Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[idesofmarch01]

14 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Yes, of course we already knew that the government alleged that the coins were stolen. Otherwise Beale wouldn't have been charged with the crimes he was charged with! As I'm sure you're aware, the government doesn't have to "prove" anything at this stage. That's the entire purpose of the trial. They simply have to show enough facts to convince a judge that there's "reasonable cause" sufficient to issue a search warrant. And the affidavit showing such facts doesn't get released to the public, as much as the public may be curious as to what it says.

So let me ask a simple question: can the ADA simply assert that the coins are stolen [Edit: based on lack of provenance], or does he need to have reasonable facts to support his assertion?  If it's the latter, than it would appear that those facts aren't being included in the filing but apparently have been presented to the judge.

Edited March 13, 2023 by idesofmarch01

[Deinomenid]

Minor  point,  but  for those  on this thread who keep suggesting this is  just a bit of  a hiccup and no need to worry,  Floreat Roma etc,  now you have the proof the coin was seized the purchaser of  that  coin is going to be kindly  asking for his/her money back. (And probably quite a lot more than  that as a raid  by the police and accusation  of owning stolen goods might be interpreted as  having a broader impact on the  poor soul in question.)

Roma's balance sheet  doesn't  have the funds. I don't see why that's  not a concern.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kapphnwn]

In response to @Heliodromus No at the time that I was doing business with the site, it was run by John Lavender. 

[ominus1]

[Heliodromus]

4 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Roma's balance sheet  doesn't  have the funds. I don't see why that's  not a concern.

Well, they generate considerable cash flow, and anyways wouldn't the Eid Mar/etc sales proceeds have gone to the consignor (Beale).

If the money isn't readily available, then it's in the best interest of the buyer to accept a payment plan and not do anything (even if they could) that might jeopardize Roma, since that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

[Heliodromus]

9 minutes ago, kapphnwn said:

In response to @Heliodromus No at the time that I was doing business with the site, it was run by John Lavender. 

OK, but same principle anyways - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with these anonymous collection names, and no reason to suspect anyone who appears 100% above board to be trying to hide anything.

The difference with Roma is that they're destroying trust in themselves, and there's anyway a difference between "From private English collection" referring to a coin that's just been flipped from eBay, and "From Maple Leaf collection" where it's referring to an actual genuine collection!

 

[DonnaML]

25 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said:

So let me ask a simple question: can the ADA simply assert that the coins are stolen [Edit: based on lack of provenance], or does he need to have reasonable facts to support his assertion?  If it's the latter, than it would appear that those facts aren't being included in the filing but apparently have been presented to the judge.

We can't possibly know the answer now, but will eventually. But it's hardly unusual for the prosecution's affidavit to the judge to include a great deal of information not disclosed to the public. I would be surprised if it turns out that  the mere fact of even an admittedly phony provenance, standing alone -- even though that's more than just a lack of provenance -- sufficed to convince the judge that there's reasonable cause to believe the coin is stolen property, justifying its seizure from the buyer. 

After all, a phony provenance by itself reasonably suggests that the coin was illegally exported from its country of origin, and/or illegally imported into the USA, but it's still possible that it wasn't actually "stolen" in the sense of an illegal excavation, but was legitimately owned by somebody in that country.

Edited March 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[kirispupis]

26 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

We can't possibly know the answer now, but will eventually. But it's hardly unusual for the prosecution's affidavit to the judge to include a great deal of information not disclosed to the public. I would be surprised if it turns out that  the mere fact of even an admittedly phony provenance, standing alone -- even though that's more than just a lack of provenance -- sufficed to convince the judge that there's reasonable cause to believe the coin is stolen property, justifying its seizure from the buyer. 

After all, a phony provenance by itself reasonably suggests that the coin was illegally exported from its country of origin, and/or illegally imported into the USA, but it's still possible that it wasn't actually "stolen" in the sense of an illegal excavation, but was legitimately owned by somebody in that country.

That's what I was getting at in my previous post. If I were the buyer and the government showed up to confiscate my $4M coin, I'd be pretty upset. I may be angry that Beale falsified the provenance and I therefore may have paid too much, but the settling of that account would be between me and Roma.

For the government to come to my house and demand the coin, the false provenance wouldn't be sufficient. I would want hard data proving that the coin in fact was stolen. I also certainly wouldn't trust the government to truly keep the coin in escrow until it was unequivocally proven as stolen property. 

[DonnaML]

7 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

That's what I was getting at in my previous post. If I were the buyer and the government showed up to confiscate my $4M coin, I'd be pretty upset. I may be angry that Beale falsified the provenance and I therefore may have paid too much, but the settling of that account would be between me and Roma.

For the government to come to my house and demand the coin, the false provenance wouldn't be sufficient. I would want hard data proving that the coin in fact was stolen. I also certainly wouldn't trust the government to truly keep the coin in escrow until it was unequivocally proven as stolen property. 

Frankly, it doesn't  matter what you'd want! Even if the coin was merely illegally exported or imported, you don't have the right to keep it. Your claim is against Roma and/or Beale and Vecchi.

Edited March 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[idesofmarch01]

4 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

For the government to come to my house and demand the coin, the false provenance wouldn't be sufficient. I would want hard data proving that the coin in fact was stolen. I also certainly wouldn't trust the government to truly keep the coin in escrow until it was unequivocally proven as stolen property. 

This is precisely the issue that's been bothering me since I learned about the ADA's legal filing against Beale.  Until I learn more about the theft/stolen property evidence in this case, it's hard for me to shake off this discomfort.  Personally, I don't think that lack of provenance is reasonable evidence on which to base the accusation of theft.  Neither do I think that knowingly seeking a fraudulent provenance proves that the coins were stolen, although it definitely makes me suspicious about their legality.

DISCLAIMER: I generally want to believe that U.S. legal authorities are acting in good faith with sufficient facts and reason to believe their actions are justified.  I also do not have any sympathy for actual theft of antiquities even in countries whose laws I think are unreasonable.

[kirispupis]

11 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Frankly, it doesn't  matter what you'd want! Even if the coin was merely illegally exported or imported, you don't have the right to keep it.

True. If the coin was brought in someone's pocket to the country and not declared, then I could see it. However, if it did go through customs and wasn't confiscated there... Even then, though, if the government can't absolutely prove that it was in fact stolen, then it should just be a matter of filling out the proper import forms, paying whatever duties are necessary, and then the coin would come back to me.

Where I see this as a slippery slope is that the government could claim that any of our coins were 'stolen' because we don't have the paperwork proving that they weren't. Even coins with stated provenance rarely come with documentation proving it (at least in our price ranges). It's in effect being guilty before proven innocent.

The only real difference between the Eid Mar and any of our coins is a bunch of zeros.

Edited March 13, 2023 by kirispupis

[DonnaML]

3 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

True. If the coin was brought in someone's pocket to the country and not declared, then I could see it. However, if it did go through customs and wasn't confiscated there... Even then, though, if the government can't absolutely prove that it was in fact stolen, then it should just be a matter of filling out the proper import forms, paying whatever duties are necessary, and then the coin would come back to me.

Where I see this as a slippery slope is that the government could claim that any of our coins were 'stolen' because we don't have the paperwork proving that they weren't. Even coins with stated provenance rarely come with documentation proving it (at least in our price ranges). It's in effect being guilty before proven innocent.

The only real difference between the Eid Mar and any of our coins is a bunch of zeros.

But at some point, the government will have to prove that the coin was stolen, unless Beale and/or Vecchi admit it as part of some kind of plea bargain. I think you're being unnecessarily suspicious about the prosecution simply sending the coin to another country, out of the court's jurisdiction, before the case comes to trial and/or its ownership is adjudicated. Do you have any idea how much trouble they could get into? Whatever you may think of the US government, we are still not a country in which judges do whatever the government wants. 

[kirispupis]

9 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

But at some point, the government will have to prove that the coin was stolen, unless Beale and/or Vecchi admit it as part of some kind of plea bargain. I think you're being unnecessarily suspicious about the prosecution simply sending the coin to another country, out of the court's jurisdiction, before the case comes to trial and/or its ownership is adjudicated. Do you have any idea how much trouble they could get into? Whatever you may think of the US government, we are still not a country in which judges do whatever the government wants. 

Obviously since you have a legal background, you have far more knowledge on the subject than I. 

However, I do admit that I am suspicious. The Naxos stater has already been repatriated. Was there solid evidence that coin was stolen? The court case against Beale is still ongoing so I'm under the impression that nothing has been proven yet.

[DLTcoins]

21 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

But at some point, the government will have to prove that the coin was stolen, unless Beale and/or Vecchi admit it as part of some kind of plea bargain. I think you're being unnecessarily suspicious about the prosecution simply sending the coin to another country, out of the court's jurisdiction, before the case comes to trial and/or its ownership is adjudicated. Do you have any idea how much trouble they could get into? Whatever you may think of the US government, we are still not a country in which judges do whatever the government wants. 

Repatriation is normally handled by the US State Department, I think. Representatives of the Manhattan DA will almost certainly be present at the photo op, however. 

 

[Heliodromus]

5 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

However, I do admit that I am suspicious. The Naxos stater has already been repatriated. Was there solid evidence that coin was stolen? The court case against Beale is still ongoing so I'm under the impression that nothing has been proven yet.

I wonder if it's conceivable that Beale conceded to the repatriation and associated photo-op as part of plea deal, even without admitting guilt to the theft charges (which do seem bogus based on what's been released) ?

[DonnaML]

36 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

Obviously since you have a legal background, you have far more knowledge on the subject than I. 

However, I do admit that I am suspicious. The Naxos stater has already been repatriated. Was there solid evidence that coin was stolen? The court case against Beale is still ongoing so I'm under the impression that nothing has been proven yet.

I just haven't paid sufficient attention to any of the details concerning the Naxos stater to be able to answer your question. Was that coin seized from a buyer as well?

[kirispupis]

Just now, DonnaML said:

I just haven't paid sufficient attention to any of the details concerning the Naxos stater to be able to answer your question. Was that coin seized from a buyer as well?

No. As I understand it was seized in customs. 

Still, as a buyer, I would understand the government holding onto it, but I'd be upset that they repatriated it unless there was solid proof it was stolen, and as has already been mentioned, proving that the provenance is false is not sufficient to prove that it was stolen.

[arnoldoe]

Hammer price of the EID mar coin 2.7 Million GBP

I wonder how much the person who actually dug it up made from selling it.

[Roerbakmix]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Did they include the real provenance when they sold it previously?

Yes… it is very odd, but they seem to have changed the old listing as well. I’m 100% sure it listed my provenance, which I carefully tracked down.

[DLTcoins]

1 hour ago, arnoldoe said:

Hammer price of the EID mar coin 2.7 Million GBP

I wonder how much the person who actually dug it up made from selling it.

I can't speak for the Eid Mar but there is a BBC video interview with the Palestinian fisherman who found the Gaza Hoard (in Arabic with English subtitles). He says he sold the coins for 50 Israeli shekels ($15) each "to buy food and goods for my family", a bit less than melt value. A sad story all around.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1627626/lifestyle

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by DLTcoins

[AmazedAncient]

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

If I were the buyer and the government showed up to confiscate my $4M coin, I'd be pretty upset.

For the government to come to my house and demand the coin, the false provenance wouldn't be sufficient. I would want hard data proving that the coin in fact was stolen.

Not sure about anyone else, but this is sounding (no exaggeration) an awful lot like U.S. "looting" of American property, similar to the horrible 8th Reichstag looting that began in 1933 Germany, i.e. newly inacted federal laws, secretive classified seizures, no concrete evidence, gung-ho agents,  many covert collaborators and proud displays of seized objects.

By 1936, newly inacted German laws passed by the government gave Gestapo agents carte blanche to seize any and all artifacts with minimal judicial review - in effect, putting its enforcing agents above the law. However, unlike the growing & recent U.S. artifact seizure cases, Germany was not acting on behalf of FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS.

This incident may discourage or affect a few U.S. customers, but Roma has a very, very large (zero restrictions) clientele in Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East and South America. I wonder what they all think of this NYC/USA fiasco?

[AmazedAncient]

3 hours ago, kirispupis said:

If I were the buyer and the government showed up to confiscate my $4M coin, I'd be pretty upset.

For the government to come to my house and demand the coin, the false provenance wouldn't be sufficient. I would want hard data proving that the coin in fact was stolen.

Not sure about anyone else, but this is sounding (no exaggeration) an awful lot like U.S. "looting" of American property, similar to the horrible 8th Reichstag looting that began in 1933 Germany, i.e. newly inacted federal laws, secretive classified seizures, no concrete evidence, gung-ho agents,  many covert collaborators and proud displays of seized objects.

By 1936, newly inacted German laws passed by the government gave Gestapo agents carte blanche to seize any and all artifacts with minimal judicial review - in effect, putting its enforcing agents above the law. However, unlike the growing & recent U.S. artifact seizure cases, Germany was not acting on behalf of FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS.

This incident may discourage or affect a few U.S. customers, but Roma has a very, very large (zero restrictions) clientele in Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East and South America. I wonder what they all think of this NYC/USA fiasco?

[DLTcoins]

30 minutes ago, AmazedAncient said:

This incident may discourage or affect a few U.S. customers, but Roma has a very, very large (zero restrictions) clientele in Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East and South America. I wonder what they all think of this NYC/USA fiasco?

They probably think it sounds a lot like what is happening in their own countries.

https://www.interpol.int/en/News-and-Events/News/2022/52-arrests-in-operation-across-28-countries-targeting-trafficking-in-cultural-goods

[DonnaML]

34 minutes ago, AmazedAncient said:

Not sure about anyone else, but this is sounding (no exaggeration) an awful lot like U.S. "looting" of American property, similar to the horrible 8th Reichstag looting that began in 1933 Germany, i.e. newly inacted federal laws, secretive classified seizures, no concrete evidence, gung-ho agents,  many covert collaborators and proud displays of seized objects.

By 1936, newly inacted German laws passed by the government gave Gestapo agents carte blanche to seize any and all artifacts with minimal judicial review - in effect, putting its enforcing agents above the law. However, unlike the growing & recent U.S. artifact seizure cases, Germany was not acting on behalf of FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS.

This incident may discourage or affect a few U.S. customers, but Roma has a very, very large (zero restrictions) clientele in Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East and South America. I wonder what they all think of this NYC/USA fiasco?

The "8th Reichstag looting" (whatever that is)? The Gestapo? "Classified" seizures? I didn't think anyone would actually go in the direction of Godwin's Law, but here we are. And if you think most other countries have "zero restrictions," you're out of your mind.

Edited March 14, 2023 by DonnaML

[David Atherton]

I'm amazed(Ancient) at the gaslighting certain folks are doing to justify criminal behaviour.

And kudos to Donna, you're a beacon of rationality in a very polarised topic!