Leu Web Auction 28 - 9/14 Dec: some of my coins from my Collection are offered

[Tejas]

I’m sorry to hear about this auction outcome. I think most of the reasons for this outcome have been mentioned already. The market has a limited absorption capacity. If large numbers of (expensive) coins come to the market in one go, it is clear that average prices will have to go down and it is especially the average coins (common types in average or normal condition) that will be hit hardest. Rare coins (i.e. rare types, but especially rare conditions even in common types) will usually fare best.

Clearly, nobody wants to incur big monetary losses. However, I think every collector should be aware that he is not likely to make money with his collection. The mere fact that auction houses and coin dealers exist is prove that collectors are the ones who lose (in monetary terms). Hence, collectors should derive their return from coins in the form of the immaterial joy of collecting, hunting, studying and discussing coins. I know that is no consolation.

 

[Salomons Cat]

28 minutes ago, Tejas said:

Clearly, nobody wants to incur big monetary losses. However, I think every collector should be aware that he is not likely to make money with his collection. The mere fact that auction houses and coin dealers exist is prove that collectors are the ones who lose (in monetary terms). Hence, collectors should derive their return from coins in the form of the immaterial joy of collecting, hunting, studying and discussing coins. I know that is no consolation.

This is a bit off topic, but…
I like my coins too much. I think that they’re really special. As a general rule, I only buy a coin if it’s historically interesting, the price seems good and I don’t find a better specimen on acsearch. That’s why I wouldn’t sell them, not even for more than I have paid 😜

I just couldn’t replace most of my coins, doesn’t matter how much money I would get. If specimens in similar condition are not on the market I cannot buy them.

[Prieure de Sion]

16 hours ago, El Cazador said:

I actually agree with auction house prices, the coins u were selling were not particularly rare, or desirable. So it seems like those were fair market prices for common coins

And thats the problem - why common? And fair prices? For Buyers yes, for me as seller? No.

Let me explain.

@Salomons Cat buyed some coins from my shop. We already know each other somewhat. So I know that he was looking for a Commodus coin for a long time. He looked everywhere, at auctions, at dealers. He ended up buying one or two Commodus from me. Through his search, he knows the Commodus prices quite well - because he has been watching the prices for a long time. He will confirm to you that 80 CHF for this Commodus Caesar is not only at the lower limit - it is actually well below the limit. I think if I had offered him this Commodus from the Graham Collection for 80 CHF in the summer - he would have taken it straight away and been happy about this incredibly great price.

https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-177-2a-commodus-victory/ 

And THAT is the problem with this.

1. The mass of 7000 coins
2. The omission of information
3. Sometimes not ideal images
4. Also put valuable coins in group lots and only photograph one side

Point 1 is entirely my fault! I should have known this and I'm the only idiot here! It was up to me to get the right information.

But the fact that information was left out, that sometimes non-ideal pictures were taken, that coins were grouped into large, poorly put together groups without asking (!) (and only one side was reproduced) - that is the responsibility of the auction house - which is actually where you are at must trust points.

Point 2 - to the linked Commodus coin above. It comes from the well-known Graham Collection. This information was available! Why wasn't it used? This is not a common coin - this is an R1 Commodus Caesar Denarius from a reputable, well-known collection. But none of this appears in the sales text. And yes - then a coin like this for 80 CHF gets lost in the crowd.

Next Commodus: https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-180-1a-commodus-roma/ 

This Commodus is not in the RIC. It is an extremely rare variant. This variant has been auctioned once in the last 22 years. And exactly THAT one coin! And? No information about this in the sales text. Of course, she then gets lost in the crowd as an ordinary Commodus Caesar. And again - I have provided all the information.

And we're not talking about individual cases here, these are just individual examples. I still have a rare tetradrachm that I bought at auction this year for 800 CHF. I don't expect any profit. 500 CHF would have been ok - if everything had turned out badly, 300 CHF would have been ok too. But 110 CHF! Do you understand? 1/8 of the value! No - that is not a fair price and it is not a normal market price either.

Point 3 - images.

Take this: https://leunumismatik.com/source/images/auction/46/06429q00.jpg 
And take this: https://images.vcoins.com/product_image/315/Z/Zq9meDM7Eo4F5CdTtL3nzpX8P6ipcQ.jpg 

What coin you like more to buy?

Point 4 - Groups. No one asked me if it was okay to put coins in a group lot. And if you do this - why is it so bad? Gordianus silver + Gordianus Province bronze + Commodus silver + Commodus Province bronze + Autonomous Province bronze. Who would buy such a collection with Gordianus and Commodus?

And why are special coins being thrown in there again without comment? A unique provincial bronze that is also a real Plate Coin at RPC? A provincial coin mentioned in a Turkish publication by Turkish scientists and identified as a new type? Collectors of provincial bronzes like that sort of thing. But they don't know this information from the description. You don't even see the front and back.

Look in the group lot - you will see two Commodus Denarius heads and a Gordianus head. But which back types are they? Are they in good condition? Are they rare?

 

Summarized. No, I also submitted many special coins. But these details, although known, have not been published. And no - these auction are not normal market prices. I bought most of the pieces myself this year. And I always made sure that I bought well and cheaply - because the coins were also intended for the shop. And I'm telling you now - as of today - I get 25% of the value. That's a 75% loss. And no - that's not normal. I didn't expect to win! I even expected a 50% loss if things were really bad. But 75% - that's tough.

But let's be honest - it shouldn't surprise you. With 7000 pieces, a lot of coins are lost. Who is surprised? And if there is an offer of a coin type 10x - it is clear that the interested parties are divided. If it feels like a Denarius of the Brutus / Spinther Duo is offered 10x - then you won't get a high price for it anymore. It's logical.

But now we're going around in circles again. It cannot be changed. The only thing that upsets me is that the auction was so big (it's my own fault, I should have known) - that information wasn't often provided - that some of the pictures weren't good - and that coins were put into groups without asking (!). With a little more commitment, I as a consignor could have only made a loss of around 50% or just less. This would have been a bit annoying - but that's something to be expected. With a 75% loss - that's hardcore.

The only consolation is - I will have to pay less taxes for my business this year. If I had to share the amount privately, I would cry.

 

But let's close here the discussion - auction is today over - and can't be returned. 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Prieure de Sion]

So I have received my Commission calculation - and would like to write a few final words. 

I am very dissatisfied with the Leu auction as a consignor. I am not only referring to the prices realised - but rather to the manner - as well as the service. 
 
I would like to emphasise one thing in advance! I realise and am fully aware that it is possible to make heavy losses at an auction! But you can do everything you can to do your job properly and try to get the best prices. If you have done your job well - and still get bad prices - then that's just the way it is. Then there's nothing you can do. Bad luck. But then you can say - I did everything well and tried everything - but it just didn't work out. But I tried. But I don't have the feeling at LEU that they tried everything. And THAT is the real thing that really annoys me.

I have the feeling (my subjective opinion) that Leu has put its own profit before the well-being of its customers (suppliers). An auction house should actually make sure that it does justice to its customers (consignors). I think - everyone who passes items on to an auction house does so in the confidence that the auction house is acting in their interests. That's what you trust when you consign an item.

1. The first mistake in my opinion was the sheer amount of coins. There were types of coins that felt like there were 10 of them at the same time. For example - there were 9 Spinther / Brutus coins in the auction at the same time. It is logical that the potential buyers are divided among 9 coins - and no high prices can be achieved. This has already been mentioned here by other users - more coin offers do not automatically mean more buyers and more budget of the buyers. On the contrary - the same number of buyers and budgets are now divided even more. As an auction house, I have to make sure that there is a reasonable supply for my consignors. I can't take in 10 coins of the same type - I'm acting completely against the consignors. Or I simply don't care as an auction house what happens.

2. This large number of coins certainly also meant that it was not possible to write down all the details of each coin. This is the next point that annoys me. I have given LEU all the information in tabular form. If it was a special pedigree or if a coin is a variant that is not listed in the standard references. All sales demanding. But although I had even provided this information - it was not simply used.So I had some coins with excellent pedigree - not mentioned - or coins with variants that were not in standard works or only one specimen was refused in the last 20 years. Nothing. And so many coins were simply lost as normal coins in this great mass. Apart from the sometimes poor images. And such things simply cause an avoidable loss.

3. But the best example of “we don’t care” was the group lot. Apparently they had so many coins that the limit for individual coins was reached and some coins were put into a group lot. That happens - but not like that!

a) You put province and imperial coins in a bag
b) You put a mix of Commodus and Gordianus coins into this bag (who buys something like that?)
c) You only photograph one side - and then also the portrait side, so that no one can tell which (rare?) type it is!
d) You do NOT ask the consignor whether this is okay!
 
And so 16 individual coins were put into a group lot without being asked and offered!
 
And in this group lot there was a single specimen that was identified in the Turkish scientific published pages as a new type and unique piece and another unique provincial bronze (worth around 200 euros)! There are also Commodus pieces of silver with a great portrait and many other coins - but no one knows this. Because there is no written information about what is contained in this group lot - and only one face was photographed! By the way, I received about 20 CHF per coin from this group lot - that's a JOKE for these coins in the lot. Congratulations to the buyer.

 

Again - you must always be aware that you can make losses in an auction. But I trust the auction house to do their job well! If the auction house does a good job in preparation - and then the prices are still poor - then it's just bad luck!

But if you as an auction house (perhaps there were too many coins that you really wanted to sell) leave out important details and descriptions (even though you know them) - if you accept and offer too many coins of one type and thus create an oversupply - If you as an auction house put coins in a group lot because of the quantity, without asking, mixes that make no sense, without text information about the group lot and only show one side - THEN you haven't done a good job for your customers (consignors).

By the way, the consequence of this for me was that I made 2/3 losses. I got around 30% of what I was worth. And this at a time when prices are actually high. But it was - this is my opinion - a very poorly organized and executed auction - for consignors! Of course a loss was possible - but what bothers me is that a certain amount of the loss could have been avoided.

They - this is my personal impression - did not focus on the well-being of the customers (consignors), but rather it was primarily about selling a lot of coins - no matter how. I also received a few emails / PMs from other consignors - who were also very dissatisfied.

 

And finally - my personal impression is also reinforced by the fact that I expressed my criticism of Leu by email - but have not received a response to this to date. That's not entirely true - I received an answer in the form of a PDF with an overview of the prices achieved and the commission deducted. But they didn't respond to my criticism and haven't responded to this day - but they also didn't ask me about the group lot and put some of my coins in there without asking. I think I'll get the money transferred and hear nothing further.

My recommendation - look for a smaller auction house that you trust and that your coins will receive a worthy presentation in a smaller setting (mass of offer)!

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

45 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

So I have received my Commission calculation - and would like to write a few final words. 

I am very dissatisfied with the Leu auction as a consignor. I am not only referring to the prices realised - but rather to the manner - as well as the service. 
 
I would like to emphasise one thing in advance! I realise and am fully aware that it is possible to make heavy losses at an auction! But you can do everything you can to do your job properly and try to get the best prices. If you have done your job well - and still get bad prices - then that's just the way it is. Then there's nothing you can do. Bad luck. But then you can say - I did everything well and tried everything - but it just didn't work out. But I tried. But I don't have the feeling at LEU that they tried everything. And THAT is the real thing that really annoys me.

I have the feeling (my subjective opinion) that Leu has put its own profit before the well-being of its customers (suppliers). An auction house should actually make sure that it does justice to its customers (consignors). I think - everyone who passes items on to an auction house does so in the confidence that the auction house is acting in their interests. That's what you trust when you consign an item.

1. The first mistake in my opinion was the sheer amount of coins. There were types of coins that felt like there were 10 of them at the same time. For example - there were 9 Spinther / Brutus coins in the auction at the same time. It is logical that the potential buyers are divided among 9 coins - and no high prices can be achieved. This has already been mentioned here by other users - more coin offers do not automatically mean more buyers and more budget of the buyers. On the contrary - the same number of buyers and budgets are now divided even more. As an auction house, I have to make sure that there is a reasonable supply for my consignors. I can't take in 10 coins of the same type - I'm acting completely against the consignors. Or I simply don't care as an auction house what happens.

2. This large number of coins certainly also meant that it was not possible to write down all the details of each coin. This is the next point that annoys me. I have given LEU all the information in tabular form. If it was a special pedigree or if a coin is a variant that is not listed in the standard references. All sales demanding. But although I had even provided this information - it was not simply used.So I had some coins with excellent pedigree - not mentioned - or coins with variants that were not in standard works or only one specimen was refused in the last 20 years. Nothing. And so many coins were simply lost as normal coins in this great mass. Apart from the sometimes poor images. And such things simply cause an avoidable loss.

3. But the best example of “we don’t care” was the group lot. Apparently they had so many coins that the limit for individual coins was reached and some coins were put into a group lot. That happens - but not like that!

a) You put province and imperial coins in a bag
b) You put a mix of Commodus and Gordianus coins into this bag (who buys something like that?)
c) You only photograph one side - and then also the portrait side, so that no one can tell which (rare?) type it is!
d) You do NOT ask the consignor whether this is okay!
 
And so 16 individual coins were put into a group lot without being asked and offered!
 
And in this group lot there was a single specimen that was identified in the Turkish scientific published pages as a new type and unique piece and another unique provincial bronze (worth around 200 euros)! There are also Commodus pieces of silver with a great portrait and many other coins - but no one knows this. Because there is no written information about what is contained in this group lot - and only one face was photographed! By the way, I received about 20 CHF per coin from this group lot - that's a JOKE for these coins in the lot. Congratulations to the buyer.

 

Again - you must always be aware that you can make losses in an auction. But I trust the auction house to do their job well! If the auction house does a good job in preparation - and then the prices are still poor - then it's just bad luck!

But if you as an auction house (perhaps there were too many coins that you really wanted to sell) leave out important details and descriptions (even though you know them) - if you accept and offer too many coins of one type and thus create an oversupply - If you as an auction house put coins in a group lot because of the quantity, without asking, mixes that make no sense, without text information about the group lot and only show one side - THEN you haven't done a good job for your customers (consignors).

By the way, the consequence of this for me was that I made 2/3 losses. I got around 30% of what I was worth. And this at a time when prices are actually high. But it was - this is my opinion - a very poorly organized and executed auction - for consignors! Of course a loss was possible - but what bothers me is that a certain amount of the loss could have been avoided.

They - this is my personal impression - did not focus on the well-being of the customers (consignors), but rather it was primarily about selling a lot of coins - no matter how. I also received a few emails / PMs from other consignors - who were also very dissatisfied.

 

And finally - my personal impression is also reinforced by the fact that I expressed my criticism of Leu by email - but have not received a response to this to date. That's not entirely true - I received an answer in the form of a PDF with an overview of the prices achieved and the commission deducted. But they didn't respond to my criticism and haven't responded to this day - but they also didn't ask me about the group lot and put some of my coins in there without asking. I think I'll get the money transferred and hear nothing further.

My recommendation - look for a smaller auction house that you trust and that your coins will receive a worthy presentation in a smaller setting (mass of offer)!

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear this and it really has been an ongoing saga.

They did send out the realized prices and "success" blurb about the auction and as I recall the realization was about six times above opening bid for all of the lots. Which seemingly would offer good value to consignors but obviously not. 7,000 coins was probably just too many which kind of leads to the argument you make above. I followed along during the Byzantine gold and electrum offerings and there were like 15 nomismata of Constantine X one after the other. It seems like that would not give the consignors top dollar and bidding fatigue would lead to some steals for buyers. Good for Leu but not for sellers

 

[Heliodromus]

Sorry to hear about this very disappointing auction outcome, but thanks for sharing it - I'm sure many of us have learned something from it.

 

[ajax]

5 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

So I have received my Commission calculation - and would like to write a few final words. 

I am very dissatisfied with the Leu auction as a consignor. I am not only referring to the prices realised - but rather to the manner - as well as the service. 
 
I would like to emphasise one thing in advance! I realise and am fully aware that it is possible to make heavy losses at an auction! But you can do everything you can to do your job properly and try to get the best prices. If you have done your job well - and still get bad prices - then that's just the way it is. Then there's nothing you can do. Bad luck. But then you can say - I did everything well and tried everything - but it just didn't work out. But I tried. But I don't have the feeling at LEU that they tried everything. And THAT is the real thing that really annoys me.

I have the feeling (my subjective opinion) that Leu has put its own profit before the well-being of its customers (suppliers). An auction house should actually make sure that it does justice to its customers (consignors). I think - everyone who passes items on to an auction house does so in the confidence that the auction house is acting in their interests. That's what you trust when you consign an item.

1. The first mistake in my opinion was the sheer amount of coins. There were types of coins that felt like there were 10 of them at the same time. For example - there were 9 Spinther / Brutus coins in the auction at the same time. It is logical that the potential buyers are divided among 9 coins - and no high prices can be achieved. This has already been mentioned here by other users - more coin offers do not automatically mean more buyers and more budget of the buyers. On the contrary - the same number of buyers and budgets are now divided even more. As an auction house, I have to make sure that there is a reasonable supply for my consignors. I can't take in 10 coins of the same type - I'm acting completely against the consignors. Or I simply don't care as an auction house what happens.

2. This large number of coins certainly also meant that it was not possible to write down all the details of each coin. This is the next point that annoys me. I have given LEU all the information in tabular form. If it was a special pedigree or if a coin is a variant that is not listed in the standard references. All sales demanding. But although I had even provided this information - it was not simply used.So I had some coins with excellent pedigree - not mentioned - or coins with variants that were not in standard works or only one specimen was refused in the last 20 years. Nothing. And so many coins were simply lost as normal coins in this great mass. Apart from the sometimes poor images. And such things simply cause an avoidable loss.

3. But the best example of “we don’t care” was the group lot. Apparently they had so many coins that the limit for individual coins was reached and some coins were put into a group lot. That happens - but not like that!

a) You put province and imperial coins in a bag
b) You put a mix of Commodus and Gordianus coins into this bag (who buys something like that?)
c) You only photograph one side - and then also the portrait side, so that no one can tell which (rare?) type it is!
d) You do NOT ask the consignor whether this is okay!
 
And so 16 individual coins were put into a group lot without being asked and offered!
 
And in this group lot there was a single specimen that was identified in the Turkish scientific published pages as a new type and unique piece and another unique provincial bronze (worth around 200 euros)! There are also Commodus pieces of silver with a great portrait and many other coins - but no one knows this. Because there is no written information about what is contained in this group lot - and only one face was photographed! By the way, I received about 20 CHF per coin from this group lot - that's a JOKE for these coins in the lot. Congratulations to the buyer.

 

Again - you must always be aware that you can make losses in an auction. But I trust the auction house to do their job well! If the auction house does a good job in preparation - and then the prices are still poor - then it's just bad luck!

But if you as an auction house (perhaps there were too many coins that you really wanted to sell) leave out important details and descriptions (even though you know them) - if you accept and offer too many coins of one type and thus create an oversupply - If you as an auction house put coins in a group lot because of the quantity, without asking, mixes that make no sense, without text information about the group lot and only show one side - THEN you haven't done a good job for your customers (consignors).

By the way, the consequence of this for me was that I made 2/3 losses. I got around 30% of what I was worth. And this at a time when prices are actually high. But it was - this is my opinion - a very poorly organized and executed auction - for consignors! Of course a loss was possible - but what bothers me is that a certain amount of the loss could have been avoided.

They - this is my personal impression - did not focus on the well-being of the customers (consignors), but rather it was primarily about selling a lot of coins - no matter how. I also received a few emails / PMs from other consignors - who were also very dissatisfied.

 

And finally - my personal impression is also reinforced by the fact that I expressed my criticism of Leu by email - but have not received a response to this to date. That's not entirely true - I received an answer in the form of a PDF with an overview of the prices achieved and the commission deducted. But they didn't respond to my criticism and haven't responded to this day - but they also didn't ask me about the group lot and put some of my coins in there without asking. I think I'll get the money transferred and hear nothing further.

My recommendation - look for a smaller auction house that you trust and that your coins will receive a worthy presentation in a smaller setting (mass of offer)!

 

 

 

 

 

There are 2 reasons your consignment did not do well:

1.  You won the coins in auctions and tried to flip them after short time. Do you think the underbidders whom you blocked from getting the coins they wanted, would happily bid again to give you flipping profit?

2. You tried to flip in an auction where the auctioneers themselves are also flipping and consigning. 

If you can't realise how the reasons above affected your consignments, you should better quit the flipping business. 

[El Cazador]

11 minutes ago, ajax said:

 

There are 2 reasons your consignment did not do well:

1.  You won the coins in auctions and tried to flip them after short time. Do you think the underbidders whom you blocked from getting the coins they wanted, would happily bid again to give you flipping profit?

2. You tried to flip in an auction where the auctioneers themselves are also flipping and consigning. 

If you can't realise how the reasons above affected your consignments, you should better quit the flipping business. 

Very, very true statement 

[Prieure de Sion]

7 minutes ago, ajax said:

There are 2 reasons your consignment did not do well:

1.  You won the coins in auctions and tried to flip them after short time. Do you think the underbidders whom you blocked from getting the coins they wanted, would happily bid again to give you flipping profit?

2. You tried to flip in an auction where the auctioneers themselves are also flipping and consigning. 

If you can't realise how the reasons above affected your consignments, you should better quit the flipping business. 

I apologise for my harsh words (so close to Christmas) - you either didn't read properly or didn't understand anything properly. 
 
A loss was logical and I was always aware of it. But selling coins worth around 150-300 euros (each) in a group lot for an average of 20 euros / per coin has nothing to do with the usual loss. 
 
The fact that coins are thrown into a pot without being asked, into a pot that makes no numismatic sense, then no description is created but only 16 "mixed coins" and then only one side - namely the head - is depicted, so that interested parties do not even know what reference type the coins are (they do not even know which Commodus it was in each case) - then this has absolutely nothing to do with your "bought and sold too quickly". Nothing at all!
 
Once again for you. A loss was logical. But it was about the fact that - although available - important information (which other auction houses do provide) on pedigree and rarity was not given (because probably not everything is always taken into account with 7000 coins - but then perhaps fewer coins should be offered in order to maintain quality). And the main issue was that coins (partly "valuable") were put into a group lot without being asked (!), without description, without information and then only photographed on one side, so that nobody knew which RIC or which RPC it was.

This poor work has brought UNNECESSARY loss. 

[Prieure de Sion]

16 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Very, very true statement 

Ah, so you would also be perfectly happy if a large number of your coins (some of them expensive) were put into group lots without being asked, without a description, photographed on one side only, so that nobody could recognise which type they were?
 
Don't be angry with me - but don't tell me something like that 😉 

 

It's easy to talk when you haven't lost any money yourself. But - I repeat myself - if you had delivered your coins to an auction house, your information would have been disregarded and your coins would have been put into group lots without asking (in a mess, without a description, only one side photographed), then you would get a ridiculous 20 euros per coin - You would be pissed off and upset too. And please don't tell me anything else.

And that has nothing to do with quick buying and quick selling. I keep buying coins (in my shop) last week and selling them again just 1-2 days later. I know the market prices. In the last two years I have sold almost 1,100 coins. Successful. This has nothing to do with bought quick, sold quick.

But there is an extreme difference in how I offer the coins. If I try hard, I'll get decent money. If I just put a picture and write a quick 0815 text - then a coin will sell worse or not at all.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[El Cazador]

17 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Ah, so you would also be perfectly happy if a large number of your coins (some of them expensive) were put into group lots without being asked, without a description, photographed on one side only, so that nobody could recognise which type they were?
 
Don't be angry with me - but don't tell me something like that 😉 

 

It's easy to talk when you haven't lost any money yourself. But - I repeat myself - if you had delivered your coins to an auction house, your information would have been disregarded and your coins would have been put into group lots without asking (in a mess, without a description, only one side photographed), then you would get a ridiculous 20 euros per coin - You would be pissed off and upset too.

And that has nothing to do with quick buying and quick selling. I keep buying coins (in my shop) last week and selling them again just 1-2 days later. I know the market prices. In the last two years I have sold almost 1,100 coins. Successful. This has nothing to do with bought quick, sold quick.

But there is an extreme difference in how I offer the coins. If I try hard, I'll get decent money. If I just put a picture and write a quick 0815 text - then a coin will sell worse or not at all.

 

Well, appreciate the paragraph here, but as @ajaxindicated your business model was built on flipping coins rather quickly and charging 100-200% markups above what the coin recently sold.

secondly, you kept best coins in your store, yet consigned a bunch of common, 30 euro coins and expected different results.

Totally rational from the AH perspective to put these common, low value, low interest, mass produced coins in the lots.- I would have done exactly the same.

🤗

Edited December 23, 2023 by El Cazador

[Prieure de Sion]

Just now, El Cazador said:

Well, appreciate the paragraph here, but as @ajaxindicated your business model was built on flipping coins rather quickly and charging 100-200% markups above what the coin recently sold.

So you didn't read it correctly? I didn't expect a 100-200% profit on the Leu auction. Where is that? Show me the text please? Where did I write that I expected this? On the contrary - I wrote that I expected a LOSS. But not with a 70-80% loss on some coins! And especially not - if such a high loss could have been avoided!

 

3 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

secondly, you kept best coins in your store, yet consigned a bunch of common, 30 euro coins and expected different results.

Don't be mad at me - but you apparently just skimmed everything and don't seem to know either the coins or the text here.

Which 30 euro coins where I expected high winnings? Do you read what I write? I'm talking about EXPENSIVE coins. Coins from a great collection or coins that are not available in the RIC / RPC (or other standard references). The lot includes an expensive Commodus coin, a Commodus RPC unique piece and a province coin that is a newly discovered type. And these expensive coins were sold off in a lot for 20 euros.

You are constructing something here that I expected a 100-200% profit and there were only 30 euro coins in the auction that I wanted to sell at a high price. Maybe you'll read the text correctly - and then comment. Thanks.

[El Cazador]

1 minute ago, Prieure de Sion said:

So you didn't read it correctly? I didn't expect a 100-200% profit on the Leu auction. Where is that? Show me the text please? Where did I write that I expected this? On the contrary - I wrote that I expected a LOSS. But not with a 70-80% loss on some coins! And especially not - if such a high loss could have been avoided!

 

Don't be mad at me - but you apparently just skimmed everything and don't seem to know either the coins or the text here.

Which 30 euro coins where I expected high winnings? Do you read what I write? I'm talking about EXPENSIVE coins. Coins from a great collection or coins that are not available in the RIC / RPC (or other standard references). The lot includes an expensive Commodus coin, a Commodus RPC unique piece and a province coin that is a newly discovered type. And these expensive coins were sold off in a lot for 20 euros.

You are constructing something here that I expected a 100-200% profit and there were only 30 euro coins in the auction that I wanted to sell at a high price. Maybe you'll read the text correctly - and then comment. Thanks.

NOTHING from what you consigned was either valuable or expensive.

I will recap here, those were 30-40 euro coins that deserved to be in group lots.

Please try consigning interesting, valuable coins from your store and don’t anticipate minimum 100% profit on each coin (like you currently do)

Greed - is not good, as it turns out!

✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼 🎄🎅

[Prieure de Sion]

Just now, El Cazador said:

Please try consigning interesting, valuable coins from your store and don’t anticipate minimum 100% profit on each coin (like you currently do)

Where exactly do I expect 100% profit? Show me that please. One or two example. Not just allegations. Do you have something to show - or just allegations?

 

1 minute ago, El Cazador said:

NOTHING from what you consigned was either valuable or expensive.

That depends on your perspective. If 1000 euro coins are not expensive for you - that may be. For some, 500 euros is expensive. If all of this isn't expensive for you, that may be true. If you classify my Commodus large bronze as "cheap" - that may be true for you.

But even if a coin with a value of 150 euros is cheap - and in the end only brings 20 euros - it is an unnecessary loss if, after good work, the coin in another auction house would fetch at least 70 euros instead of 150 euros.

But how do you know that in the group lot? You only see the front - how do you know which coin had which value?

 

7 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Greed - is not good, as it turns out!

 

Of course, that's why I have so many repeat customers and sales - because I'm greedy 😉 

[Salomons Cat]

@Prieure de Sion is one of the best sellers that I know. He studies all of his coins, he adds perfect and detailled information to each of his offers. 
This IS actually adding value to the coins. And usually there is only a rather small mark-up, compaired to the auction prices.

He‘s absolutely not acting like others - CGB for example, where the descriptions are not correct and they still sell the coins for 2.5x the recent auction price.

@El Cazador, what you‘re doing is just diffamation, from my point of view. @Prieure de Sion contributes a lot to the numismatic community. And what he mentioned here are just facts, that doesn‘t have anything to do with greed.

It‘s also in your interest, @El Cazador, that people like this stay in this business.

[Prieure de Sion]

1 minute ago, Salomons Cat said:

@Prieure de Sion is one of the best sellers that I know. He studies all of his coins, he adds perfect and detailled information to each of his offers. 
This IS actually adding value to the coins. And usually there is only a rather small mark-up, compaired to the auction prices.

 

Thanks.

Salomon Cat is one of my customers. I shouldn't praise yourself too much. Sorry for that. But my customers usually know exactly my purchase prices. Because for most coins I also write down which auction the coin comes from. Anyone can check the purchase price with me and calculate it themselves.

And I can write this publicly without a bad conscience - because my buyers confirm it - my markups are very moderate and very fair - sometimes even very low.

Please excuse me if I'm upset here. But 100-200% profit and then especially calling myself greedy - that makes me angry. Because that is actually an assumption that is not true.

I am upset - because the auction house did not do its job to my satisfaction - which other auction houses do. I had expected a loss because that was clear when I decided not to sell the whole pack of coins myself. I wanted them out of storage in one fell swoop. I knew there was a loss. But if he had done a good job he wouldn't have had to pay so much. That annoys me. Because it was unnecessary. Loss is often unavoidable. However, losses due to mistakes that you didn't have to make are annoying - because they are avoidable.

But don't pretend I'm a salesman who's all about greed. You're making a mistake in your tone - clearly.

[El Cazador]

6 minutes ago, Salomons Cat said:

@Prieure de Sion is one of the best sellers that I know. He studies all of his coins, he adds perfect and detailled information to each of his offers. 
This IS actually adding value to the coins. And usually there is only a rather small mark-up, compaired to the auction prices.

He‘s absolutely not acting like others - CGB for example, where the descriptions are not correct and they still sell the coins for 2.5x the recent auction price.

@El Cazador, what you‘re doing is just diffamation, from my point of view. @Prieure de Sion contributes a lot to the numismatic community. And what he mentioned here are just facts, that doesn‘t have anything to do with greed.

It‘s also in your interest, @El Cazador, that people like this stay in this business.

How is it in the interest of a fellow collectors to pay 200% on the coin that was sold 2 days ago?

before using words like defamation @Salomons Catplease refer to its meaning. Stating facts is reasonable. And please refrain from tagging me going forward in your posts…

[El Cazador]

1 minute ago, Prieure de Sion said:

 

Thanks.

Salomon Cat is one of my customers. I shouldn't praise yourself too much. Sorry for that. But my customers usually know exactly my purchase prices. Because for most coins I also write down which auction the coin comes from. Anyone can check the purchase price with me and calculate it themselves.

And I can write this publicly without a bad conscience - because my buyers confirm it - my markups are very moderate and very fair - sometimes even very low.

Please excuse me if I'm upset here. But 100-200% profit and then especially calling myself greedy - that makes me angry. Because that is actually an assumption that is not true.

I am upset - because the auction house did not do its job to my satisfaction - which other auction houses do. I had expected a loss because that was clear when I decided not to sell the whole pack of coins myself. I wanted them out of storage in one fell swoop. I knew there was a loss. But if he had done a good job he wouldn't have had to pay so much. That annoys me. Because it was unnecessary. Loss is often unavoidable. However, losses due to mistakes that you didn't have to make are annoying - because they are avoidable.

But don't pretend I'm a salesman who's all about greed. You're making a mistake in your tone - clearly.

Ok, let’s close the topic but please stop blaming auction house for your own mistakes 

[Prieure de Sion]

1 minute ago, El Cazador said:

stop blaming auction house for your own mistakes 

Don't ask the customer put a large of coins into a Group is a customers mistake...? Ok.

 

4 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

How is it in the interest of a fellow collectors to pay 200% on the coin that was sold 2 days ago?

Boy! You keep saying someone expects a 200% profit. Who demanded or claimed this?

Again! WHERE in this thread is there a single line that says I expected 100% or even 200%? WHERE? Don't always just make claims. Why don't you show me where it is? WHERE? Or can you just make assertions without arguments?

Or do you mean my shop? Show me a coin with 200% profit or even 100% profit? Show me!

Do you just have allegations or do you also have arguments and facts?

 

2 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Ok, let’s close the topic but please stop blaming

You blaming yourself - you keep saying I want 100-200% profit and that I'm greedy, but you don't provide any examples. And then you want to end it. Don't you have any arguments to show?

[Prieure de Sion]

8 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

How is it in the interest of a fellow collectors to pay 200% on the coin that was sold 2 days ago?

Something general. No retailer makes 200% on their goods - not even CGB. There are exceptions. If you accidentally discover a great coin that everyone forgets - and you don't know why you just won a Cleopatra or a Caligula in an auction for 500 euros. Yes, then - then the dealer sometimes makes more than 200% profit. But that's the one lottery win that you win every now and then. And every dealer needs it - because he not only wins a valuable coin by chance for little money a few times a year - he also loses a lot of money several times a year (just as an example) to fraudsters. This is what is called commercially sound mixed costing. But the fact that you constantly make 100-200% profit is nonsense. If you think so, you should try it out yourself as a dealer. But the money isn't on the street.

And why do collectors buy from dealers - even though they could buy cheaper at auctions themselves?

This is explained very simply. I have many customers who are very busy at work. You don't have the time or desire to go through auction catalogs. They would rather spend their time with the coins or with the family. You don't want to spend time constantly watching auctions, sitting in front of them, bidding. You don’t want any hassle with foreign transfers. With customs fees. With shipping problems. And then the dealers do that. We spend time watching auctions, bidding, taking care of payment, customs and shipping. I even create special videos for my customers so they can see the quality. and this service costs us dealers time and the customer money. It's a service - and customers are willing to pay for good service.

But numismatists are educated people. My customers know what a coin costs and is worth. You can't fool customers. They're not dumb. Customers are willing to pay for the service. But not at ridiculous prices. If I charged 200%, I wouldn't have any customers tomorrow. This also applies to other retailers. We do a service. And we don't work for free. If you don't want to use this service - that's no problem. Buy your coins directly from the auction house. It's a free world. You can do everything yourself - or use a service. But don't expect the service to be free for you!

[El Cazador]

1 minute ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Something general. No retailer makes 200% on their goods - not even CGB. There are exceptions. If you accidentally discover a great coin that everyone forgets - and you don't know why you just won a Cleopatra or a Caligula in an auction for 500 euros. Yes, then - then the dealer sometimes makes more than 200% profit. But that's the one lottery win that you win every now and then. And every dealer needs it - because he not only wins a valuable coin by chance for little money a few times a year - he also loses a lot of money several times a year (just as an example) to fraudsters. This is what is called commercially sound mixed costing. But the fact that you constantly make 100-200% profit is nonsense. If you think so, you should try it out yourself as a dealer. But the money isn't on the street.

And why do collectors buy from dealers - even though they could buy cheaper at auctions themselves?

This is explained very simply. I have many customers who are very busy at work. You don't have the time or desire to go through auction catalogs. They would rather spend their time with the coins or with the family. You don't want to spend time constantly watching auctions, sitting in front of them, bidding. You don’t want any hassle with foreign transfers. With customs fees. With shipping problems. And then the dealers do that. We spend time watching auctions, bidding, taking care of payment, customs and shipping. I even create special videos for my customers so they can see the quality. and this service costs us dealers time and the customer money. It's a service - and customers are willing to pay for good service.

But numismatists are educated people. My customers know what a coin costs and is worth. You can't fool customers. They're not dumb. Customers are willing to pay for the service. But not at ridiculous prices. If I charged 200%, I wouldn't have any customers tomorrow. This also applies to other retailers. We do a service. And we don't work for free. If you don't want to use this service - that's no problem. Buy your coins directly from the auction house. It's a free world. You can do everything yourself - or use a service. But don't expect the service to be free for you!

Merry Christmas!

[Prieure de Sion]

Just now, El Cazador said:

Merry Christmas!

Sorry - making claims and insults and then not providing any examples and then saying goodbye when you're supposed to provide arguments and examples - that's a deep insight. 

[kirispupis]

4 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Something general. No retailer makes 200% on their goods - not even CGB.

I guess where I still have questions, and please read this as a curiosity rather than a reproach, is why do this at all?

I fully believe you that it's difficult to make much of a profit in this business. I saw my son go through this with his sports cards. Sure, he had success stories, such as when he sold a card for $24k from a $300 box or when one of his clients pulled a $90k card from a $1500 box, but those were tremendous exceptions. He lost a tremendous amount of money from fraudsters. These days, credit card companies automatically side with the buyers, even when you prove the package was delivered.

Eventually he decided it was enough and folded his business. When you averaged everything out, he was making 10-15% on each sale, but fraud negated all that and more. And he wasn't buying these cards at auction but directly from distributors (new boxes). Therefore, I fully believe you when you provide the travails of buying ancient coins at auction and reselling them, so I question why so many do it.

From my perspective as a buyer, I do tire of it. I get downright mad when I see a coin I really want at auction, research it to discover the fair market price is $500, bid $750, and lose it so it can be listed for $2k. I'm also tired of seeing coins that are worth $50 being listed for $200. I just feel too many people are trying to game a profit and it ends up costing all of us more.

It seems to me a fairer business model is a buyer asks for a lifetime tet of Alexander in at least VF condition. A max price is set and the buyer knows he/she will pay a 20% markup (over all costs) for the service. The company clears possible targets with the buyer before bidding, then pursues them. 

[Prieure de Sion]

58 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I guess where I still have questions, and please read this as a curiosity rather than a reproach, is why do this at all?

All good kirispupis - I know you as a constructive colleague here. I know what you mean. And we can exchange arguments. So everything is ok - I don't understand anything wrong with you 😉 

Because it's a hobby. I'm lucky that it's just a hobby and I don't rely on a single cent of profit. If I had to live on it - pay my rent, my insurance, my family - I would look for another job tomorrow. 

For me it has three big advantages.

I'm serious - I can't decide on a collecting area. I want to see all the coins. But that's not possible as a collector - unless I were a millionaire and didn't care about the money. But as a dealer, I get my hands on all the coins. Also very expensive. Which I might never have bought otherwise.

And then that was my apprenticeship. I am a trained businessman/salesman. I loved working in sales back then. Selling was a calling for me back then. Of course because of the money. But I love sales. It may sound strange - but back then, selling was not just a job for me, but also a hobby. And it might sound strange when I write to you - I like buying an extraordinary coin and then selling it to an equally enthusiastic collector. And if he's happy to get a great coin from me - then that's a joy for me. I enjoy selling - that's how it is.

And... in the end there is still some money left over with which I can buy 1-2 coins privately for my collection. I don't have to make a living from it - selling is my hobby and I really enjoy it - and I can use the profit to buy one or two coins a month. That's great.

 

58 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I fully believe you that it's difficult to make much of a profit in this business. I saw my son go through this with his sports cards. Sure, he had success stories, such as when he sold a card for $24k from a $300 box or when one of his clients pulled a $90k card from a $1500 box, but those were tremendous exceptions. He lost a tremendous amount of money from fraudsters. These days, credit card companies automatically side with the buyers, even when you prove the package was delivered.

Thats a big Problem!

On the one hand, everyone wants to have money! The auction house where you buy will hit you with fees. The payment methods also want money. And if you sell at VCoins or MA-Shop - these operators also want money - logical. And the state also wants taxes on your profits. It's often really tight.

And the last thing you say is a very big problem!

It's less of a problem to win money! But it is a problem to keep the profit. You can - just as an example - have a good month and make $5000 in profit! This win - you are so happy - can be gone in a minute!
 
exactly as you say - every customer has 6 weeks to cancel their credit card payment! And actually the customers always win!

An example. We had a cheating couple from Canada. This couple has won or ordered coins from many well-known auction houses and dealers. All were paid by credit card. There are many houses that you all know 😉

After exactly 5 weeks they canceled ALL credit card payments!
 
But now be careful. Even though the case was reported to the Canadian Police - even though we dealers and auction houses all got together and reported it to the police and the bank at the same time - even though there was evidence from UPS and Co that the two had received the goods - and even though It turned out that the man was a convicted fraudster with a criminal record - the bank from Canada let the cancellation go through!

The couple with two different names and addresses bought Gold Solidi from me. In an instant, 1-2 months of profit is gone. Just go away! And no insurance and no one will pay this for you! If this wasn't my hobby, I would have gone crazy. But I had just worked for free for 1-2 months.
 
That's why you can't always just see the profits. A dealer doesn't just have to add pure profit. He must also take other risks into account in the profit calculation. Otherwise he risks commercial suicide.

But many non-self-employed people only ever see - oh bought for 1000 USD - sold for 2000 USD - my goodness, the man must be rich! But these are the people who start their own business and are broke 6 months later.

 

58 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

From my perspective as a buyer, I do tire of it. I get downright mad when I see a coin I really want at auction, research it to discover the fair market price is $500, bid $750, and lose it so it can be listed for $2k. I'm also tired of seeing coins that are worth $50 being listed for $200. I just feel too many people are trying to game a profit and it ends up costing all of us more.

I understand these examples and I know these examples make you angry!

I always ask myself - will the dealer ever sell this coin?

But! As I said, I can easily talk about it. I don't have to make a living from it. I'm already foh if I earn 10-20%. But again - I don't depend on this money.

I told you - I often ask myself - if someone has to make a living from this business and feed their family - how do they do that?

I'm talking about the "small" traders of course! One man shows! You know, the big auction houses - they generate completely different numbers. They also swallow a $5,000 fraud. Not a small dealer.

But I repeat myself. If this had to be my main job - I would tell you clearly - NO, I wouldn't want to do that as my main job! I have a hell of a lot of respect for colleagues who use this to finance their lives!

 

58 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

It seems to me a fairer business model is a buyer asks for a lifetime tet of Alexander in at least VF condition. A max price is set and the buyer knows he/she will pay a 20% markup (over all costs) for the service. The company clears possible targets with the buyer before bidding, then pursues them. 

This is (now) my main business.
 
Most of my customers have wish lists with me. What is wanted? At what price? And I'm looking for it. Almost all of my regular customers have such lists with me.

And then I now know what my customers want. I buy it, put it publicly in my shop - and my customers look in and buy.

Take a look at how long a coin stays unsold online with me. Most coins are already sold after 2-3 days. How come? Because I buy specifically for my regular customers and they actually buy straight away.

 

 

And since I'm open to my customers - I don't have to hide anything - here's a little calculation example for you (and other readers here). Why its possible that a 1000 buy and a 2000 sell isn't so much!

Nero Sestertius - buyed from TimeLine:
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/timeline/browse?a=4045&l=4783025 

Hammer: 1.100 GBP
With fees, shipping and insurance: 1.403 GBP
Include 7% Import Tax (98 Euro): 1.501 GBP
Amount in EURO = 1.728 Euro

You can buy the Nero here for 1.999 Euro
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/yoshua_three_coins/315/product/video_incl_rr_impressive_nero_ric_516_date_66_ad_ae_bronze_sestertius_lugdunum_gaul_roma/2005426/Default.aspx 

1.999 Euro - 1.728 Euro = 271 Euro brutto

I won't tell you exactly what the commission is when selling VCoins / MA Shop that I have to pay when I sell the coin - but approximately

271 Euro - Shop fees around 70 Euro = 200 Euro

And now - thats business - your State wants tax for profit from you! From this 200 Euro the German state wants 70 Euro from me at the end. Thats a netto win of 130 Euro! 

I'm not telling any secrets. Everyone can see where I bought the coin. Everyone knows the auction costs. The German import tax is also no secret. It is logical that we retailers also have to pay commission when selling in the shops. And it's probably no secret that in the USA, England, Germany and other countries you have to pay taxes on your winnings.

But if this guy claims you easily earn 100-200% per coin and is greedy. That makes me blush.

So that we understand each other properly. With some coins you have a little more. But for some coins less. And in the end it is - hopefully - a good mix of everything and you can feed your family normally with it. But really rich - no small dealer gets rich, I say.

But what's important with this Nero example that I just calculated!

Please look. I don't mean anything angry with you!

You (and others) see - the dealer (in this case me) buys a Nero for 1,000 and sells the nero in the shop for 2,000! WOW! 1000 difference! That's what many see!

But do you see how quickly these 1000 melt away?
- Auction house surcharge
- Shipping insurance
- Import customs
- Shop fees
- State profit tax

You can do the math yourself using Nero. But the 130 euros pure profit is the realistic profit - IF I sell the coin at all.

You see - 1000 purchase - 2000 sale - that's 100% more than the hammer price - but there's not much left.

If I had to live on it and feed my family and pay for my life with it - I would actually have to sell the Nero for 2,500 euros (at least)!

Maybe you can now calculate that a hammer price of 1000 USD and a sale of 2500 USD is not the dealer's greed 😉

Edited December 23, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Limes]

Just my two cents, and there s something the be said from all different perspectives. And in not picking sides here or whatever.

First, agreed that Leu could have done better perhaps, just dont see how this could have increased the hammer price of your coins significantly. Second, leu offers thousands of coins in all their auctions. They have done this many times. So why conseign there? Third, how did the communication go.before consignment? I have asked questions to auction houses, on how they would offer a coin, in a group lot or not, and so on. Then made a decision. Or did they give you different information? Fourth, buying common coins at Leu does not make sense to me, as a buyer. Maybe as a bonus coin, added to another purchase, but not more the that. The fees are simply to high. So Id think, that if you want to attract buyers to more, sort of, common coins, a different auctioneer makes.more sense to me. 

I know a lot of sellers on e.g. MA shop get their coins on offer from auctions. You do too. Thats fine of course, and I also make use of it, if I missed something at an auction. But what I dont like, as @kirispupis mentions, is sellers buying coins only to offer them at a much higher price. Like your Nero sesterius, I can easy look up the price you got it at, and see for how much you now offer it. Its your choice, but as a buyer I avoid your offers because to me its not a fair market price. But thats my choice, and you will have hopefully a lot of customers of course.

Edit: its the Nero with the arc reverse, portrait to the left by the way. 

And overall, no hard feelings!

Edited December 23, 2023 by Limes