Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[El Cazador]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I'm curious: I'm obviously not asking for details, but is there anyone who's planning to bid (or has already placed bids) in tomorrow's Roma auction, the first one since all of this became public? I see no reason, practical or otherwise, to refrain from doing so at this stage of events, so I've already bid on a couple of coins.

I placed bids on a few coins, but already was outbid on all- so all set here

Edited March 16, 2023 by El Cazador

[Bailathacl]

I plan to bid, cautiously, on two items. Both low end.  And those will be conservative bid amounts.  Curious if competition for items will be down generally. Also curious to see how straightforward the customs clearance process thru New York will be going forward. 

[Julius Germanicus]

I have bought several coins from Roma in the past and cannot complain. I especially like their little blue presentation boxes the coins come in.

I didn´t find anything interesting for me this time so I didn´t bid, but see many coins "from the collection of Z.P., Austria" again. After having bought my Aquilia Severa Sestertius with that provenance from Roma a couple of years ago, I managed to talk to Z.P. himself and he confirmed his pre-ownership but couldn´t remember where or when he had acquired the coin. The other coins I bought from Roma came without provenance but I was always happy with the quality and all of them were certified genuine by third parties.

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Julius Germanicus

[Mucius Scaevola]

38 minutes ago, Julius Germanicus said:

I have bought several coins from Roma in the past and cannot complain. I especially like their little blue presentation boxes the coins come in.

I didn´t find anything interesting for me this time so I didn´t bid, but see many coins "from the collection of Z.P., Austria" again. After having bought my Aquilia Severa Sestertius with that provenance from Roma a couple of years ago, I managed to talk to Z.P. himself and he confirmed his pre-ownership but couldn´t remember where or when he had acquired the coin. The other coins I bought from Roma came without provenance but I was always happy with the quality and all of them were certified genuine by third parties.

 

At the end Zeno Pop is a dealer, that's partly the reason why there are always so many coins of him in the auctions.

[IanG]

There has been a lot of comment in this thread about how this case has highlighted the increasing importance of provenance and how that might affect us in the future. Should we as collectors investigate provenance further when buying? Will a lack of provenance affect our ability to sell? I don't think that we should be overly worried. I take comfort from the Cultural Assets Protection Act that was passed by the German Parliament in 2016. I say this for two reasons. First, it is, as far as I am aware, the only root and branch revision of cultural property legislation that has been carried out by a major country in recent times and it was the subject of intensive debate in Parliament. Second, the German Government is considered quite progressive insofar as cultural property is concerned; some of you may remember that when the bill was going through parliament various petitions were flying about numismatic forums because of the concern that if the law was harsh other countries, particularly European countries, were likely to follow where the Germans led. Indeed, the general tenor of the Act is quite restrictive and other non-coin collecting communities have voiced serious concerns about it. The big thing from our perspective is that the German Parliament did recognise coins as a special case.

It specifically stated that the new law required no unbroken evidence of origin; it pointed out that in most cases people could not reasonably be expected to remember the details of acquiring coins after some time; and it stated that private coin collectors are not required to keep records. And as many of you will know Parliament also recognised the difference between common, low-value coins and rare, high-value coins and set a threshold of 2,500 EUR. Under that both sellers and buyers must not knowingly acquire coins that are lost, unlawfully imported or illegally exported (or do so in suspicious circumstances). It would seem that this duty of care will in other than the most extraordinary cases be satisfied by buying from a reputable dealer or auction house. For coins over 2,500 EUR coin dealers are expected to exercise a higher duty of care and look into provenance as reasonably required and keep records for 30 years.

The point that I am making here is that when a nation generally considered quite progressive on cultural property issues has looked into this matter in detail it has given coins special status and come up with a law that is, to me at least, a fair compromise. That gives me hope that we are not inevitably drifting towards a future that is unreasonable towards collectors.

 

[velarfricative]

1 hour ago, IanG said:

Should we as collectors investigate provenance further when buying?

Do people not do this already? I pretty much always look for provenance, it's a good way to check if you overpaid/got a good deal on a coin if it sold recently, and if it's an older provenance you might be lucky enough to have your coin published somewhere.

Edited March 16, 2023 by velarfricative

[Steppenfool]

The bidding for Roman Imperials looks about normal for the Roma E-Sale occuring today.

[kirispupis]

Doesn't appear they have been affected at all by the news.

I had two primary targets today. One went higher than I can stomach, while the other I won but had to pay dearly. It's for my top collection and is one of eight (now seven) coins I'm after, and the first of any of them to appear at auction this year.

I put low bids on several other coins and lost all but one of them. I'm pretty happy with the one, though. As usual, there will be no 'snacks' at this auction. That one coin did enough damage.

I'm not sure if someone with more funds has decided to collect the exact same coins as I, but it seems with every coin I pursue on Roma that I either a) lose or b) pay too much. I've therefore limited them to only high priorities.

[Deinomenid]

I bid on a few, and prices seemed about usual in the fairly limited selection they had  in  my little niches. I thought there would be very low risk  of an "event"  at this stage especially with a major auction from them  imminent.  

[Harry G]

I've bid on a few and only won one so far.

I'm gutted - I missed the bidding of a coin that I really wanted by about 15 minutes (the fantastic coin in lot 1128). It only went for £90 and I would've gone up to £250 on it.

If anyone won it and wants to make a quick £120 or so by selling it to me let me know 🥲

Edited March 16, 2023 by Harry G

[akeady]

I got trapped in a 6-hr design review and missed bidding.

The RR lots seemed.low yesterday.

ATB,

Aidan.

[DonnaML]

I bid on three coins in amounts that I thought were a little bit higher than anyone else would be likely to bid, and was fortunate to win all three: the Gallienus Zoo Series boar coin (the best example I've ever seen of that comparatively rare type) by one bidding increment, even though I had to spend more than I would have preferred, and two of the Probus coins from our own "Polish connoisseur" -- in both cases, by a couple of increments. So I'm pleased with the results. I would be surprised if the shipment receives any extra scrutiny from U.S. Customs, since these are not what anyone would call "high end" items, but of course one never knows.

I don't think anyone who's already consigned coins to Roma -- especially if they were auctioned today -- should be concerned about receiving their money. But if I were thinking of selling all or part of my collection and trying to decide where to place the consignment, Roma would probably be the last place I'd choose right now, given the delay of some months between consignment and auction. Who knows what might happen  in the interim?

[Ursus]

6 hours ago, IanG said:

Should we as collectors investigate provenance further when buying? Will a lack of provenance affect our ability to sell?

I think the best answer to these questions is "it depends."

For coins that cost less than a nice dinner, I would assume that most authorities as well as other collectors (with the notable exception of most museums) will continue to accept an auction ticket or an invoice from a reputable dealer as enough provenance to give proof of legal purchase and ownership. (The emphasis is on "reputable.") An old provenance will noneteheless often raise the market value of a coin, particularly in cases where the previous owner adds further historical interest.

Different rules apply to extremely high-value and historically important coins such as the Eid Mar aureus discussed in this thread. A long chain of provenance is important here, and will probably continue to become more important. This pretty much resembles the situation in other markets for art and collectibles. Exceptional and expensive pieces usually come under close scrutiny – and probably for good reason.

 

7 hours ago, IanG said:

The point that I am making here is that when a nation generally considered quite progressive on cultural property issues has looked into this matter in detail it has given coins special status and come up with a law that is, to me at least, a fair compromise.

I agree. The German cultural property law is a good compromise.

[John Conduitt]

36 minutes ago, Ursus said:

I think the best answer to these questions is "it depends."

For coins that cost less than a nice dinner, I would assume that most authorities as well as other collectors (with the notable exception of most museums) will continue to accept an auction ticket or an invoice from a reputable dealer as enough provenance to give proof of legal purchase and ownership. (The emphasis is on "reputable.") An old provenance will noneteheless often raise the market value of a coin, particularly in cases where the previous owner adds further historical interest.

Different rules apply to extremely high-value and historically important coins such as the Eid Mar aureus discussed in this thread. A long chain of provenance is important here, and will probably continue to become more important. This pretty much resembles the situation in other markets for art and collectibles. Exceptional and expensive pieces usually come under close scrutiny – and probably for good reason.

 

I agree. The German cultural property law is a good compromise.

I don't know how they'd judge reputable auction houses. Not very long ago, Roma would've been considered reputable. Is it now?

I imagine the only reason lower value coins won't get caught up in this is because of the admin. Each country would need a huge new department for evaluating provenances. Price is not necessarily related to historical value, so having a cut off based on price is clumsy, but it ensures any interventions are worth their while.

[Rand]

What would happen to coins without provenances under German rules?

• Must remain with the owner and cannot be sold?
• Confiscated to a national museum?
• Sent to the vaults of Greek, Turkish, Italian museums?
• Other arrangements?

 

I won two coins from Roma today, the normal price. Included a coin I had been looking for years, a die link for the solidi of Zeno and Anastasius, a useful dating anchor for the series and arguably the last Roman coin.

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, Rand said:

What would happen to coins without provenances under German rules?

• Must remain with the owner and cannot be sold?
• Confiscated to a national museum?
• Sent to the vaults of Greek, Turkish, Italian museums?
• Other arrangements?

 

This is a good question. With a threshold of EUR2500, the museums will be full of common solidi and Attica owls with more of the crest showing.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

32 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

This is a good question. With a threshold of EUR2500, the museums will be full of common solidi and Attica owls with more of the crest showing.

If you are paying 2500 for normal solidii and athenian tetradrachms, you have bigger problems 

[John Conduitt]

13 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

If you are paying 2500 for normal solidii and athenian tetradrachms, you have bigger problems 

A lot of people have spent EUR2000-6000 on Attica owls before commission just in the last few months. There are plenty of solidi over EUR2000 too - nice examples, but still not rare.

Edited March 16, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Severus Alexander]

4 hours ago, Harry G said:

I've bid on a few and only won one so far.

I'm gutted - I missed the bidding of a coin that I really wanted by about 15 minutes (the fantastic coin in lot 1128). It only went for £90 and I would've gone up to £250 on it.

If anyone won it and wants to make a quick £120 or so by selling it to me let me know 🥲

I feel your pain! (Actually, not nearly as much, probably, since I'm not a Gallienus guy.) I bid it up with a 90 gbp bid in the last few seconds, thinking there was no way I'd get it that ridiculously cheap. Then I saw I had – amazingly enough – tied the max bid... scrambled to bid 95 and missed by a few microseconds! 😫

[Tejas]

12 hours ago, DonnaML said:

the Gallienus Zoo Series boar coin (the best example I've ever seen of that comparatively rare type) by one bidding increment

I had this coin on my list, but didn't bid after winning more than expected of preceeding lots. The boar coin is fantastic - congratulations on winning this one.

[Ursus]

13 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

I don't know how they'd judge reputable auction houses. Not very long ago, Roma would've been considered reputable. Is it now?

In Germany, for example, the association of coin dealers has published some legal guidelines on the new cultural property law, see here. If you as a collector can reasonably assume that a seller fulfills the obligations outlined in them, for example because of their standing in the coin trade or because they are a member of a professional association vouching for them, you are not obliged or expected to do further research into the provenance of a coin you buy from them. This is what I mean by "reputable."

If, on the other hand, some anonymous figure offers you a rare coin for an incredibly low price, asks for cash payment and does not want to give you a receipt, you are in a different situation. It would be hard to convince the authorities that you had to assume that this deal was legal without asking any further questions.

Roma is a special case. Personally, I wouldn't buy from them after the arrest, and I also wouldn't know how to argue that I was able to do so without having suspicions. In the end, we now have to suppose that at least some of the high-end coins sold by Roma were sourced illegally.

13 hours ago, Rand said:

What would happen to coins without provenances under German rules?

It is important to note that the German cultural property law does not require all coins worth more than 2500€ to have a full chain of provenance dating back decades in order to be traded legally. In cases of common coins, establishing a "negative provenance" (there is no reason to suppose that the coin was stolen, looted, or smuggled) together with a "group provenance" (the type is listed in a catalogue or other reference work) is typically sufficient.

The German authorities thus do not arbitrarily seize valuable coins without provenance. In cases were coins have been seized in accordance with the cultural property law, these were evidently looted, illegally imported, or stolen.

What the cultural property law does, though, is to require coin dealers to keep records and fulfill some "duties of professional diligence" (professionelle Sorgfaltspflichten). For coins worth more than €2500, the aforementioned guidelines name the following duties:

Quote

1. establish the name and address of the seller, consignor, buyer, or client

2. write a description or take a picture that allows to identify the cultural artifact [i.e. the coin]

3. check the provenance of the cultural artifact ["provenance" in this context means both the geographic origin of the coin and, if possible to establish, prior owners]

4. check [if provided] the documents that prove the legal import and export of the cultural artifact

5. check if there are any special restrictions on import, export or trade

6. check if the cultural artifact is listed in publicly accessible registers or databases

7. get a written or electronic statement from the seller or consignor that explains that they are legally authorized to sell the cultural artifact

In practice, the guidelines therefore recommend dealers to keep a record for coins worth more than 2500€. This record establishes that it is legal to sell and buy the coin and should contain the following information:

Quote

1. name and address of the seller (including a copy of an ID)

2. negative search results in Lost Coin Archive and the Interpol database

3. no indicators for an illegal excavation

4. no indicators for illegal export or import

5. all provided documents on import and export were checked and are correct

6. restrictions and bans on import or export were checked and do not apply

7. list of known provenances

For coins worth less than 2500€, dealers do not have to stick to the same standard of professional diligence but only have to fulfill "common duties of diligence" (allgemeine Sorgfaltspflichten). These usually do not require intensive provenance research. In short, it is in most cases sufficient to show with "reasonable effort" (zumutbarer Aufwand) that there are no red flags for the coin being smuggled, illegally excavated, or stolen. The same standard applies to collectors and private sellers for all coins. In my opinion, this is fair.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Ursus

[Sol_Invictus]

3 hours ago, Ursus said:

In Germany, for example, the association of coin dealers has published some legal guidelines on the new cultural property law, see here.

If only the American approach could be this sensible. Instead even the most common Greek bronze coin needs a provenance extending back 10 years in order to be imported. Similarly for every Chinese cash coin from the Tang dynasty and earlier, or every coin that circulated primarily within Turkey (whatever that means; here the provenance only needs to go back to before June 2021), and so on for a growing list of countries (16 to date). The restrictions seems to only be increasing. I think this is why many people here are concerned that provenances will be required for everything eventually, at least if you want to be able to sell coins to the US.

I think this stems from the general lack of history in America. In my community a house that was built in the early 1900s is considered historic. Having something more than 1000 years old just blows people’s minds. The only place people generally encounter such items are in a museum or a university, so I think people tend to feel like all things that old are rare, extremely valuable, and belong exclusively in those places. The only exception to this would be Native American artifacts, like arrowheads, or extremely old natural items like fossils, which many people have experience encountering on hikes. But even the collection of those has become a touchy subject lately.

[Deinomenid]

@Rand I am fairly sure most museums DO  require extensive provenance proof before accepting donations (which most will then put in a closed drawer anyway!)

I believe there’s a unesco  pre1970 convention cutoff. I’ve read various references to it and see that the Aaron Berk podcasts regularly reference 1969 as an important date, presumably for this. As in coins with pre1970 provenance are supposed to be worth more -according to this argument- because they are acceptable tax write offs -sorry I mean donations.

 

[DLTcoins]

3 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

@Rand I am fairly sure most museums DO  require extensive provenance proof before accepting donations (which most will then put in a closed drawer anyway!)

I believe there’s a unesco  pre1970 convention cutoff. I’ve read various references to it and see that the Aaron Berk podcasts regularly reference 1969 as an important date, presumably for this. As in coins with pre1970 provenance are supposed to be worth more -according to this argument- because they are acceptable tax write offs -sorry I mean donations.

 

Yes. When I studied museology as part of an anthropology major in the 1980s, the 1970 date was already the standard for responsible institutional collecting. My advice regarding museums and donations. If you really want to benefit a museum, sell your collection and donate the proceeds. If what you want instead is a monument to yourself, sell your collection and buy a nice monument.

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Heliodromus]

8 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

I am fairly sure most museums DO  require extensive provenance proof before accepting donations (which most will then put in a closed drawer anyway!)

Until they decide they want to raise funds for a new cafeteria and decide to "deacquisition" your donated collection.