someone is consistently skimming at auctions, either causing collectors to pay more when the dealer is the underbidder or to have people lose their targets so the dealer can list that exact same coin at a 3x markup without adding any value. Im not sure what I am missing here

Btw… 

I know what you mean. Collecting coins is also emotional. And it's quite clear to me that it annoys you when a dealer buys a coin you love in front of your eyes - which you also wanted - and a week later you see the coin you want for a lot of money in a shop. That is annoying. I understand that.

But in the end, you have to accept that this is our free market economy in which we all live well.

I'm also looking for a car at the moment - and here, too, dealers will snap up cars that they will buy from privately sellers. And I will see these cars in their shops later.  

But what is the consequence? Do we now ban car dealers from buying cars from private individuals - just so that I have the chance to buy my car from private individuals? Do we then ban other retail sectors as well?

 
PS fun fact: the Nero Sestertius I get for 360€ - this was my pre-bid and no one bids more. Why didn't you (or others) just bid €370? I didn't bid live. Is it my fault that none of you wanted the Nero for €370? You all could have easily bought the Nero! It's not my fault - that nobody wanted the Nero for cheap money 😄 

PPS: and now it’s Christmas time - wish all a freedom time with all people you love. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[ambr0zie]

Just my 0,02 follis here

1. Merry Christmas to everyone and I hope all of us will have a valuable time with our families, friends and coins
2. I see at least 2 valid points addressed by our colleague: a) grouping valuable coins in lots without his permission AND not publishing pictures of reverses - wrong and b) not writing the complete description on individual coins, missing important details such as provenance, rarity. Plus the quality of the photos - a little negligent. I am sorry for this, @Prieure de Sion. I never bought from Leu. One of the reasons is the customs. If you ever decide to consign coins, you will surely pick a different house. I am a little surprised since I had a different opinion about them 
3. Some colleagues mentioned flipping for profit, you provided your (valid) arguments - it's clear that you do not expect 100% profit, but this doesn't mean only one side is correct. You are a dealer - and a good and experienced one so you know better than me than there are random factors that can affect profit on selling coins ... this time it all went bad for you, but I'm sure on other occasions you were successful. And you will be again .... and there is a big chance a situation similar to Leu will happen again. 
Side note - even if I am a budget collector (and I am not ashamed of this - I like my coins and this is the budget I allocate) I think more than once I bought coins from auctions extremely cheaply. The consignors were probably s annoyed as you are. It happens ... but what can I do? on dozens of coins I was prepared to offer 150 euros, for examples. Not my fault if the other bidders stopped at 50 or 70. And/or if the coins were not properly described. 
4. Selling coins on your vcoins store is safer, but much slower so I understand why you decided to consign them, even with the loss you were anticipating. Why don't you consider hosting your own auctions? I am not entirely sure about the process, but on Biddr I know there are some small houses - I know for sure that many houses have a very small number of employees. I don't know if they are one man business, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

Advantages - no consignor's fees, you write your own descriptions and use your own pictures and I also think you can choose the starting bid. If you expect, let's say, 200 euros for a coin, you can put the starting bid 150. Better to be unsold at the auction than to be hammerred at 40. 

The only disadvantages I see - some work in preparing the descriptions AND lots of work in packaging and shipping. This is indeed hard work especially if you want to do it fast. I can confirm that I bought once from you and you were extraordinarily fast and the packaging was excellent. Not sure if you can handle 2-300 envelopes in a timely manner - you should know better ... 

[JayAg47]

Just my opinion, I'm a buyer who have never sold any coins yet. I do come across some gems once in a while, for instance, this tetradrachm of Mazakes in a group lot containing 13 coins for just 60 bucks, and if I average the price for the coins, it would be just $5 each! now if that's not a steal, i don't know what is. BUT, if i were to sell it, no way am I going to list it for even 500 dollars given it's market price, now that would be more than 10000% markup. I'm basing this on sales from coinarchives and this coin listed by the dealer who has a reputation of overpricing their coins. While my reverse is totally obliterated, it is still a 1000-1500 dollar coin, although for a coin like this it is really hard to find a buyer due to its nichness, resulting in it being listed for ages, and also you could not list it for any cheaper. 

On the other hand, I literally brought back this coin from death, making a slug into a coin that will fetch decent amount either in auctions or in retail. If I were a seller I'd have listed it as soon as I cleaned the coin for a handsome profit, but I just love it so much to part with. In this case I think the seller has every right to determine the price of the coin around the market limit despite for how much ever they bought it. 

Now from the POV of a buyer, I came across this denarius listed as fourree by Numiscorner for around 80 euros I think, but I had a hunch it could just be horn silver, so I had it in my watchlist, but it got sold before I decided to buy it. Some days latter, the coin was listed on Vcoins for 310 euros, which is absolutely reasonable for this coin, but since I've already saw the original price, i just couldn't bring myself to buy it for the new price. This can also apply for auction listings, if I happen to lose a coin, and see it again listed for higher than what I would've paid, I just skip over.

Now I understand there are faults in both parties, the consignor for choosing the wrong type of auction house to consign coins that would've done well in other smaller houses or even retail. And the auction house for not fully honouring the wishes of the consignor. It's all just a lesson in life, albeit an expensive one. 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by JayAg47

[DonnaML]

4 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

My opinion is - it is not a crime to buy a coin at a lucky price and sell it at a normal market price.

. . . .

But seriously - again - making a lucky purchase, getting a coin by chance at a top price well below true market value - but then selling it at fair market price - is nothing reprehensible in my view. 
 
It's not the buyer's fault if he happened to get the coin at an incredibly cheap price. He does not have to sell it far too cheaply because of this. 

That's really not the situation @kirispupis was addressing. What he was talking about was the very different situation in which a dealer pays $1,600 (or less) at auction for a coin with a usual market value of $1600,  but "then list[s] it for 3500. This is what some sellers (Shanna Schmidt and Numiscorner are among the worst examples) do and when I see it they go on my blacklist. By all means if you get a great deal list the coin at market." 

Seeing retail dealers consistently list coins that are hardly superb -- whatever they paid for them -- for 2x or 3x or an even higher multiple of fair market value angers me as well. @kirispupis named two dealers whom I agree are among the worst offenders.  I'm sorry to say that another offender is CNG in their own retail shop. Their prices are absurdly high for coins that are definitely nothing special in terms of condition or pedigree.  

Separately, did Leu's consignment contract with you permit them to put any coins they wished into group lots? If it did, please make sure that next time, whichever is the auction house you deal with, the contract provides that they cannot do that without your consent. If they won't agree, take your coins elsewhere. For example, when I consigned my Vespasian aureus to CNG earlier this year, I made sure that the contract stated that it would be sold only in their September Feature Auction, and not in one of their regular e-auctions. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by DonnaML

[Salomons Cat]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

Separately, did Leu's consignment contract with you permit them to put any coins they wished into group lots? If it did, please make sure that next time, whichever is the auction house you deal with, the contract provides that they cannot do that without your consent. 

Leu is a Swiss auction house. In Switzerland, there is something that is a legal principle that is called "Good Faith". It protects the parties’ reasonable and fair expectations in any legal transaction. It cannot be excluded from any contract.
If Prieure de Sion sent them an email with the information about the coins and Leu did not inform him that they would ignore it, then he could obviously expect that the core elements would be included. At least that's my conclusion. How a judge decides is usually not predictable.

Anyway - the legal aspects are one thing, but morally it just doesn't seem correct to me. PdS gathered all of this information and supplied them with it. They did not include any of it and put the coins in a group lot. It does not seem okay to me what they did here. Anyone of us would be angry.

I'm also a bit angry at Leu for another reason. There were so many great coins in this auction... I'm disappointed because I couldn't buy all of them. Not only the Commodi. Look at this Vespasian! Or that one!! It believe that they would have fit well in my collection... When looking at acsearch, I must say that it's hard to find better deals for such coins. 
Partially because Judaea capta coins seem to sell for a lot more in the US than in Europe. That distorts the view. But still, these coins would have been good deals.
I'm a bit sorry for James Knox and his collection of biblical coins. Apparently, he did not notice that. But to me it seems like something obvious when I look at the acsearch results.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Salomons Cat

[lordmarcovan]

2 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

PdS gathered all of this information and supplied them with it. They did not include any of it and put the coins in a group lot. It does not seem okay to me what they did here. Anyone of us would be angry.

I certainly would have been.  Sorry it was a bloodbath, @Prieure de Sion.

[ajax]

8 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

Someone is consistently skimming at auctions, either causing collectors to pay more when the dealer is the underbidder or to have people lose their targets so the dealer can list that exact same coin at a 3x markup without adding any value. Im not sure what I am missing here 

Dealers constantly bidding in auctions are:

1. Artificially inflating the prices

2. Demotivating and frustrating collectors

3. Making it impossible to estimate prices real collectors would be willing to pay

If dealers would offer fair prices, more collectors would sell to them or consign in their eshops. But no, they would prefer to offer peanuts but then pay 3 times more for the same coin when it gets in auction.

And Shanna Berk is distorting the market and annoying everyone - except perhaps for her client.

Edited December 24, 2023 by ajax

[SimonW]

2 hours ago, ajax said:

Dealers constantly bidding in auctions are:

1. Artificially inflating the prices

2. Demotivating and frustrating collectors

3. Making it impossible to estimate prices real collectors would be willing to pay

If dealers would offer fair prices, more collectors would sell to them or consign in their eshops. But no, they would prefer to offer peanuts but then pay 3 times more for the same coin when it gets in auction.

And Shanna Berk is distorting the market and annoying everyone - except perhaps for her client.

Dealers usually don't buy for themselves, but for their clients, either directly or indirectly, making a margin (arbitrage). This is possible because not all collectors constantly follow all auctions worldwide. The same thing happens with stocks when they are traded on different markets. Arbitrage brokers will buy on the market where prices are lower and sell on the market where prices are higher.

I can't argue with your second point, but your first and third points are only true for very rare coins where dealers might try to control the supply.

[Prieure de Sion]

10 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

1. Merry Christmas to everyone and I hope all of us will have a valuable time with our families, friends and coins

Yes. marry Christmas to all 🙂 

 

10 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

2. I see at least 2 valid points addressed by our colleague

Exactly, these are the main points that annoy me.

 

10 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

Side note - even if I am a budget collector (and I am not ashamed of this - I like my coins and this is the budget I allocate) I think more than once I bought coins from auctions extremely cheaply.

That would also be the worst thing. Nobody needs to be ashamed of their coins! Especially not here. Every coin has a story. There are no good or bad coins. All coins have a place here! Nobody has "better" coins just because they were more expensive or better preserved. 

 

10 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

Why don't you consider hosting your own auctions?

Because you're always smarter in the end 🙂 ... now I had asked myself the same question. I should have asked @SimonW in advance what criteria were necessary and I should have done that. 

 

10 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

The only disadvantages I see - some work in preparing the descriptions AND lots of work in packaging and shipping. This is indeed hard work especially if you want to do it fast. I can confirm that I bought once from you and you were extraordinarily fast and the packaging was excellent. Not sure if you can handle 2-300 envelopes in a timely manner - you should know better ... 

I also have the effort with descriptions etc. in my shop per coin. And my wife and daughter have to help with the shipping 🙂 ... but as you say - you learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately sometimes only afterwards. But you can learn 🙂 

 

 

10 hours ago, JayAg47 said:

Now I understand there are faults in both parties, the consignor for choosing the wrong type of auction house to consign coins that would've done well in other smaller houses or even retail. And the auction house for not fully honouring the wishes of the consignor. It's all just a lesson in life, albeit an expensive one. 

I can subscribe to that, that's what it is... a lesson. It will happen again and again in life.

 

 

8 hours ago, DonnaML said:

That's really not the situation @kirispupis was addressing. What he was talking about was the very different situation in which a dealer pays $1,600 (or less) at auction for a coin with a usual market value of $1600,  but "then list[s] it for 3500. This is what some sellers (Shanna Schmidt and Numiscorner are among the worst examples) do and when I see it they go on my blacklist. By all means if you get a great deal list the coin at market." 

This happens when English is not the native language. Sometimes I don't quite understand the meaning or I get it wrong. Now I have understood it. Yes yes Numiscorner - I don't write anything about it.But I don't understand the meaning either. Because I want to sell coins. I can't do that with unrealistic prices. 
 
I would say - and I hope I'm right - that I (like most dealers) demand realistic, fair prices. Otherwise, I wouldn't sell any coins either. And no coin stays in my shop for long. So I must be doing something right. And as I already wrote - collectors are not stupid - they know the market prices, they can also see where the coin is from and at what price it was auctioned. My customers allow me a surcharge for the service - but you can't take them for fools. Then they'll turn their backs on you. 

And my customers have no problem knowing that I happily bought a Nero at auction for EUR 360 and am selling it at a normal market price. They don't demand that I then pass the Nero on for 500 EUR. I've made a lucky grab - and it's okay for it to be sold for a fair market price. 

 

8 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Seeing retail dealers consistently list coins that are hardly superb -- whatever they paid for them -- for 2x or 3x or an even higher multiple of fair market value angers me as well.

Ok, I understand that. But I don't think it's the majority of dealers. 

 

8 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Separately, did Leu's consignment contract with you permit them to put any coins they wished into group lots? If it did, please make sure that next time, whichever is the auction house you deal with, the contract provides that they cannot do that without your consent. If they won't agree, take your coins elsewhere. For example, when I consigned my Vespasian aureus to CNG earlier this year, I made sure that the contract stated that it would be sold only in their September Feature Auction, and not in one of their regular e-auctions. 

As I wrote above, you learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately, this was only my second auction in which I submitted coins. The first time it was Naumann - he described all the coins back then and all the coins, including 50 EUR coins - were offered by Naumann as single lots. I foolishly assumed that Leu would do the same. And if not - that I would be contacted briefly "We would like to put coin A, B, C etc in a group lot - is that ok for you?".After all, these are my coins and my money. I actually expect to be asked back. I could have said "no, then I would like these coins back, they won't go into a group slot".

And you're right about the second paragraph - I should have put my Commodus large bronze / medallion in a live auction or insisted that it be used later in a live auction. But as I wrote - I had the Naumann auction as experience and assumed that everything would go well at a renowned auction house. A mistake. I also assumed that they would respond to my complaint - but all I got in response was the commission invoice. I found the communication very poor as a result.
 
But of course you can go on forever. I had a bad experience and didn't feel that I was well looked after as a consignor and that my goods were not presented well. And a negative experience can also be publicised to customers. Next time I'll know what to look out for. The stupid thing for me was - I expected too much because of the reputation and was too passive. As you say, I should have had a few things guaranteed to be on the safe side! 

But the subject of Leu is now closed for me.

 

 

4 hours ago, ajax said:

If dealers would offer fair prices, more collectors would sell to them or consign in their eshops. But no, they would prefer to offer peanuts but then pay 3 times more for the same coin when it gets in auction.

You keep talking about dealers (plural). But I have to disagree. As if all or the majority of dealers are selling completely overpriced coins and snapping up all the coins from auctions. The majority of dealers offer their coins at normal, fair prices. After all, we also want to sell coins and not hold them.

 

 

1 hour ago, SimonW said:

Dealers usually don't buy for themselves, but for their clients, either directly or indirectly, making a margin (arbitrage). This is possible because not all collectors constantly follow all auctions worldwide. The same thing happens with stocks when they are traded on different markets. Arbitrage brokers will buy on the market where prices are lower and sell on the market where prices are higher.

Thank you Simon! Exactly, we buy for customers. For example, I try to buy only those coins that I know are interesting for my regular customers and that they are likely to buy. I'm sure other dealers do the same. Anything else would be complete rubbish, even as a merchant. 

And this happens everywhere in the world that is a free market economy. There are always middlemen and there are always fees. A service - no matter what kind - always costs money. I can try to buy shares directly myself - or I can get advice from my bank's broker and my bank will then buy the shares for me - but I will then have to pay money for it. I can do my own private search to look for a car - or I like it more convenient and go to the dealer. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. But it will be a little more expensive at the dealer. But I also have advantages. Everyone has to decide for themselves - but it is pointless to demonize these choices.

 

4 hours ago, ajax said:

1. Artificially inflating the prices

2. Demotivating and frustrating collectors

3. Making it impossible to estimate prices real collectors would be willing to pay

Oh yes? Then please also demonize the auction houses and platforms like Sixbid and Biddr!
 
An auction house wants to have fees that significantly increase the price of the goods! And if platforms like biddr and Sixbid are involved - their fees must somehow flow into the prices. In your opinion, all of this drives up prices unnecessarily.
 
And when it comes to inflation - or as you say, determining the real market value - then auctions are the devil's work for you. What if two or three bidders fight over a coin? A Domitian whose market value is 500 EUR reaches 1000 EUR due to a bidding war. This is not a real market value. And collectors are constantly fighting bidding wars at auctions, resulting in unrealistic prices for individual coins. Consequently, auction houses are also to blame for higher prices through their fees and through the auctions themselves, in terms of unrealistic market values when a bidding war occurs.
 
Then I assume you would like it if only private people sold and bought privately? A nice romantic idea - unfortunately completely unrealistic.
 
PS: The dealers are certainly not to blame for the inflationary, explosive rise in coin prices since Corona! In the auctions, ever higher prices were achieved and more and more auctions with ever higher prices.
 
But in the end it was up to the buyers. Those who had a lot of time to collect and bought a lot during the Corona phase - who rediscovered the hobby - and who increasingly relied on tangible assets in uncertain times and a capital flight from cash into tangible assets took place and still exists. Neither dealers nor auction houses bought the market empty for themselves - the collectors themselves took care of the exploding demand (and rising prices/inflation of market values).

[sand]

For me, there is no such thing, as "fair market value". For me, a coin is worth, what someone is willing to pay for it.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

48 minutes ago, sand said:

For me, there is no such thing, as "fair market value". For me, a coin is worth, what someone is willing to pay for it.

That seems foolish. Coins, like any commodity, can be bought at a cheap or expensive price. People can be cheated and swindled. People can be well treated and given fair prices. Just because someone is willing to pay a rate does not mean it is moral to charge it

 

BTW I am not accusing anyone in particular here, Im simply disagreeing that a sold coin at “market price” is alway justified

Edited December 24, 2023 by TheTrachyEnjoyer

[idesofmarch01]

This has been a very interesting thread -- not only the topic itself but also the strength and depth of the responses it has elicited. 

I fully understand the OP's disappointment with his results, especially based on his expectations from Leu.  To his great credit, he acknowledges his own role and responsibility in not obtaining more information about the auction prior to consigning his coins, but much of this was information that he couldn't be expected to ask about, especially based on reasonable assumptions about Leu.  E.g., you wouldn't normally expect an auction house to group your coins into (seemingly random) lots unilaterally and without notifying you; nor would you think to ask how big the auction was ("Is it 7,000+ coins?") -- this was obviously a huge factor in driving prices lower.

Personally, though, I've been puzzled and a little bewildered by the (mostly) unsupported assertions, along with some of the more judgmental adjectives, directed at not only the OP, but dealers and auction houses in general.  

One of the assertions was that the OP and the auction house were trying to "flip" the coins that were offered.  Is this really true?  And if so, what's wrong with it?  Any dealer who buys coins at an auction will almost immediately list them ("flip" them?) at a (sometimes significant) markup in his/her store based on what he/she believes they're worth in the retail market.  Sometimes these markups are reasonable, sometimes they're absurdly unrealistic, but that's a risk taken by the dealer.  Plus, this assertion was peripheral to the points that the OP was trying to elucidate.

But more puzzling, at least to me, are the multiple assertions by members here about what is a "fair market price" or "fair prices" and their frustration, and even anger, at being outbid by others who evidently set their fair market price at a higher maximum bid.  Any auction is only a snapshot of the coins that are currently offered.  If a collector or dealer really wants a particular coin, that coin's hammer price probably won't reflect previous hammer prices.   There's almost no way of knowing what the demand will be for any specific coin at any specific auction, and you always run the risk of being outbid by a collector who just "has to have" that coin, or a dealer who's going to add it to his/her online catalog at an absurdly high markup in the hope of turning a large profit.  This has happened to almost everyone here who has bid on auctions.  All you can do is hope that the next time such a coin comes up for auction, the bidding won't be as fierce.

Even more puzzling is use of the adjective "moral" to describe the pricing choices of dealers who buy coins at auction.  Is it "immoral" to price coins in a way that is too expensive for my or your personal budget?  How does this adjective even apply?  The only principles that absolutely govern coin dealers and auction houses are laws -- the country's laws, and the auction's or dealer's Terms and Conditions of Sales.  That's it.  While it can be argued that dealers should act ethically (NOT the same as morally), the definition of "ethically" can be a grey area, and as far as I know acting ethically isn't a requirement and won't help you in a court of law (unless of course the country's laws state this).  The assertion that "someone" is "skimming" at auctions and causing collectors to "pay more" is not only unsupported but flies in the face of financial common sense: dealers who consistently overbid for coins and list them for unrealistic prices are unlikely to stay in business very long.  The best tactic in dealing with an unethical dealer is simply to stop doing business with them.

Dealers who buy at auctions make mistakes too.  They may overestimate the future market for the coins on which they bid, or might even be trying to drive prices upward in the long run -- this is possibly why so many ancient coins are being slabbed nowadays.  None of us here likes this idea, but other than sticking to a reasonable budget at auctions, and not doing business with dealers and auction houses that you consider unethical, I'm not sure anything else effectively can be done.

 

[Prieure de Sion]

I actually didn't want to dig up this thread anymore - but this company is getting on my last nerve. And the service is getting worse.

I also won a coin in the said auction. It's borderline crazy to say that we'll hold an auction in mid-December, but won't start shipping the goods until a month later. But you already know that from the Leu auction and then vacation. But OK. You knew that.

What's getting on my nerves again today with this company.

I sent Leu a PDF document for German customs in December after the auction. We have put together a PDF in the German Numismatics Forum with the customs number and, above all, the justification for the customs tariff. We ask the auction houses to add this PDF to the package. Since then, it has rarely happened that we pay the wrong 19% tax, but rather the correct 7% tax.

Long story short.

I also sent the PDF to Leu and asked other auction houses to please include this customs paper in the shipment. Leu replied that of course they will do so.

Today the postman rings and wants 180 euros (200 USD) in customs fees from me. But actually it should be around 70 euros (75 USD). So I was charged 19% tax, why?

Why? Because of course there was nothing there. Leu didn't attach my PDF as promised. It was just an invoice and from the item description you couldn't even tell that it was an antique collector's coin. The goods were not even declared as such at least. Of course the customs officer didn't know what exactly the content was and has now taken 19%.

110 euros (120 USD) was completely unnecessarily overpaid.

Thank you for this “great” service.

[Limes]

27 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I actually didn't want to dig up this thread anymore - but this company is getting on my last nerve. And the service is getting worse.

I also won a coin in the said auction. It's borderline crazy to say that we'll hold an auction in mid-December, but won't start shipping the goods until a month later. But you already know that from the Leu auction and then vacation. But OK. You knew that.

What's getting on my nerves again today with this company.

I sent Leu a PDF document for German customs in December after the auction. We have put together a PDF in the German Numismatics Forum with the customs number and, above all, the justification for the customs tariff. We ask the auction houses to add this PDF to the package. Since then, it has rarely happened that we pay the wrong 19% tax, but rather the correct 7% tax.

Long story short.

I also sent the PDF to Leu and asked other auction houses to please include this customs paper in the shipment. Leu replied that of course they will do so.

Today the postman rings and wants 180 euros (200 USD) in customs fees from me. But actually it should be around 70 euros (75 USD). So I was charged 19% tax, why?

Why? Because of course there was nothing there. Leu didn't attach my PDF as promised. It was just an invoice and from the item description you couldn't even tell that it was an antique collector's coin. The goods were not even declared as such at least. Of course the customs officer didn't know what exactly the content was and has now taken 19%.

110 euros (120 USD) was completely unnecessarily overpaid.

Thank you for this “great” service.

Is there the possibility to ask your postal service the tax fee that you paid unnecessarily to be paid back to you?