Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[DonnaML]

8 hours ago, akeady said:

Maybe they don't remember which provenances are real and which are made-up, so just went with the "private English collection" until noticing this thread 😄

ATB,
Aidan.

I assume you're joking, but I think someone at Roma (Richard, is that you?) has to be reading this thread. It's too much of a coincidence otherwise that Roma made the correction. And I also think this suggests that their cataloguers don't always bother actually looking at descriptions in previous auctions, even when they list those auctions. 

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, AmazedAncient said:

I view the Leu sale of a series of ancient coins as not unlike Stacks selling a roll of Washington quarters. Yes, if an honest U.S. citizen tries to acquire a Leu coin, it might get seized by CBP and their collaborating informants. For the most part, the rest of the world does not have this Gestapo-like attack on coin collectors.

Most disturbing is to watch Americans lose the right to collect ancient coins. This becomes evident when intelligent & conscientious American collectors buy into and adopt the radically antithetical beliefs and hypocrisy of a small AIA group using their systematic anti-collecting arguments to forcibly pressure their draconian restrictions. Virtually all of the AIA moral arguments about coin collecting are unfounded and totally hyperbolic.

I think we all need to step back from the moral judgments about coins and take a minute to read the ANS Cultural Property Statement:

"It is unreasonable to assume that a coin is stolen, illegally exported, or illegally imported merely because the holder cannot establish a chain of custody beyond receipt from a reputable source. Taken together, such considerations argue that within the world of artifacts, coins as a class do, in fact, stand apart."

I completely agree with the ANS statement. Paul Barford's views and mine have virtually nothing in common.

But I don't for one moment believe that any such assumption that "absence of proof of chain of custody = theft" is the basis for the charges in the Beale case. Otherwise, the substantial majority of ancient coin sales, other than sales of coins with export permits and/or known to have come from specific hoards and released to the market by the relevant authorities, would result in criminal charges.

Nor do I believe for one moment that Americans are losing the right to collect ancient coins, or that there's a serious risk that any coins purchased at the recent Leu auctions will be confiscated.

Furthermore, your continuing "Gestapo" references seriously annoy me, to put it mildly. They make you sound deranged. Do you know anything about the real Gestapo? Or just the "8th Reichstag looting"? (I'm still waiting for an explanation of that one!) Tell me, do you think that if Beale had been arrested by the real Gestapo, he would have been released on his own recognizance by a judge (Roland Freisler, perhaps? Look him up), and permitted to fly home to Great Britain? I am, as politely as I can, asking you to stop making such references and all other similar references.

[JimBranson]

37 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I assume you're joking, but I think someone at Roma (Richard, is that you?) has to be reading this thread. It's too much of a coincidence otherwise that Roma made the correction. And I also think this suggests that their cataloguers don't always bother actually looking at descriptions in previous auctions, even when they list those auctions. 

AmazingAncient is a brand new user who joins the forum after this specific thread is created. Their very first comment follows the line of “I am not Richard Beale but” … and then they become the most prolific Beale supporter on the forum.

We all suspect and know who AmazingAncient really is. Mr Beale, either defend yourself publicly or do not do so at all. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by JimBranson

[DonnaML]

5 hours ago, Limes said:

 transparency is an important topic. I think that issues regarding the source of coins and questions about their legality are linked with being transparent as a seller. While I do believe it may be very difficult, or even impossible, to do this for all ancient coins, the lack of transparency in the market is apparent, and a lack of transparency may invite abuse.

I would love it if dealers disclosed whatever they knew about the provenances of the ancient coins they sell, whether at retail or at auction. But two very major obstacles are (1) the desire for privacy of coins' previous owners when those owners are collectors themselves or their heirs, and don't want anyone (perhaps including the taxing authorities!) to know that they've made money or how much; and (2) the reluctance of retail dealers in particular to disclose auction provenances, especially if recent, because they don't want potential customers to look up the size of their markup.

On rare occasions, I've had retail dealers disclose the immediate provenance of a coin to me after I've bought it. But not very often. 

So many provenances are lost this way, but I don't know how to solve these issues. What does disappoint me is when I'm told by a dealer that their source supposedly kept no record of their own original purchase of a coin.  That happens with ancient artifacts as well. Which, if true, I don't understand. I am very far from being the most well-organized person I know -- I truly hate paperwork! -- but I've kept all the receipts and other records of every single antiquities purchase I've made, and most coin purchases, since 1982. Why would I ever have thrown them out?

Edited March 14, 2023 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

6 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

AmazingAncient is a brand new user who joins the forum after this specific thread is created. Their very first comment follows the line of “I am not Richard Beale but” … and then they become the most prolific Beale supporter on the forum.

We all suspect and know who AmazingAncient really is. Mr Beale, either defend yourself publicly or do not do so at all. 

No, I doubt it. Whatever Richard Beale's character may be, he never comes across as being over the top, unless it's an act! Nor as an American, which this poster appears to be.

[Ryro]

7 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

No, I doubt it. Whatever Richard Beale's character may be, he never comes across as being over the top, unless it's an act! Nor as an American, which this poster appears to be.

Agreed. When Beale would communicate on the old site he never came off as a troll just trying to press buttons. AA does. Or at least like he is not well informed. Beale is. 

[kirispupis]

14 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

AmazingAncient is a brand new user who joins the forum after this specific thread is created. Their very first comment follows the line of “I am not Richard Beale but” … and then they become the most prolific Beale supporter on the forum.

We all suspect and know who AmazingAncient really is. Mr Beale, either defend yourself publicly or do not do so at all. 

I doubt he's Mr Beale, though I am curious where AmazingAncient's IP is from. 

One caution I'd like to add is to stick to the details of the case and not make it personal against Mr Beale. Some years ago, one of my friends did a very stupid thing and defrauded the government. He was arrested and the case made the national news. I do not condone what he did, but his entire life was hung out to dry. There were people speculating on his travels and his marriage. Random people showed up at his door. He couldn't go anywhere because people would curse at him. Every organization he was a member of threw him out.

He did do jail time, which he deserved, but the social torment was so great that he attempted suicide, though he was found and airlifted to a hospital in time. 

This discussion has been mostly civil, but I just thought I'd give a warning. I admit that it can be fun speculating over details involving the case, but we should leave Mr. Beale himself alone.

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

our resident law expert Donna. Donna, and others, have cautioned against assuming the affidavit and warrant documents contains all the evidence that the State has against the defendants. Again, we do not know whether they have actual proof the coins were stolen or not.

Thanks for the kind words, @Kaleun96, and to @David Atherton and @filolif as well. But I do want to emphasize that I am very much not speaking as or purporting to be an expert on any of the legal topics discussed in this thread. I have no particular knowledge of cultural heritage laws or memoranda of understanding other than what I've read as a collector of coins and antiquities, and I never practiced any kind of criminal law. Nor have I done any research on criminal law issues for this thread, or spoken to friends who have practiced criminal law (either as prosecutors or defense counsel). Rather, I'm using only what I would consider common sense, and my general knowledge of legal principles and procedures based on the 37 years I spent in civil litigation practice in New York City before I retired a few years ago. At least some of which has stuck in my head despite my rapidly advancing age -- I'll be 70 in a few years! -- and, I'm sure, declining reasoning skills.

[Julius Germanicus]

OK, I am late to the party and maybe I have missed out on something... but nobody on the past 14 pages seems to have drawn the conclusion yet that "!nformant 2" is likely identical to "Owner 1" and therefore none other than the Baron Dominique de Chambrier HIMSELF, who is alive and well as far as I know and the only person who could PROVE Richard Beale wrong.

[Tetradogma]

7 hours ago, Troyden said:

Has Roma made any official statement regarding the situation?

I'm also perplexed by this - no mention of the situation on any of their Facebook or Instagram accounts, and no ones mentioned anything in the comments of those accounts (although admittedly comments can be deleted by account owner if deemed inappropriate.) Irrespective, from a PR point of view it's a really bad strategy to just not address this, this story has already gone all around the numismatic community, you can't just stick your head in the sand. 

[Heliodromus]

50 minutes ago, Julius Germanicus said:

Baron Dominique de Chambrier HIMSELF, who is alive and well as far as I know

Seems quite possible he's still alive. Can't find anything other than this family tree at the moment, but his parents were born c.1920, so if he was born when his parents were age 20-30 then Baron Dominique would be 70-80 now.

https://gw.geneanet.org/olivierauthier?lang=en&pz=celine+madeleine+marcelle&nz=authier&p=dominique&n=de+chambrier

Even if he's not alive, he apparently had two kids by his 2nd wife who presumably are, so in any case not the smartest fake provenance to suggest!

[Ryro]

1 hour ago, Heliodromus said:

Seems quite possible he's still alive. Can't find anything other than this family tree at the moment, but his parents were born c.1920, so if he was born when his parents were age 20-30 then Baron Dominique would be 70-80 now.

https://gw.geneanet.org/olivierauthier?lang=en&pz=celine+madeleine+marcelle&nz=authier&p=dominique&n=de+chambrier

Even if he's not alive, he apparently had two kids by his 2nd wife who presumably are, so in any case not the smartest fake provenance to suggest!

I'm sending this dude my entire collection, with a return as soon as delivered.

The Ryro collection will be the new Roma...Ryma! ... but with the real provenance 😜

[Hrefn]

Anyone who wishes to add the coveted and illustrious provenance of the ****HREFN COLLECTION**** to coins in their collection is welcome to transport their coins to my obscure corner of the world.  I will glance briefly at them and take possession of them.  I will pay you $1 per coin, and then sell them back to you for the same price.  Thereafter, your coins will forever be ex ****HREFN COLLECTION*****.   This provenance is suitable for emblazoning on the slabs of TPGS’s and may protect your treasures from overzealous government officials.  

Don’t pay $100,000 for a dubious provenance when you can get a perfectly good dubious provenance for free.  Patronize the services of the ****HREFN COLLECTION**** today.   

[John Conduitt]

I'll change my name (for the princely sum of £42.44) to Baron Dominique de Chambrier, and provide provenance services for a mere $50k a pop.

[Hrefn]

4 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I'll change my name (for the princely sum of £42.44) to Baron Dominique de Chambrier, and provide provenance services for a mere $50k a pop.

I had hoped to dominate the manufactured provenance industry, but I have to bow to your superior scheme.  

[AmazedAncient]

18 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Furthermore, your continuing "Gestapo" references seriously annoy me, to put it mildly. They make you sound deranged. Do you know anything about the real Gestapo? Or just the "8th Reichstag looting"? (I'm still waiting for an explanation of that one!) Tell me, do you think that if Beale had been arrested by the real Gestapo, he would have been released on his own recognizance by a judge (Roland Freisler, perhaps? Look him up), and permitted to fly home to Great Britain? I am, as politely as I can, asking you to stop making such references and all other similar references.

I share your disgust for the word, more than you could imagine.

 

"The Hunted Children" Dr. D. A. Lowrie

 

Back to this thread. The metaphor was used to compare many decades of known & documented abusive activities, exceeding what is necessary or reasonable to carry out lawful duties by enforcement agencies in the United States. This country's enforcement powers & actions are an example that has far reaching implications. New restrictive laws, seizures, etc, on certain Americans or individuals or institutions increases the likelihood of future abuses.

 

There are many concerns & implications regarding this case, extending far beyond coins, collecting and museum  artifacts. One of my earliest concerns was the possibility of Mr. Beale speaking to NY law enforcement without an Attorney present.

 

From an Attorney:

"One should never talk to the police without first consulting an Attorney. Enforcement Authorities & Police Officers are highly trained to obtain confessions, coerce admissions and probe for inconsistencies. If you are innocent, they will use any and all inconsistencies in your statements as evidence of possible guilt, potential fraud or anything else."

[Hesiod]

23 minutes ago, AmazedAncient said:

One of my earliest concerns was the possibility of Mr. Beale speaking to NY law enforcement without an Attorney present.

Based on the complaint, it sounds like Mr. Beale did exactly this

[Bailathacl]

Appropriate that a scandal within the ancient coin arena should involve this much hubris, I suppose.  

[Kaleun96]

Not much new info here but CoinsWeekly has published an article on the topic:

https://coinsweekly.com/new-york-prosecutor-to-press-charges-against-richard-beale-roma-numismatics/

The one new bit of info to me was the suspension of Vecchi's IAPN membership pending the outcome of the case, the details of which can be found here:

https://iapn-coins.org/iapn-latest-news-2/

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said:

Not much new info here but CoinsWeekly has published an article on the topic:

https://coinsweekly.com/new-york-prosecutor-to-press-charges-against-richard-beale-roma-numismatics/

The one new bit of info to me was the suspension of Vecchi's IAPN membership pending the outcome of the case, the details of which can be found here:

https://iapn-coins.org/iapn-latest-news-2/

Thanks for linking to these. What I find interesting are the charges. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following is what he's accused of in layman's terms.

Grand Larceny in the First and Second Degree - Beale is accused of stealing ancient artifacts

Criminal Possession of Stolen Property - Beale is accused of knowing that the Gaza dekadrachms were stolen when he sold them

Conspiracy in the Fourth Degree - Beale is accused of conspiring with Vecchio to fake the provenance of the coin

Scheme to Defraud in the First Degree - Beale is accused of selling the Eid Mar and Naxos coin with a falsified provenance, which enabled the coins to receive more at auction

 

The first (Grand Larceny) is what I'm most curious about. Facts related to the other three have already been mentioned, but I haven't read anything that alludes Beale was directly involved in the theft, though it may simply be that I don't properly understand the legal term.

[Deinomenid]

10 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Grand Larceny

It's the main  charge against  him.  Facts about it aren't too apparent  but  it's the prosecutor's  top charge.

[Deinomenid]

Bottom (for some reason) of this charge sheet.

Here

Were he to be guilty in the first degree the sentencing can be pretty grim.

 

[DonnaML]

5 hours ago, Hesiod said:

Based on the complaint, it sounds like Mr. Beale did exactly this

That would not have been wise. Presumably he could have contacted the UK consulate to recommend an attorney. In fact, he must already have legal counsel in New York, albeit not someone specializing in criminal matters, if Roma had been about to announce the opening of an office here.

Edited March 15, 2023 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

5 hours ago, AmazedAncient said:

I share your disgust for the word, more than you could imagine.

 

"The Hunted Children" Dr. D. A. Lowrie

That's very unlikely. Are you suggesting that you have some personal or family connection to Lowrie's war relief work? 

[DonnaML]

I'm curious: I'm obviously not asking for details, but is there anyone who's planning to bid (or has already placed bids) in tomorrow's Roma auction, the first one since all of this became public? I see no reason, practical or otherwise, to refrain from doing so at this stage of events, so I've already bid on a couple of coins.