Leu Web Auction 28 - 9/14 Dec: some of my coins from my Collection are offered

[Brennos]

I feel sorry for you !!

I had the same experience with Leu. I consigned 15 Greek coins of low to medium quality in 2019. 

2 went well
7 were ok
6 were catastrophic and fortunately, these were not the most expensive ones.

including fees, i had 65% the price i paid.

I had a better experience with Künker where I consigned several coins and had 80% the price i paid. 

I rarely sell coins but now I prefer to consign them to Vcoins/Ma-shop dealers at a price that suits me. It obviously takes longer to sell but there's less frustration.
 

[kirispupis]

4 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I have a guess. But of course it is just a subjective personal guess without any evidence. At Leu you can easily sell rarities. That's why they have the audience. If a live auction starts with lots of expensive, valuable coins, Leu has a lot of regular customers who are willing to pay high prices. But when it comes to the "normal" mid/low range coins - they may not have enough regular customers for them. And too little attention. And therefore too few bidders.

If you want to consign mid/low range coins - you may be better off with other auction houses?!

I think you're right, at least based on how I bid with Leu. The problem is, bidding on items I'm interested in can be intense. I've gone back and forth whether there's some funny business or whether the coins I pursue are in demand, because I definitely do lose, but when I win it's usually close to my max.

Therefore, I pick out only the coins that I feel I won't find elsewhere. These are all high priority coins that will have a major place in my collection. I know I'll pay dearly for them, so even if I wanted to add some of the more common but intriguing coins there would be no room. The auction is also so huge that I don't watch most of it. I only check when one of my targets is up.

This contrasts with other auction houses where I might pick up several "snacks" if I obtain my major target(s) at a fair price.

[John Conduitt]

Sorry to hear that. Although it is a useful experience and helpful to share. It's certainly helpful to me in working out how to sell my coins if I ever need to, thank you.

I've only ever sold coins I no longer want and aren't very high value. On eBay I've made a 25% profit overall after all sales and p&p costs. The number of coins I've sold or am likely to sell at a loss of any sort is 5%, with the biggest loss maybe 50% (which means selling for about 70% of what I bought it for).

So eBay works well for this. You have control of the listing, the photos, the type of sale and the price. But of course, it's more work and a lot slower (which is why you can make such a profit), and probably won't work for high value coins.

I'd hoped that if I can make a profit on coins I don't want, things can only get better with the rest of my collection. But anything over £500 isn't so easy to sell on eBay, and now I can see is more susceptible to this sort of disaster. Auction houses give better rates for big consignments but that's a lot of eggs in one basket. Maybe I will tell my son to use eBay, or spread the coins around the specialist auctions who can sell that type of coin, or even sell on consignment with the specialist dealers. Reduce the profit but reduce the risk.

Talking of auction prices, I thought the Spink auction of English coins today had some surprisingly low hammers. If I'd consigned I'd have made quite a loss. All should've been good for me as a buyer, except the 3 coins I wanted went way, way past what I thought were strong maximum bids. Spink then rubbed my nose in it by featuring 2 of them at the top of their results email, gloating over their success in getting such high prices.

[JayAg47]

1 hour ago, John Conduitt said:

So eBay works well for this. You have control of the listing, the photos, the type of sale and the price. But of course, it's more work and a lot slower (which is why you can make such a profit), and probably won't work for high value coins.

I concur, eBay is a much better place to sell your budget range coins, just build up some reputation by selling cheap coins for a while and then watch your coins sell like hot cakes during auctions or even when you list it for buy it now. Case in point watch the listing from sellers like Cody111111, Frascatius Ancient Coins, etc. Of course it may not be suitable for expensive ones, in which case it's more apt for professional auction houses. 

[Ancient Aussie]

14 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Unfortunately I have to say that I am very very very disappointed with the Leu auction. I can say that now. With Leu I had promised myself that I would get stable prices. I understand that with any auction there is a risk of getting less than you paid. You might only get 75% - maybe even just 50% of the purchase price. But sometimes only 25%? And not just one coin?

I know the prices on the market. And I know what money you can get for which coins at other auctions.

When I look at my prices, I could have given the coins to a less well-known auction house. Savoca, Solidus - even there you have to pay 100 to 150 euros for a good Commodus silver denarius at the auction.

Examples?

 

A very rare Gorndianus III Tetradrachm - hammered at Nomos for 800 CHF - hammered yesterday at Leu for 110 CHF:
https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/2578 

110 CHF! Normally a good and a little rare Tetradrachm are around 200 Euro. Every common 0815 Tetradrachm from Philips I / II you must pay 150-200 Euro. But 110 CHF for that? 

Same as my Commodus Caesar Denarius. Normally you pay for a Commodus as Caesar more than 150 Euro - if it was in a good condition. For example - I don't know any Naumann Auktion I get a good Commodus Caesar or Augustus Denarius lower than 100 Euro. But today - my Commodus sold for 70 CHF or 80 CHF... etc.

Leu Lot and Picture: https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/3765 
My Picture: https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-177-2a-commodus-victory/
Sold 80 CHF

No Info thats a coin from the famous Graham Collection (and I send all informations) - nothing. A Commodus Caesar Denarius from Graham 1972 with fantastic silver color toning and metallic shade - buyer for 350 USD - sold for 80 CHF. Great!

 

And this prices realized for so many of my coins... sold for rubbish prices. 

Sorry - but at every other Auctions I get more. If I know this before - it was better sell the coins for low price at eBay. 

 

ha ha ha in this seconds - thats so "funny": https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/3797 

45 CHF!!! 45 CHF !!!! It was this Commodus: https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-189-1a-commodus-securitas-orbis/ 

Yes - this was not a 150 Euro coin. But 45 CHF is nothing! Now deduct my commission that I have to pay - then it would have been better to give this coin away here. I would have enjoyed it more.

 

What a disaster of an auction. But I saw that the other consignor doesn't have it any other way. Some of the other coins from other consignors also go for junk prices. This auction was a disaster (as a consignor). Good for buyers.

I am sorry for your disappointment; the current market is very fickle I can't read; I think the way is the right place at the right time.

Tell me why did you not sell them on your Vcoins site?

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Ancient Aussie

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, Ancient Aussie said:

Tell me why did you not sell them on your Vcoins site?

 

I'm sorry things didn't go well for you. I was wondering the same thing about why you didn't sell on your own website. Or perhaps on the Facebook sales group -- the sister group to the one where you post your new coins sometimes. At least you can set your price in those venues even if it takes a while before it's met, and on Facebook you don't even have to pay anything to the platform.

Edited December 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[KenDorney]

Sorry this didn’t go well for you. Leu is the most notorious shill in the world. Maybe you should have communicated your minimums. 

[DonnaML]

11 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

Sorry this didn’t go well for you. Leu is the most notorious shill in the world. Maybe you should have communicated your minimums. 

But doesn't shill bidding result in higher rather than lower prices? Or do I understand it incorrectly?

[kirispupis]

7 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

But doesn't shill bidding result in higher rather than lower prices? Or do I understand it incorrectly?

It would be interesting to perform some study, but my suspicion is over the long run shill bidding lowers prices because people:

a) Don't bid on many more common coins because they fear shill bidding will drive it higher and
b) People lower their bids on average to prevent the shill bids from costing them too much

I do wonder from a legal standpoint whether these types of shill bids are legal. While the auction houses explicitly state in their terms that they may bid on their own listings, they don't mention that they're aware what the highest bid is when they do so.

[Prieure de Sion]

16 hours ago, Brennos said:

I had a better experience with Künker where I consigned several coins and had 80% the price i paid.

Any other auction house would have delivered better results. But yes, you are right - I have also had very good experiences with Künker - so far only when purchasing - but as always they are certainly good when it comes to sales.

 

16 hours ago, kirispupis said:

This contrasts with other auction houses where I might pick up several "snacks" if I obtain my major target(s) at a fair price.

But over 7000 coins are also far too many. What annoys me is that the consignor was not informed in advance that it was such a mega auction.

 

11 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

So eBay works well for this.

Sure, it's harder to sell expensive, good coins on Ebay that might be worth $1,000 or more. But seriously - just as an example - I would have gotten more than just 35 CHF for my two Gordianus coins even on Ebay. I still can't believe these prices. I sold so many coins under 50 CHF at this auction - I would have gotten more even on Ebay or Catawiki. Without problems!

 

7 hours ago, Ancient Aussie said:

I am sorry for your disappointment; the current market is very fickle I can't read; I think the way is the right place at the right time.

An auction is always a risk. Sometimes you only get 75%, sometimes only 50% of the purchase price. I was aware of that. And maybe one or two pieces are even worse. That wouldn't have been a problem.

But if a very large number of your coins are sold for only 25% of the value. And if 2x or 3x prices were achieved for the same types of coins at other auction houses 1-2 weeks earlier - then that's not "you have to expect that".

In my personal opinion, Leu overdid it with this auction with over 7000 coins to the detriment of the consignors. You shouldn't have made such a mass. There is more supply than there can be demand - every merchant can calculate that good prices cannot then be achieved.

And if you then put so many coins into the auction that you have to put even good lots (!) into a group lot! And if you then put the group lot together wildly AND only photograph one side. That annoys me. This is completely unnecessary. And not good to the consignor.

 

8 hours ago, Ancient Aussie said:

Tell me why did you not sell them on your Vcoins site?

 

THAT my friend is a very good question! Because for THESE prices, customers would have emptied my store!

I wanted to rearrange the inventory for new coins and sell them in one fell swoop. Fast. Uncomplicated.

Again. I expected a loss. And so that the loss won't be so great, I thought, give it to Leu. But I didn't expect to sell coins for 35-40 CHF. And certainly not Commodus coins for this price. Even if I had offered the coins 50% cheaper in the shop, I would have less loss now than after this auction.

Even now at the upcoming auctions of other auction houses coming up in December and January - the minimum bids are already higher for the same coins.

If the market situation was currently bad - everywhere - I would understand it. But why are the minimum bids at other auction houses in December / January already higher than the sales for the same coin types? There must be a reason for this?

Because as has already been said here:
1. Too many coins in one auction (oversupply)
2. Not all information for many coins
3. Too many coins, i.e. group lots and only photographed on one side
4. With this mass of coins, there is no live auction, so bidders often only entered a maximum price once and did not engage in bidding wars

 

6 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I'm sorry things didn't go well for you. I was wondering the same thing about why you didn't sell on your own website.

Yes Donna - I could beat myself for that. Because I thought I would only make the smallest loss with Leu. I would never have thought that the auction would end so disastrously.

 

6 hours ago, KenDorney said:

Sorry this didn’t go well for you. Leu is the most notorious shill in the world. Maybe you should have communicated your minimums. 

Leu received a VERY detailed list with all the data - including the purchase prices and my ideas. But if you put 300 euros of coins into a group lot or set the starting price at 25 CHF - I don't understand...

 

Other consignors have also written to me. Some of them also received catastrophic prices. They also expected a small or moderate loss. But they didn't expect that their coins were almost "given away." I'm not alone in this.

[Prieure de Sion]

Btw. In the end I have to blame myself too. I should have thought more carefully. Mid-range coins might have been better off elsewhere at an EU auction house. Without CHF, without possible customs costs - and rather in a small auction where the coins receive more attention. Or I should have been patient and sold it myself, even with small discounts. Then I would have had it in my own hands. I blame it all on myself.

What I "accuse" Leu of is that they absolutely had to have a mass auction - perhaps for the big profit? What I blame Leu for is that the consignor was not informed that it would be such a large auction with a lot of coins. It is logical that there are only a limited number of interested parties with a limited budget and this budget is then spread over 7000 coins. What I accuse Leu of is that because of this mass, they were forced to throw even good coins (which would have been sold individually in other auction houses) into groups - and didn't even bother (even though there were expensive coins!) on the front. and the back to photograph!

But it's no use. I should have thought better beforehand. I will now note it under "life experiences" that we all have in life - and learn from them. Hopefully.

It's no use continuing to cry now. The auction is over. At least I can write off the loss on my taxes at work.

But I don't want to be angry anymore. Even though I'll definitely do it again when I get the bill (and get a commission deducted from the sometimes ridiculous prices).

I'm now going to look at some nice coins from my storage and enjoy life 🙂

[SimonW]

Sorry to hear you made such a big loss @Prieure de Sion!

If you buy and sell at auction within a short period of time (let's say 2-3 years), you will usually make a loss of at least 40-50%+ on average (not taking into account market fluctuations). 30-40% is what the auction house takes (usually 20-25% buyer's commission and 10-15% consignor's commission). And 10% is the average bid step. Since your bid was the highest when you bought the coin, the second highest bidder was willing to pay 10% less. If the second highest bidder bid against you multiple times, it may be even more than just the 10%. If you're buying from stores or other fixed-price offers, you'll have to add the seller's mark-up on top of that.

Take your Gordian that sold for 35 CHF as an example:

If I buy it for 35 CHF at Leu, the final price will be 43 EUR, plus payment fees, shipping costs, VAT, possible customs fees, etc., making 60+ EUR. Quite a lot for an average Gordian. You can get them for 50 EUR and less in similar condition at MA-Shops/VCoins: https://www.ma-shops.com/stollhoff/item.php?id=5113&lang=de.

Edited December 13, 2023 by SimonW

[Prieure de Sion]

1 hour ago, SimonW said:

Sorry to hear you made such a big loss @Prieure de Sion!

If you buy and sell at auction within a short period of time (let's say 2-3 years), you will usually make a loss of at least 40-50%+ on average (not taking into account market fluctuations). 30-40% is what the auction house takes (usually 20-25% buyer's commission and 10-15% consignor's commission). And 10% is the average bid step. Since your bid was the highest when you bought the coin, the second highest bidder was willing to pay 10% less. If the second highest bidder bid against you multiple times, it may be even more than just the 10%. If you're buying from stores or other fixed-price offers, you'll have to add the seller's mark-up on top of that.

Take your Gordian that sold for 35 CHF as an example:

If I buy it for 35 CHF at Leu, the final price will be 43 EUR, plus payment fees, shipping costs, VAT, possible customs fees, etc., making 60+ EUR. Quite a lot for an average Gordian. You can get them for 50 EUR and less in similar condition at MA-Shops/VCoins: https://www.ma-shops.com/stollhoff/item.php?id=5113&lang=de.

Simon, thank you, but I know the auction prices as I have been buying and selling at auctions myself for two years now. And in recent weeks and months there have not been many coins in good condition for less than 50 euros (I am always looking for cheap coins for my store). And at any other auction I would have gotten much more - guaranteed. 

And it's not like it's one, two or three coins. Roughly speaking, there are about 3/4 (I think even more) of my coins that only got about 25% of the market price. For example, I've sold coins worth CHF 800 for CHF 110 at auction - that's 1/8 of the price! 
 
I sell pretty well in my store I would say - meaning I know the prices. And if I couldn't estimate the prices correctly, I wouldn't be able to sell so successfully.
 
But it is also logical that this auction is not so successful as a seller if the same coin is offered 10 times... or 7000 coins are sold in one go. Or if more valuable coins are placed in groups and you don't even bother to photograph both sides. 
 
Once again. Losses are always possible and rather normal. You lose 25%, you may also lose 50% and maybe even 75% for one or two coins .... But if almost all your coins go out 75% under value, then something is wrong. 
 
But again, it's over now anyway. I have learned that a big name is not always a guarantee for good prices and sometimes you are better off with smaller houses.

[kirispupis]

7 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

But over 7000 coins are also far too many. What annoys me is that the consignor was not informed in advance that it was such a mega auction.

In fairness to Leu, all of their auctions are large. It's something they're well-known for. Lots of buyers pay attention to their auctions because the odds there's something interesting are high.

7 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Sure, it's harder to sell expensive, good coins on Ebay that might be worth $1,000 or more. But seriously - just as an example - I would have gotten more than just 35 CHF for my two Gordianus coins even on Ebay. I still can't believe these prices. I sold so many coins under 50 CHF at this auction - I would have gotten more even on Ebay or Catawiki. Without problems!

I'm not so sure. Granted, I'm not familiar with these coins, but I own two nice Gordianus coins that I paid 22 and 28 Euros for (I didn't think I'd win both). Unless the issue is interesting, they're not going high. Sadly, your coins were probably bought by some other store who will list them higher.

7 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

THAT my friend is a very good question! Because for THESE prices, customers would have emptied my store!

To be honest, and please accept this with constructive criticism, I go crazy for the stores who commonly put low-end coins at crazy prices. For example, I "tick off" Roman emperors. I don't need a top-end example of Quintillus and if I see something decent for a killer price, I'm going to grab it. The majority of my coins this year were purchased from two well-known bargain sellers. What's more, once in awhile I'll spring for one of their more expensive coins because I check them so often for the cheap stuff that I'll see something nice and grab it. 

Therefore, if you want more eyes on your VCoins store, try putting a few intriguing coins at a price where you make only a little profit.

That being said, this thread has taught me something. In the case of my untimely demise, my wife and kids are concerned how they will sell my coins. In the past I told them to contact Leu, but I now think a VCoins seller may be more appropriate unless they need the money quickly.

[DonnaML]

The Leu auction back in July of this year was also more than 7,000 lots, and I think that had the effect of depressing prices as well. I recall reading that consignors were generally disappointed. I don't know if these gigantic auctions are something new for Leu, but I really don't understand why they do things that way instead of holding smaller auctions more frequently, as other auction houses do. I don't see how it benefits Leu financially to have lower prices. And Leu was already well-known for taking an unusually long time to ship lots even from smaller auctions, so now buyers will be even more frustrated with the delays. 

All I can say is that looking back to earlier this year when I was deciding whether to consign my Vespasian aureus with the 1910 pedigree to CNG or to Leu, I'm very glad in retrospect that I chose CNG over Leu. My coin was put in the CNG feature auction in September -- with an additional, even earlier, 1908 pedigree that CNG discovered -- whereas with Leu it would probably have ended up in the July auction with > 7,000 other lots. Yes, I ended up with a loss of about 15% from what I had paid at retail two years earlier -- I received $6,000 net of the 5% consignor's commission, compared to the approximately $7,000 discounted retail price I paid -- but despite being a bit disappointed, I think that was still a fairly reasonable return given that the buyer actually paid CNG more than my retail price counting the buyer's fee, that the coin was ex-jewelry with some edge cuts, and that the coin had previously sold at retail for only around $4,000 a few years before I bought it (albeit with no pedigree at all). I have a feeling that if I had consigned to Leu instead, there's a good chance that my loss would have been more than the 15% it was.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[Prieure de Sion]

2 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

In fairness to Leu, all of their auctions are large. It's something they're well-known for. Lots of buyers pay attention to their auctions because the odds there's something interesting are high.

I have to admit that it never really occurred to me - that the auctions are so big.
 
 

3 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I'm not so sure. Granted, I'm not familiar with these coins, but I own two nice Gordianus coins that I paid 22 and 28 Euros for (I didn't think I'd win both). Unless the issue is interesting, they're not going high. Sadly, your coins were probably bought by some other store who will list them higher.

The Gordianus were just an example. I bought a lot of Commodus together. And I have never gotten a piece of Commodus silver for less than 100 euros at auction (of good quality). And if a Commodus is of very good quality, you will quickly have to pay €150 or more like €200-300 at an auction. And now some of my Commodus were sold for 50-80€? I'm talking about the good Commodus!

https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-177-2a-commodus-victory/

That’s a not common Commodus Caesar Denarius from a reputable Collection. Very good young Commodus Caesar Denarius you never get in a auction under 100€. Normally minimum 150€, more 200€. And if it was a R1 type like this, in this condition and from a pedigree like this… you can think a minimum of 150-200€. I paid - if I remember - 350 USD for this Commodus. And now I get 80 CHF. That’s a trash price for this coin. Ask a Commodus Collector. 80 CHF is a joke for this coin and type. 

And krispus, I have 800 CHF coins give to Leu, who was sold for 110 CHF. That was 1/8 … not 25%, not 50% … not 75% lost! 
 
 

 

[Prieure de Sion]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

The Leu auction back in July of this year was also more than 7,000 lots, and I think that had the effect of depressing prices as well. I recall reading that consignors were generally disappointed. I don't know if these gigantic auctions are something new for Leu, but I really don't understand why they now do things that way instead of holding smaller auctions more frequently, as other auction houses do. I don't see how it benefits Leu financially to have lower prices. And Leu was already well-known for taking an unusually long time to ship lots even from smaller auctions, so now buyers will be even more frustrated with the delays. 

Maybe they don't care? At 7000 coins you have a big gain from mass. Does it no longer matter whether the consignors really benefit from this? Do the small consignors matter? Leu certainly earns a lot of money and reputation from the expensive live auctions. Maybe these web auctions are just mass-produced goods and a mass auction?

I already wrote to Leu 2 days ago that I was very disappointed. But haven't received an answer yet. No answer at all, not even a brief reassurance.

 

10 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

All I can say is that looking back to earlier this year when I was deciding whether to consign my Vespasian aureus with the 1910 pedigree to CNG or to Leu, I'm very glad in retrospect that I chose CNG over Leu. My coin was put the CNG feature auction in September -- with an additional, even earlier, 1908 pedigree that CNG discovered -- whereas with Leu it would probably have ended up in the July auction with > 7,000 other lots. Yes, I ended up with a loss of about 15% from what I had paid at retail two years earlier -- I received $6,000 net of the 5% consignor's commission, compared to the approximately $7,000 discounted retail price I paid -- but despite being a bit disappointed, I think that was still a fairly reasonable return given that the buyer actually paid CNG more than my retail price counting the buyer's fee, that the coin was ex-jewelry with some edge cuts, and that the coin had previously sold at retail for only around $4,000 a few years before I bought it. I have a feeling that if I had consigned to Leu instead, there's a good chance that my loss would have been more than the 15% it was.

As already written, I was aware that losses of 25% are also possible. I also expected to lose maybe 50% on individual coins! But that the majority (!) of my coins - the majority! - up to 75% loses value, I would never have thought that!

Yes, and as you say. I'm disappointed that they often didn't bother! But simply, for example, a group of coins - that don't even fit together for a collector! - just threw them together and didn't take a photo of both sides!

CNG also has a mid-range auction today, but they photographed their group lots from both sides!

But you probably can't bother if you have to sell 7000 coins!

[Hesiod]

8 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

CNG also has a mid-range auction today, but they photographed their group lots from both sides!

Leu has never photographed the reverses and tends to do "piled up" photos. CNG doesn't photograph all coins for larger group lots. They're pretty consistent in this

[kirispupis]

10 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Yes, and as you say. I'm disappointed that they often didn't bother! But simply, for example, a group of coins - that don't even fit together for a collector! - just threw them together and didn't take a photo of both sides!

I too would be very pissed off if an auction house grouped my coins without my approval. If my coins were ever put up at auction, this would be a major concern since many of my cities might be grouped together or types of the city may be. This would completely miss the fact that some of these types are extremely rare and should be presented separately to collectors. Granted, I won't care at that point, but it would reduce what my kids receive.

[Curtisimo]

I am so sorry to read about your bad experience @Prieure de Sion.

I must admit I am a bit surprised to hear about crazy bargains at Leu. I got steamrolled on all of my targets in the auction.

I think the stratospheric hammers Leu was experiencing in 2021-2022 caused a lot of people to consign with them all at once, thus the huge sales. Leu was the poster child for coinflation during the pandemic. Now that the buying mania appears to be sputtering out this dynamic might be putting downward pressure on some of the segments of the market that went up the most.

In my experience, prices are coming down across the board. I have seen more great deals in the last few months than I’ve had money to take advantage of them.

[Prieure de Sion]

In any case, thank you for reading my frustration. He had to get out somehow, no one in the family understands that.

but well. I think I'll leave it at that. It just upsets me every time I think about it. And I'm most upset with myself because I could have guessed it in advance.

But I'll leave it at that for now and will only be annoyed again at the end when it comes to the billing. I'll let it go now 🙂
 

Thanks to all for your understanding and nice words. 

[Limes]

Too bad the coins sold for far below what you were hoping for. I've sold a dozen something coins of somewhat lesser quality, via various venues. Overall, it's a loss, not because of the prices realized, but because of the fees, shipping, taxes and so on. I think it's not that easy to compensate for those costs, unless you happen to have a couple of eid-mar denarii in your stock for over three decades... C'est la vie. The other way around is also at play though, where retailers add dozens percentages to the coins added to their stock via auctions, private sellings, and so on. Sometimes even more than 100%. It only takes one buyer who did not do his research. The other way around is that sometimes buyers get lucky and score coins cheaply. 

Personally, I'll never use Leu as a selling venue. It does not match my coins. I mean, I have mediocre coins, sometimes slightly better than that. But they will be completely lost between the dozes of similar coins, or even the exact same types. Also, from a EU to a non-EU country (i.e.; Swiss is not part of the Union, but part of the continent) seems like a hassle dealing with a different currency, taxes, banking costs and so on. So I always use sellers based in the EU. It also helps to know the venue, having bought coins there and having a feeling with their behaviour, the coins they generally offer, the prices realized. So that the coins I sell via that venue stand out, get good descriptions, and I can make a good estimation of my loss, so to minimize it. 

51 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

That being said, this thread has taught me something. In the case of my untimely demise, my wife and kids are concerned how they will sell my coins. In the past I told them to contact Leu, but I now think a VCoins seller may be more appropriate unless they need the money quickly.

This is a good point. I've already made a document for my wife and kids, with a venue and instructions. I've deliberately chosen a venue that is good, helpful, but also not on the other side of the planet but within normal travelling distance. No hassle with shipping, taxes, currencies, and so on. It's not about maximizing a profit for them, I mean, my coins are the worst investment ever, but to make it easy for them if they chose to sell the collection. 

[panzerman]

I am sorry about your auction results. As a "bidder" with limited funds/ I look for high quality coins and scour auctions on sixbid looking for targets to bid on. Things that interest me...

Seeing 6 AV Shapur I AV Dinars (all same high quality/ this tells me with six on offer/ I have a good chance to win one for resonable price. My pick was one with best eye appeal + no tiny flaws. I ended up winning it for 3K/ way better then most go for.

Bidding on great coins/ lesser known auction houses/ case in point/ Golden Eagle Auctions/ Hungary offered a FDC AV Tremissis Honorius/ my proxybid of 900 E won coin. A really good result for me.

Checking "unsolds" many auction houses provide these after market lists. Last week/ Teutoburger offered a "Unique" AV Aureus Gallienus (Joint Reign/ Valerian) in EF-MS for 7200 E/ again a dynamite deal for one of a kind aureus!

However Leu is a premier auction house and normally has great results for consignees!

Slabbed vs raw/ again NA bidders go gaga for TPG coins/ so if Stacks sell a MS-65 hammered James I AV Unite it will go for 10K+

Same coin in Morton & Eden auction would be graded as GEF and sell for half......

 

There are many ricks of the trade when it comes to selling/ bidding/

[El Cazador]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:24 AM, Prieure de Sion said:

Unfortunately I have to say that I am very very very disappointed with the Leu auction. I can say that now. With Leu I had promised myself that I would get stable prices. I understand that with any auction there is a risk of getting less than you paid. You might only get 75% - maybe even just 50% of the purchase price. But sometimes only 25%? And not just one coin?

I know the prices on the market. And I know what money you can get for which coins at other auctions.

When I look at my prices, I could have given the coins to a less well-known auction house. Savoca, Solidus - even there you have to pay 100 to 150 euros for a good Commodus silver denarius at the auction.

Examples?

 

A very rare Gorndianus III Tetradrachm - hammered at Nomos for 800 CHF - hammered yesterday at Leu for 110 CHF:
https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/2578 

110 CHF! Normally a good and a little rare Tetradrachm are around 200 Euro. Every common 0815 Tetradrachm from Philips I / II you must pay 150-200 Euro. But 110 CHF for that? 

Same as my Commodus Caesar Denarius. Normally you pay for a Commodus as Caesar more than 150 Euro - if it was in a good condition. For example - I don't know any Naumann Auktion I get a good Commodus Caesar or Augustus Denarius lower than 100 Euro. But today - my Commodus sold for 70 CHF or 80 CHF... etc.

Leu Lot and Picture: https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/3765 
My Picture: https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-177-2a-commodus-victory/
Sold 80 CHF

No Info thats a coin from the famous Graham Collection (and I send all informations) - nothing. A Commodus Caesar Denarius from Graham 1972 with fantastic silver color toning and metallic shade - buyer for 350 USD - sold for 80 CHF. Great!

 

And this prices realized for so many of my coins... sold for rubbish prices. 

Sorry - but at every other Auctions I get more. If I know this before - it was better sell the coins for low price at eBay. 

 

ha ha ha in this seconds - thats so "funny": https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/46/3797 

45 CHF!!! 45 CHF !!!! It was this Commodus: https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-189-1a-commodus-securitas-orbis/ 

Yes - this was not a 150 Euro coin. But 45 CHF is nothing! Now deduct my commission that I have to pay - then it would have been better to give this coin away here. I would have enjoyed it more.

 

What a disaster of an auction. But I saw that the other consignor doesn't have it any other way. Some of the other coins from other consignors also go for junk prices. This auction was a disaster (as a consignor). Good for buyers.

I actually agree with auction house prices, the coins u were selling were not particularly rare, or desirable. So it seems like those were fair market prices for common coins

[Salomons Cat]

14 hours ago, El Cazador said:

I actually agree with auction house prices, the coins u were selling were not particularly rare, or desirable. So it seems like those were fair market prices for common coins

I mean, everyone can have a personal opinion. But some of these pieces were unique… Or at least without any other documented specimen. Prices for such pieces mainly depend on luck and are not predictable.
It’s completely ok if @Prieure de Sion is not happy with the results.