DLTcoins Posted March 18 · Member Share Posted March 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, Deinomenid said: @Rand I am fairly sure most museums DO require extensive provenance proof before accepting donations (which most will then put in a closed drawer anyway!) I believe there’s a unesco pre1970 convention cutoff. I’ve read various references to it and see that the Aaron Berk podcasts regularly reference 1969 as an important date, presumably for this. As in coins with pre1970 provenance are supposed to be worth more -according to this argument- because they are acceptable tax write offs -sorry I mean donations. Yes. When I studied museology as part of an anthropology major in the 1980s, the 1970 date was already the standard for responsible institutional collecting. My advice regarding museums and donations. If you really want to benefit a museum, sell your collection and donate the proceeds. If what you want instead is a monument to yourself, sell your collection and buy a nice monument. Edited March 18 by DLTcoins 7 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted March 18 · Member Share Posted March 18 8 hours ago, Deinomenid said: I am fairly sure most museums DO require extensive provenance proof before accepting donations (which most will then put in a closed drawer anyway!) Until they decide they want to raise funds for a new cafeteria and decide to "deacquisition" your donated collection. 4 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted Tuesday at 10:21 PM · Member Author Share Posted Tuesday at 10:21 PM Well, looks like it has hit the mainstream media now: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11886091/British-auction-house-boss-arrested-NYC-fraudulent-sale-worlds-expensive-coin.html 3 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisNumiScholar Posted Tuesday at 10:49 PM · Member Share Posted Tuesday at 10:49 PM I am looking at interest with the Richard Beale case. I sold my Ancient coin collection (apart from British Celtic) through Roma a couple of years ago, as I moved to focus on collecting British coinage. Looks like his case is getting reported in the mainstream press here in the UK. They are quoting that he will face up to 25 years in prison, which is astonishing from a UK perspective. I don't know too much about how the US legal system operates, but I don't think he will get that much if he decides to agree to a plea deal if it is offered? But I don't think it looks good for Beale in avoiding some form of jail time. I was reading this article in the New York magazine about Michael Steinhardt, who agreed to a lifetime ban from collecting, without ever being convicted. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/michael-steinhardt-antiquities-stolen-artifacts.html Bogdanos stated that if he could get a unscrupulous dealer jailed, this would according to him finally clean up the antiquitues trade. The problem for Beale is, that he does not have as deep pockets as Steinhardt in employing expensive lawyers to fight this, that is against some very determined prosecutors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted Wednesday at 09:42 PM · Member Author Share Posted Wednesday at 09:42 PM This news might ruffle some feathers, the Eid Mar has been repatriated to Greece: https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-29-antiquities-to-greece/ 2 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idesofmarch01 Posted Wednesday at 09:51 PM · Member Share Posted Wednesday at 09:51 PM 5 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said: This news might ruffle some feathers, the Eid Mar has been repatriated to Greece: https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-29-antiquities-to-greece/ So, fundamentally, it appears that there is convincing evidence that the Eid Mar aureus was illegally removed from Greece sometime in the past and thus is being repatriated back to the Greek government. I can only assume that one or more of the ADA's informants provided this evidence and it was not cited specifically in the complaint against Beale. I wonder if we'll ever know the complete story about this coin's origins and shady provenance? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted Wednesday at 10:14 PM · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted Wednesday at 10:14 PM 22 minutes ago, idesofmarch01 said: So, fundamentally, it appears that there is convincing evidence that the Eid Mar aureus was illegally removed from Greece sometime in the past and thus is being repatriated back to the Greek government. I can only assume that one or more of the ADA's informants provided this evidence and it was not cited specifically in the complaint against Beale. I wonder if we'll ever know the complete story about this coin's origins and shady provenance? Only if Italo Vecchi ever makes a deal to testify, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted Wednesday at 10:44 PM · Supporter Share Posted Wednesday at 10:44 PM 51 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said: This news might ruffle some feathers, the Eid Mar has been repatriated to Greece: https://www.manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-returns-29-antiquities-to-greece/ Quote Greece’s Minister of Culture, Lina Mendoni, said “On behalf of the Hellenic Government, from the bottom of my heart, I would like to congratulate and thank the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office and in particular Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg and Assistant District Attorney Matthew Bogdanos and his associates for their contribution in investigating and eventually repatriating 29 ancient Hellenic antiquities. The close relationship and cooperation that has been built over the last years between Manhattan District Attorney’s Office and the Ministry of Culture and Sports of the Hellenic Republic, guarantees that many more successes will follow”. Not as many successes as would follow if Greece had non-idiotic antiquities laws and followed the UK model instead. Think of all the archeological information that is irretrievably lost through this stupidity, upheld by the U.S. and pursued with particular vim and vigour by New York. From last year: I just wish the media coverage on cases like this would include this perspective. No matter the specifics of the case, it bears repeating. Over and over. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBranson Posted Thursday at 01:19 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 01:19 AM https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/22/arts/design/rare-coin-returned-greece-eid-mar.html 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBranson Posted Thursday at 01:19 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 01:19 AM This story has made the New York times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted Thursday at 01:23 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 01:23 AM (edited) Well, the story didn’t make a dent in today’s bidding activity at Roma… so who cares! At the end of the day- bidding was as robust as always- no bargains and Auction House will certainly recover… Edited Thursday at 01:24 AM by El Cazador 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted Thursday at 03:24 AM · Supporter Share Posted Thursday at 03:24 AM 2 hours ago, JimBranson said: This story has made the New York times Quote Ultimately, the forces who favored the dead Caesar, led by Mark Antony and others, defeated Brutus and his men in October of 42 B.C. at the Second Battle of Philippi, and Brutus and Cassius committed suicide. Methinks Octavian would be rather unhappy with this reporting... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesiod Posted Thursday at 03:47 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 03:47 AM 2 hours ago, El Cazador said: Well, the story didn’t make a dent in today’s bidding activity at Roma… so who cares! At the end of the day- bidding was as robust as always- no bargains and Auction House will certainly recover… The results felt fairly weak to me, personally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted Thursday at 04:10 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 04:10 AM So, apparently there is no moral boycott of Roma? Interesting ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted Thursday at 04:17 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 04:17 AM 29 minutes ago, Hesiod said: The results felt fairly weak to me, personally. Sub - par material was weak, quality- was not 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted Thursday at 04:17 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 04:17 AM 7 minutes ago, David Atherton said: So, apparently there is no moral boycott of Roma? Interesting ... I doubt it… seems like Everyone is over it - that was quick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesiod Posted Thursday at 04:49 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 04:49 AM 32 minutes ago, El Cazador said: Sub - par material was weak, quality- was not Material I was eying wasn't weak, and if it weren't for customs concerns I'd have been happy to blow 10k or so on this sale with the hammers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted Thursday at 04:57 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 04:57 AM (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hesiod said: Material I was eying wasn't weak, and if it weren't for customs concerns I'd have been happy to blow 10k or so on this sale with the hammers There are no customs concerns, the coins I was bidding on were all way above estimates. So not sure which coins you were bidding on, but we are clearly talking about different coins, different quality and expectations… can you share the lots you were bidding on? Edited Thursday at 04:59 AM by El Cazador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesiod Posted Thursday at 05:35 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 05:35 AM 15 minutes ago, El Cazador said: can you share the lots you were bidding on? Some coins I thought went cheap. I wasn't bidding on most due to being an American, though: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837176 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837194 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837323 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837386 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837389 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837426 (well, maybe only one increment) https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837622 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted Thursday at 05:39 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 05:39 AM (edited) 11 minutes ago, Hesiod said: Some coins I thought went cheap. I wasn't bidding on most due to being an American, though: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837176 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837194 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837323 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837386 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837389 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837426 (well, maybe only one increment) https://www.biddr.com/auctions/romanumismatics/browse?a=3352&l=3837622 Yeah - we were bidding on different coins. The first one - price is good ,but obverse surface has a ton of unmentioned issues: horn silver or die rust, scratches, dents etc… others - I can’t comment on as I don’t collect fractions or coins with imperfections… thanks for sharing, though Edited Thursday at 05:47 AM by El Cazador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted Thursday at 07:10 AM · Member Author Share Posted Thursday at 07:10 AM 5 hours ago, El Cazador said: Well, the story didn’t make a dent in today’s bidding activity at Roma… so who cares! At the end of the day- bidding was as robust as always- no bargains and Auction House will certainly recover… Bit of a generalisation, no? You mentioned afterwards that you only buy specific types of coins and can't comment on the prices of others so perhaps best not to conclude the accusations against Beale made no difference overall. It's hard for any of us to say whether it made a dent or not without analysing the entire sale and comparing it to previous ones. Personally I saw some cheap hammers, and in the e-sale from last week I thought I got an excellent price on the coin I won. I also think many who may change their bidding based on the accusations wouldn't be doing it for moral reasons. At least based on what has been discussed in this thread, I think the main concerns are (a) increased risk of your wins being seized if you live in the US, and (b) increased risk of Roma being in a financially difficult position where either your coins or your money may get stuck in limbo for some time if the company were to dissolve or change ownership. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null Posted Thursday at 10:53 AM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 10:53 AM https://archive.ph/k10fa Article without the NYT paywall 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted Thursday at 12:27 PM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 12:27 PM (edited) One thing I find interesting in this case is that coins have been repatriated before the case is over. The "next appearance" date is currently showing as May 8th. Even if there's slam-dunk evidence that these coins were stolen and/or illegally exported/imported, doesn't that evidence still need to be evaluated in a court of law? Not sure what we can infer from the fact that coins have already been "repatriated" (a rather euphemistic description in my opinion) at this point ? Edited Thursday at 12:29 PM by Heliodromus 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted Thursday at 12:53 PM · Member Author Share Posted Thursday at 12:53 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, Heliodromus said: One thing I find interesting in this case is that coins have been repatriated before the case is over. The "next appearance" date is currently showing as May 8th. Even if there's slam-dunk evidence that these coins were stolen and/or illegally exported/imported, doesn't that evidence still need to be evaluated in a court of law? Not sure what we can infer from the fact that coins have already been "repatriated" (a rather euphemistic description in my opinion) at this point ? Curious about that too, I wonder if it hints at some plea deal having been worked out. Though I would've thought that even if Beale had admitted it was stolen, the coins would remain in evidence until the case is completed. In the case of the Naxos tetradrachm, I'm sure CBP has the authority to temporarily confiscate whatever they like for whatever reason at the border but surely there is an appeals process one could go through to request that a confiscate item should be allowed to be imported, which isn't exactly possible once it has been repatriated overseas. Edited Thursday at 01:37 PM by Kaleun96 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velarfricative Posted Thursday at 01:28 PM · Member Share Posted Thursday at 01:28 PM 12 hours ago, El Cazador said: At the end of the day- bidding was as robust as always- no bargains and Auction House will certainly recover… That is absolutely not the case. These were the worst hammers I have ever seen at Roma across every Bactrian coin they sold, to the point where it was closer to what I would expect from some no-name house specializing in modern coins. It was surprising to see, especially from an auction house that used to be able to list 40 Eukratides tets in a row and get 2k+ hammers for every single one. 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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