Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[NewStyleKing]

https://www.academia.edu/36887680/Elmalı_Definesi_The_Elmali_Hoard   = The Dekadrachm hoard.    The shenanigans associated with the smuggling of this hoard are still obscure.  A very famous numismatist was "associated" with the hoard ending up in the USA.  The details of the fake provenances provided I do not know.  People do not appear to be interested in that and the faking of Dekadrachms that appeared for sale. This makes the Rich Beale story have a sort of context.

This one appeared in CNG  but was deemed a fake by clive Stannard, ( as far as I know).....

https://www.academia.edu/1442963/Dies_hubs_forgeries_and_the_Athenian_decadrachm

https://plone.unige.ch/art-adr/cases-affaires/elmali-hoard-2013-turkey-and-oks-partners#:~:text=coins to Turkey.-,The coins were part of the Elmali Hoard%2C a precious,litigation in the United States.

Edited March 12, 2023 by NewStyleKing

[AmazedAncient]

22 hours ago, Heliodromus said:

Eyes wide open is one thing, but revelling in being a cowboy seems entirely another.

Certainly some museums are not the best custodians of ancients, and most coins don't belong there in the first place. Many/most antiquities laws relating to coins seem poorly thought out, even when well intentioned, and end up encouraging non-reporting and therefore destruction of history.

However, that all said, illegal excavation and disbursal of hoards is a shame. I don't think individual finds have much if anything to tell us, although aggregated find-spots would be useful, but hoards certainly do, and post-disbursal attempted reconstruction really isn't the same. Take the recent Rauceby hoard of late roman bronzes from England... it was at least reported thanks to England's sensible laws, but sadly the coins were removed from the container by the finder rather than in a controlled/recorded way, and now we've completely lost the layering of coins within the pot, which may have helped understand the nature of the hoard and perhaps fine dating of the issues.

I'm not sure why you think there was a NewStyle hoard coming out of the Balkans specifically, although of course easy to guess if coins are part of a hoard or not. During the break up of Yugoslavia the market was flooded with LRBs - appearing to all be individual finds, so no great loss to history, which presumably did originate out of that region. In that case there was nothing one could do to differentiate coins that may have come from there from whatever else was on the market at the time... eyes wide open, one would be foolish not to realize that some of the coins bought during that time period must have come from there, but that's not the same thing as revelling in the break up of an assumed illegally excavated hoard.

I'm a bit surprised to see AmazedAncient like your message. He/she just joined the board to participate in this thread, and I was wondering if it might be Mr. Beale himself given the message content. Odd to see this same person apparently condoning cowboy collecting and suggestions the Eid Mar may be fake.

 

NewStyleKing hit on many pertinent points related to this matter & the state of current operational affairs.

Yes, I'm new to this forum and thanks for allowing me to comment. No, I'm not Mr. Beale, but I give the benefit of the doubt to him. I have been collecting coins for 5 decades. My 1st ancient coin was from CNA #1. Way back in a much earlier comment I clearly stated I do not condone "misrepresentations, theft and illicit activities."

As far as "cowboy collecting" goes, not sure what it means. My numismatic approach would be considered "old school collecting" (whatever that means) to the younger generation....

Back to the NewStyleKing comments:

There are some great sociological essay explanations of how and why wayward government restrictions, bans, etc,  create "alternative market operations" especially when new rules arise. The topic actually belongs in the Young Sociology Forum, but relates here & I'll just say this:

For centuries, the very noble, intellectual and legitimate ancient coin collecting endeavor was never a U.S. government concern, nor a N.Y. law enforcement preoccupation.

When the U.S. government started listening & acting on the anti-coin collecting lobbyists, moving then to legislate restrictive import laws on coin collecting and started ramping up the use of tax dollars to obtain questionable coin lists, fund covert seizures, secret enforcement training, undisclosed informants, etc, etc, the operations of this noble, intellectual and legitimate coin collecting endeavor was essentially forced into the (never before) legal quest for permits, licenses, ancestry, lineage, grey area loopholes, declarations, pedigrees, territorial boundaries, exhibits, find spot maps & debatable origins (long sentence required). Did I miss something?

All for a coin! 

Suddenly 'orphan' ancient coins needed to have a family. 

I truly believe Mr. Beale's is a product of this daunting challenge. His quest for a detailed pedigree may have been motivated by an urgency to abide and comply with these rules & restrictions on coin collecting. Yes, motivation was also to make money (virtuous too), but the urgency to comply came first. Strictly an opinion. 

Roma Numismatics will get past this questionable enforcement crusade. In fact, the quest for a legitimate "pedigree" sideshow & the legitimate questions (in this case) have already added an unparalleled narrative to these already historical coins, unknowingly. Just hope Mr. Beale has great support and perseverance.

BTW, I do not believe NGC has guaranteed the EID MAR authenticity.

[Heliodromus]

1 hour ago, AmazedAncient said:

I truly believe Mr. Beale's is a product of this daunting challenge. His quest for a detailed pedigree may have been motivated by an urgency to abide and comply with these rules & restrictions on coin collecting. Yes, motivation was also to make money (virtuous too), but the urgency to comply came first. Strictly an opinion. 

I doubt it, since Roma is infamous for these pseudo-pedigrees, offered for most coins, even for the lowest LRB where no-one would expect or need one.

For example, take look at the most recently posted Roma e-Live 6 auction, and search for "From the collection of a Romanophile". Wierdest "collection" I ever saw, including coins "sold" less than a year ago, many "ex. Roma" ... Of course anyone collecting roman coins could be considered a "Romanophile", even Roma themselves, and maybe these coins are from the collections of a dozen different Romanophiles, even if one is invited to believe otherwise.

In another current Roma sale, we have a coin "2nd known, unpublished except for other coin ex. Roma", despite the coin in question having been very recently sold by G&M and 8 more specimens on the "Not in RIC" site. Certainly not forced by any regulations. Incompetence perhaps, or maybe something else?

1 hour ago, AmazedAncient said:

BTW, I do not believe NGC has guaranteed the EID MAR authenticity.

Presumably not. NGC ancients (separate from NGC) only offer opinions not guarantees.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Heliodromus

[Hesiod]

6 hours ago, SeuthesOfOdrysia said:

And I apologize for the Soros bit, I seriously don’t understand the ‘hot-potato’ ness of it, maybe I’m not privy to some recent news? My sister works for one of his foundations in Europe, and he was just at the forefront of my mind when I was thinking of a relatively obscure figure (Obama in Chicago) rising to power quickly via the backing of a powerful figure (Soros). I didn’t intend to draw any parallels between anything else whatever they may be. 

 

Soros has been subject to a lot of conspiracy theories recently, particularly among alt-right groups online so you bringing him up unprompted lead to some of the visceral reactions of posters here

[DonnaML]

8 hours ago, SeuthesOfOdrysia said:

And I apologize for the Soros bit, I seriously don’t understand the ‘hot-potato’ ness of it, maybe I’m not privy to some recent news? My sister works for one of his foundations in Europe, and he was just at the forefront of my mind when I was thinking of a relatively obscure figure (Obama in Chicago) rising to power quickly via the backing of a powerful figure (Soros). I didn’t intend to draw any parallels between anything else whatever they may be. 

 

Thank you. I never thought it was very likely that you had any ill intent, although of course I had no idea that your family history is similar to mine. The problem with the analogy, as @Hesiod points out, is that Soros is a favorite target not only of Orban in Hungary but of many extremist figures here in the USA, and is regularly accused of secretly backing everything from antifa to BLM, of paying protestors, and of every other conceivable wrongdoing. He's become the paradigmatic "International Jew" for some circles, even more than the "the Rothschilds"!

[Prieure de Sion]

I have deliberately stayed out of it for the past few days and have not read any more. Is there anything substantially new in the case as a short summary in one sentence? Or is everything still the same? 🙂 

[DonnaML]

4 hours ago, AmazedAncient said:

NewStyleKing hit on many pertinent points related to this matter & the state of current operational affairs.

Yes, I'm new to this forum and thanks for allowing me to comment. No, I'm not Mr. Beale, but I give the benefit of the doubt to him. I have been collecting coins for 5 decades. My 1st ancient coin was from CNA #1. Way back in a much earlier comment I clearly stated I do not condone "misrepresentations, theft and illicit activities."

As far as "cowboy collecting" goes, not sure what it means. My numismatic approach would be considered "old school collecting" (whatever that means) to the younger generation....

Back to the NewStyleKing comments:

There are some great sociological essay explanations of how and why wayward government restrictions, bans, etc,  create "alternative market operations" especially when new rules arise. The topic actually belongs in the Young Sociology Forum, but relates here & I'll just say this:

For centuries, the very noble, intellectual and legitimate ancient coin collecting endeavor was never a U.S. government concern, nor a N.Y. law enforcement preoccupation.

When the U.S. government started listening & acting on the anti-coin collecting lobbyists, moving then to legislate restrictive import laws on coin collecting and started ramping up the use of tax dollars to obtain questionable coin lists, fund covert seizures, secret enforcement training, undisclosed informants, etc, etc, the operations of this noble, intellectual and legitimate coin collecting endeavor was essentially forced into the (never before) legal quest for permits, licenses, ancestry, lineage, grey area loopholes, declarations, pedigrees, territorial boundaries, exhibits, find spot maps & debatable origins (long sentence required). Did I miss something?

All for a coin! 

Suddenly 'orphan' ancient coins needed to have a family. 

I truly believe Mr. Beale's is a product of this daunting challenge. His quest for a detailed pedigree may have been motivated by an urgency to abide and comply with these rules & restrictions on coin collecting. Yes, motivation was also to make money (virtuous too), but the urgency to comply came first. Strictly an opinion. 

Roma Numismatics will get past this questionable enforcement crusade. In fact, the quest for a legitimate "pedigree" sideshow & the legitimate questions (in this case) have already added an unparalleled narrative to these already historical coins, unknowingly. Just hope Mr. Beale has great support and perseverance.

BTW, I do not believe NGC has guaranteed the EID MAR authenticity.

On the whole, I believe that the primary impetus behind all the import restrictions, going back to the UNESCO Convention more than 50 years ago, has had little or nothing to do with coins, but has been the concern over non-numismatic antiquities theft, and artifacts illicitly acquired by museums and major collectors -- often worth amounts dwarfing all but the most expensive coins.  The ancient coin market has effectively been a spillover victim of that concern because coins fall within the definitions of ancient artifacts. Even though few of them are unique (there are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of most), many were intended in the first place to be distributed internationally rather than limited to the place of origin, and the overwhelming majority really aren't worth very much. So I still tend to believe that except for a relatively small number of exceptions, the ancient coin market isn't at serious risk. Nobody's coming after our LRBs!

[DonnaML]

8 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I have deliberately stayed out of it for the past few days and have not read any more. Is there anything substantially new in the case as a short summary in one sentence? Or is everything still the same? 🙂 

Look for the link above to the artnews.com article yesterday. Lots of gossip about Mr. Beale!

[Kaleun96]

22 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

For example, take look at the most recently posted Roma e-Live 6 auction, and search for "From the collection of a Romanophile". Wierdest "collection" I ever saw, including coins "sold" less than a year ago, many "ex. Roma" ... Of course anyone collecting roman coins could be considered a "Romanophile", even Roma themselves, and maybe these coins are from the collections of a dozen different Romanophiles, even if one is invited to believe otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me if it's more of Italo Vecchi's collection under a different name, though perhaps not the Bursio section of the sale. Comparing it to Vecchi's previous auction at Roma, E-Live 5, I do see some similarities, like the re-selling of ex. Roma lots from a few years ago that you mentioned. I believe the previous sale was mostly Greek and then this latest one is mostly Roman, could be that they planned to auction off his collection in two parts.

Would be interesting if that's the case but I'm not sure if there's any way to know for sure. If it is true, I'd also wonder why they felt the need to change the collection name.

[Heliodromus]

42 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I have deliberately stayed out of it for the past few days and have not read any more. Is there anything substantially new in the case as a short summary in one sentence? Or is everything still the same? 🙂 

Per the Art News reporting, apparently the Eid Mar (in addition to the Naxos coin) was seized by authorities, and will be repatriated to it's "home" country.

https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/worlds-most-expensive-coin-fake-provenance-roman-eid-mar-1234659762/

[archéologue]

On 3/12/2023 at 12:53 AM, SeuthesOfOdrysia said:

This thread hit me personally, as it relates to Roma and Mr. Beale and the current happenings are a blown up carbon copy of the problems I have had with Roma in the past. I wish this wasnt my first comment, but alas, I just could not resist.

I think there are several common misconceptions here:

1) That this case "came out of nowhere"

2) That Roma "came out of nowhere", and Mr. Beale established himself with his own merits and superior acumen

3) That other auctions are/were "jealous" of Beale's success and lack of pedigree regarding coin collecting - and this is revenge of the giants against an upstart

This case (fraud/falsified provenance) did not come out of nowhere. This was the result of many issues Roma has had in the past, some of which I have had the misfortune to experience personally.

I LOVED Roma. It was my go to for Greek and Roman coins, and IMO, had better selections than CNG and Gorny & Mosch, my two other go-to's for this hobby. I capitalized 'love' because, well, I probably spent well over $1 to 2 million just at Roma in 4 years. Where it all went wrong was in 2020, when, a friend of mine who is an expert (professor of archaeology) visited and noted a few strange things related to two of my coins from Roma. Not to get into the details, one was a coin that was tampered with (but not disclosed at auction - specifically drilled and re-filled), and the other was not from the collection it said it was from, in fact it most certainly was 'stolen' or illegally shipped as my friend was able to track down exactly where it came from, and why it should never have been for sale, let alone sold from the UK.

To make a very long story short, I confronted Beale mildly - really, all I wanted was for the description of the lot to change to reflect the findings: for the 'provenance' to be removed and for the tampering to be noted. I cared not for any refund or monetary reimbursement as I collect to collect, not to sell. Ive never sold a single coin in my life, not even those I inherited and have no desire to collect. To make several boring passive aggressive emails between Beale and I short, I was banned from Roma for bringing this up.

Well, as it happened, being banned from Roma unwittingly put me in contact with a few others over the last few years that had similar issues. I became aware the Roma was certainly and obviously in the cross hairs of various antiquity watchdogs for being a regular at this, and also, for doing dubious things like claiming certain coins are rare 'hybrid' or transitional issues when in fact they are not.

Which leads me to my next contention of the point that Beale "came out of nowhere" and had no money or inheritance or pedigree or connections, and built up Roma on his own merit. Simply put, there is no way anyone can open an auction house without 1 of 2 things: serious money, or serious connections. I would assume Mr. Beale most likely belongs to the 2nd category - serious connections - and this is what allowed him to establish Roma and offer coins of the highest quality, even in its earlier days (2010 onward). Those serious connections are funnily enough, most likely what has ended up ruining his career, as he undoubtedly became emboldened enough to fake a provenance on an extremely rare and expensive coin that would undoubtedly be scrutinized at every angle for years to come. And these connections certainly don't sprout out of nowhere.

Beale seems to be the sort of perfect front man for more dubious characters in this business: he's ex-army, has no history, is passionate and charismatic and understood that much of selling coins above estimate is in the photography and presentation. In addition, he was new to the game, and most likely offered much better returns than well established auction houses that could use their brand to beat smaller collectors and dealers into giving up larger %. I think this is where it is obvious to say Beale did not come out of nowhere - he was backed by some serious dealers and collectors in the UK and EU, and if I can make the analogy, like Obama rose through the ranks to become POTUS seemingly out of nowhere, but anyone whose even remotely studies the subject can find that he had some serious billionaires (in this case, Soros) that allowed him to take to the higher stage.

It would seem a bit odd then that the scrutiny of a new and increasingly popular auction house is simply due to competition pulling strings. I think I can safely say that most collectors in general are at odds with authorities, and though there is a revolving door between agencies, universities, collectors, auction houses, etc. I dont think it is at the point of massive conspiracy. After all, the general 'fake provenance' tactics by old auction houses is listed in vague terms. When I see "Purchased from a private collection in southern Germany", I assume that this can be equally true or false, and that the auction house can also either be 'in the know' or not about the actual provenance of the coin.

This is leagues apart, though, from stating something like "Came from Henry XIII's collection" whilst knowing the exact origin of the coin. To make matters worse, it is also fairly incomprehensible to fake provenance on the highlighted auction lot, especially one that is sure to draw hundreds of thousands to millions. At this point, one has to understand, you're essentially destroying the top end of your business. Agencies could care less about someone selling an Antoninianus radiate with dubious origin for $200 with a fake provenance, but a $1 million coin? Not that Beale is alone in this, of course not. We've seen auction houses trying to sell (and sometimes even succeeding) in selling fakes of ancients in the $1 million range, let alone fake provenances.

But this does tarnish the reputation of Roma, especially among collectors of the top end category, and I cant say I feel any remorse for Beale. He has shown himself to be exactly of the same mold as many many others in this business, and those defending him - why? Why defend someone making money off half-truths and fraud? Beale is not, like many others in the business, an academic whose work precedes his reputation. All he had was his reputation, and he has currently lost a massive amount of it.

 

You put it perfectly when you described Beale as a frontman, and agree that he’s probably the ‘public’ face of others.

I’m curious whether Beale in any way declared he was the owner of the two coins being auctioned, because I’m pretty sure that under NY rules one has (or had) to - it’s the legal technically used re ancient coins the late Al Thani bought from an auction, where the auctioneers had not clarified that they owned and had put together the so-called ‘collection’ 

The Ides of March coin had been seized before 8th February, to clarify another point. 

[AmazedAncient]

On 3/12/2023 at 10:43 AM, Heliodromus said:

I doubt it, since Roma is infamous for these pseudo-pedigrees, offered for most coins, even for the lowest LRB where no-one would expect or need one.

For example, take look at the most recently posted Roma e-Live 6 auction, and search for "From the collection of a Romanophile".

In my opinion, these are not pseudo statements. 

Nor do I take these statements as nefarious, spurious or a sham. I do not believe the maligning of Roma Numismatics is in anyones best interest.

There are at least two parallel operations going on with these auction or catalog statements. Foremost is to maintain Seller anonymity. Second, is to inform potential bidders the coins are from an already existing collection. Thirdly, collectors should do not view these statements as suggesting some kind of assurance a coin complies with U.S. import restriction rules.

Top tier auction firms are obligated to maintain the anonymity of a Seller, Dealer or Institution, if so desired. Thus catalogs typically reveal little more than a specimen from a “private collection" or as the note you referenced. For example, a renowned London firm did this when a very famous Archeologist sold an amazing Etruscan collection.

There is at least one top tier firm that still rarely mentions any pedigree or provenance.

Most catalogs, back in the day, never bothered with assigning each and every coin with recorded "purebred" status, or a so-and-so upper-class ancestry. This type of info was gossip and conversation discussed at club meetings or privately at pre-sale viewing.

However, their are attorneys that want to delete Seller anonymity, especially in NY. Unfortunately, we must now choose a favorable Seller venue carefully.

It is important to know that millions and millions of ancient coins are orphans. These coins will never attain a purebred or "pedigree" status. This is the reality of most ancient coinage, a small metallic object that was produced to circulate freely in commerce, anonymously.

[John Conduitt]

18 minutes ago, AmazedAncient said:

In my opinion, these are not pseudo statements. 

Nor do I take these statements as nefarious, spurious or a sham. I do not believe the maligning of Roma Numismatics is in anyones best interest.

There are at least two parallel operations going on with these auction or catalog statements. Foremost is to maintain Seller anonymity. Second, is to inform potential bidders the coins are from an already existing collection. Thirdly, collectors should do not view these statements as suggesting some kind of assurance a coin complies with U.S. import restriction rules.

Top tier auction firms are obligated to maintain the anonymity of a Seller, Dealer or Institution, if so desired. Thus catalogs typically reveal little more than a specimen from a “private collection" or as the note you referenced. For example, a renowned London firm did this when a very famous Archeologist sold an amazing Etruscan collection.

There is at least one top tier firm that still rarely mentions any pedigree or provenance.

Most catalogs, back in the day, never bothered with assigning each and every coin with recorded "purebred" status, or a so-and-so upper-class ancestry. This type of info was gossip and conversation discussed at club meetings or privately at pre-sale viewing.

However, their are attorneys that want to delete Seller anonymity, especially in NY. Unfortunately, we must now choose a favorable Seller venue carefully.

It is important to know that millions and millions of ancient coins are orphans. These coins will never attain a purebred or "pedigree" status. This is the reality of most ancient coinage, a small metallic object that was produced to circulate freely in commerce, anonymously.

This is true, but there isn't really any sense of the word that 'from the collection of a Romanophile' is a provenance. At best, it tells you that you will not be the first owner, but given that the coin could've been looted last week and in someone's collection for a single day, it doesn't tell you anything material. There's nothing wrong with it, however - it's simply marketing.

[kapphnwn]

Not all of the vague pedigrees a spurious. At one time I was consigning a lot of coins to the V Auctions site "Triskeles" and the auctioneer decided to give me the name "Maple Leaf Collection"  All the Maple Leaf coins were mine. I suspect the reason why he decided to place this moniker on my coins was that if somebody liked one of my coins he may be encouraged to look at some of the others with more interest.  This is one of the coins from one of those auctions 

Constantius I Ae Follis Lugdunum Obv Bust left laureate draped and cuirassed Rv Genio standing left 

Triskeles Sale 322 Lot 405 December 13 2015 THIS IS NO LONGER MY COIN. The auctioneer did NOT use the Maple Leaf moniker for all my coins 

[Heliodromus]

28 minutes ago, kapphnwn said:

Not all of the vague pedigrees a spurious. At one time I was consigning a lot of coins to the V Auctions site "Triskeles" and the auctioneer decided to give me the name "Maple Leaf Collection"

Sure, and wasn't it Barry Murphy who ran Triskeles ? Zero reason not to 100% trust him.

[Kaleun96]

The search warrants for the Eid Mar, Naxos tetradrachm, and a previously undisclosed third coin are now out. Guess that confirms ArtNews' earlier claim that the Eid Mar had been seized.

Warrant_1.pdf Warrant_2.pdf

Here are the screenshots of the main bits, the PDFs have a photo of the Eid Mar and a coversheet or similar.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Kaleun96

[DonnaML]

13 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

The search warrants for the Eid Mar, Naxos tetradrachm, and a previously undisclosed third coin are now out. Guess that confirms ArtNews' earlier claim that the Eid Mar had been seized.

Warrant_1.pdf 912.13 kB · 4 downloads Warrant_2.pdf 292.56 kB · 3 downloads

Here are the screenshots of the main bits, the PDFs have a photo of the Eid Mar and a coversheet or similar.

Sounds like the buyer of the Eid Mar was located in New York? Otherwise, I don't think a warrant signed by a New York State court judge would have been valid.  

[velarfricative]

3 hours ago, AmazedAncient said:

Thirdly, collectors should do not view these statements as suggesting some kind of assurance a coin complies with U.S. import restriction rules.

Perhaps pedigrees don't, but Roma has always been rather clear about their coins complying with import restrictions:

"Our commitment to ethical and responsible provenance: the consignor affirms that this auction lot is their lawful property to sell, and where cultural property restrictions may exist, that it meets the requirements to be legally imported into the United States and Germany unless specifically stated otherwise."

[DonnaML]

This has nothing to do with the Roma situation, but dubious -- and truly preposterous -- "from an old collection" provenances are hardly limited to that company. On the Facebook ancient coins group, people have been ridiculing the stated provenance of a group of coins up for sale at the current Leu auction. To quote one member a couple of days ago: "Looks like the Leu auction had some decent bargains today so far. That person who formed the 'European collection formed before 2005' had quite the appetite for coins - among their many holdings were 42 shiny late type Lysimachus tets all from the same mint!. Amazing."  

The subsequent conversation is entertaining; I've omitted the names of those who posted the comments:

That “collector” must have loved that mint! 😂

And two Mostis tets

With the same obverse die - maybe there was a "buy one get one free" sale somewhere 🙂

There is another one from the same hoard in the new roma numismatic as well. Will be interesting to see how many of them will pop out

Does anyone really think Leu is any better than Roma? Anyone? 

They must have decided to clean them right before consignment! Interesting tactic 🤔 😂😂

fresh dip! 😂

2005 must have been the key year! A Swiss collection, a European collection, a Bavarian collection. So many collections….

Is there a yet unpublished Bavarian basement mint?

I honestly was thinking the same thing. I wouldnt be surprised if half those coins were... They all look exactly the same.

“ from a European collection before 2005” - what a joke!

Someone explains why they picked 2005:  2005 is the year that Switzerland signed on to the 1970 UNESCO Convention. Objects with a provenance before that date would be exempt from the Convention as far as Swiss authorities are concerned. How long before isn't the point, just "before"

It looks like LEU sold the infamous “Harshly Cleaned Collection”. Congratulations

LOL you noticed that too?

couldn’t miss it 🤪

All them coins looked stripped. I just figured it was the photos... lmao

Edited March 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[Roerbakmix]

3 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This is true, but there isn't really any sense of the word that 'from the collection of a Romanophile' is a provenance. At best, it tells you that you will not be the first owner, but given that the coin could've been looted last week and in someone's collection for a single day, it doesn't tell you anything material. There's nothing wrong with it, however - it's simply marketing.

They have added this ‘provenance’ to a coin I sold via them last year, which is now for sale again: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6613&lot=176

curiously enough, they omitted the real provenance which I provided before: find location, year when it was found, and documents of the registration in the numismatic Dutch database…

Edited March 13, 2023 by Roerbakmix

[DonnaML]

5 minutes ago, Roerbakmix said:

They have added this ‘provenance’ to a coin I sold via them last year, which is now for sale again: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6613&lot=176

curiously enough, they omitted the real provenance which I provided before: find location, year when it was found, and documents of the registration in the numismatic Dutch database…

Did they include the real provenance when they sold it previously?

[John Conduitt]

10 minutes ago, Roerbakmix said:

They have added this ‘provenance’ to a coin I sold via them last year, which is now for sale again: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=6613&lot=176

curiously enough, they omitted the real provenance which I provided before: find location, year when it was found, and documents of the registration in the numismatic Dutch database…

In 2022 it was 'from a private English collection.' They could've had 'from the collection of a Romanophile; ex private English collection'. 🤣

To me, the findspot and registration are gold. It shows Roma don't really think much of provenance. Which is probably why I'm one of the few who hasn't bought much from them.

Edited March 13, 2023 by John Conduitt

[DonnaML]

4 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

In 2022 it was 'from a private English collection.' They could've had 'from the collection of a Romanophile; ex private English collection'. 🤣

To me, the findspot and registration are gold. It shows Roma don't really think much of provenance. Which is probably why I'm one of the few who hasn't bought much from them.

I agree, and I don't understand the downside of providing the information you gave them. One would think it might increase the amount someone is willing to bid, and certainly couldn't hurt. And since they did disclose their own previous sale, it's not as if they're trying to conceal the previous sales price.

Edited March 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

The search warrants for the Eid Mar, Naxos tetradrachm, and a previously undisclosed third coin are now out. Guess that confirms ArtNews' earlier claim that the Eid Mar had been seized.

Warrant_1.pdf 912.13 kB · 6 downloads Warrant_2.pdf 292.56 kB · 4 downloads

Here are the screenshots of the main bits, the PDFs have a photo of the Eid Mar and a coversheet or similar.

What I find interesting is the designation of the coins as "stolen." Do we 100% know this? From what I've read, the only thing that's been admitted is that Beale and Vecchi faked the provenance. That doesn't mean either coin was actually stolen. It just means whatever provenance they had wasn't sufficient to generate a nice price at auction.

The worrisome trend I see here is that the vast majority of ancient coins sold today don't have any provenance. Many dealers simply don't track it. I would feel much better if the government would have to actually prove something was stolen before declaring it as such.

[DonnaML]

4 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

What I find interesting is the designation of the coins as "stolen." Do we 100% know this? From what I've read, the only thing that's been admitted is that Beale and Vecchi faked the provenance. That doesn't mean either coin was actually stolen. It just means whatever provenance they had wasn't sufficient to generate a nice price at auction.

The worrisome trend I see here is that the vast majority of ancient coins sold today don't have any provenance. Many dealers simply don't track it. I would feel much better if the government would have to actually prove something was stolen before declaring it as such.

Yes, of course we already knew that the government alleged that the coins were stolen. Otherwise Beale wouldn't have been charged with the crimes he was charged with! As I'm sure you're aware, the government doesn't have to "prove" anything at this stage. That's the entire purpose of the trial. They simply have to show enough facts to convince a judge that there's "reasonable cause" sufficient to issue a search warrant. And the affidavit showing such facts doesn't get released to the public, as much as the public may be curious as to what it says.