Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yes, like I said, I'm not vehemently anti-provenance.  I just agree that it can be overblown in certain cases.  These coins are generally the very expensive types.  I'm talking in terms of the big picture.

And I'm also referring to my coin buys.  It would be very cool if I knew where the coin came from.  However, other factors come first for me.

I can very much respect that you're interested in coins which originated in the UK. That's pretty cool.  I don't have any issue with you.

I'm generally happy-go-lucky and very respectful concerning anyone's coins.  I don't look at all threads but I'll generally like someone's coins.

I also mentioned the worst of the worst types.  I really haven't noticed them much (if at all) on this forum.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[kirispupis]

43 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

Well that settles it. No more Eid Mars for me!

You know, when I saw that Eid Mar for sale, I thought to myself "that provenance just seems a bit shaky." So I decided to not bid on it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[John Conduitt]

15 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

You know, when I saw that Eid Mar for sale, I thought to myself "that provenance just seems a bit shaky." So I decided to not bid on it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If I was spending $4m I'd want the Baron Dominique de Chambrier to bring it to me himself. On a silver platter.

I was very tempted to put a bid in at £250k. But I was fearful I might get the bargain of the century and go bankrupt at the same time.

[Kaleun96]

Just want to point out, given the recent topic of repatriation, that there is a difference between repatriation to the assumed country of origin, and repatriation to the actual country the coins were found in.

This case likely has both. The Eid Mar, and perhaps the Naxos, may not have a known find spot, but the Gaza dekadrachms do appear to. I'm sure many here can agree that if those Alexander dekadrachms were exported illegally from Palestine, they should go right back to Palestine. The same would presumably be true even somewhere like the UK with their PAS scheme - if you exported the items illegally, they should be returned to the UK.

There's probably even more agreement here on the worrying issues surrounding any potential repatriation of the Eid Mar in particular, given its speculated minting origin and perhaps unknown find spot. An unfortunate outcome seems likely: the authorities may either rush to agreement and send it somewhere it might not actually "belong", or they sit on the coin for years to come until any disputes are cleared up.

But the actual seizure may not have anything to do with repatriation per se, repatriation would be secondary. The seizure probably comes from the fact that the provenance was false and thus the import documentation was false. There's also the crime aspect, in which case the coin would be evidence. I assume HSI or similar are then within their powers to seize the coin, perhaps until Vecchi/Beale can offer any legitimate provenance that would allow for its import, but the grand larceny charges may indicate that the DA is pretty certain no such legitimate provenance exists.

So while repatriation will likely become a sore issue for the Eid Mar, I don't see it as being the primary reason Beale and Vecchi have found themselves in hot water. So it strikes me as a bit odd that several collectors here and elsewhere are primarily concerned about this aspect, more than they are concerned about the alleged criminal aspects, even though repatriation laws and practices are probably not to blame for these coins being seized. Repatriation is what comes afterwards because the coins were seized. If everything was done above board, the coins wouldn't be getting repatriated, so your blame should be directed towards those facing criminal charges instead.

[kirispupis]

12 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Just want to point out, given the recent topic of repatriation, that there is a difference between repatriation to the assumed country of origin, and repatriation to the actual country the coins were found in.

This case likely has both. The Eid Mar, and perhaps the Naxos, may not have a known find spot, but the Gaza dekadrachms do appear to. I'm sure many here can agree that if those Alexander dekadrachms were exported illegally from Palestine, they should go right back to Palestine. The same would presumably be true even somewhere like the UK with their PAS scheme - if you exported the items illegally, they should be returned to the UK.

I agree with what you say, but I do wonder what exactly they'll do with the dekadrachms. Since the US doesn't recognize Palestine, can they repatriate them? Or would the US just hand them over to Israel and say "you figure it out."  

[John Conduitt]

18 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Just want to point out, given the recent topic of repatriation, that there is a difference between repatriation to the assumed country of origin, and repatriation to the actual country the coins were found in.

This case likely has both. The Eid Mar, and perhaps the Naxos, may not have a known find spot, but the Gaza dekadrachms do appear to. I'm sure many here can agree that if those Alexander dekadrachms were exported illegally from Palestine, they should go right back to Palestine. The same would presumably be true even somewhere like the UK with their PAS scheme - if you exported the items illegally, they should be returned to the UK.

There's probably even more agreement here on the worrying issues surrounding any potential repatriation of the Eid Mar in particular, given its speculated minting origin and perhaps unknown find spot. An unfortunate outcome seems likely: the authorities may either rush to agreement and send it somewhere it might not actually "belong", or they sit on the coin for years to come until any disputes are cleared up.

But the actual seizure may not have anything to do with repatriation per se, repatriation would be secondary. The seizure probably comes from the fact that the provenance was false and thus the import documentation was false. There's also the crime aspect, in which case the coin would be evidence. I assume HSI or similar are then within their powers to seize the coin, perhaps until Vecchi/Beale can offer any legitimate provenance that would allow for its import, but the grand larceny charges may indicate that the DA is pretty certain no such legitimate provenance exists.

So while repatriation will likely become a sore issue for the Eid Mar, I don't see it as being the primary reason Beale and Vecchi have found themselves in hot water. So it strikes me as a bit odd that several collectors here and elsewhere are primarily concerned about this aspect, more than they are concerned about the alleged criminal aspects, even though repatriation laws and practices are probably not to blame for these coins being seized. Repatriation is what comes afterwards because the coins were seized. If everything was done above board, the coins wouldn't be getting repatriated, so your blame should be directed towards those facing criminal charges instead.

I agree, as I said before, this is the process that should happen, given the alleged actions of those accused. The issues with repatriation are to do with finding a 'rightful owner' for looted coins when there isn't one. Some are coins that were stolen from an entity that didn't even know they had them, to the point they still don't know if they ever did. Returning them to the country that struck them is like returning a stolen diamond to De Beers. Perhaps the rightful owner could be the buyer, who has done nothing wrong.

[DonnaML]

38 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Just want to point out, given the recent topic of repatriation, that there is a difference between repatriation to the assumed country of origin, and repatriation to the actual country the coins were found in.

This case likely has both. The Eid Mar, and perhaps the Naxos, may not have a known find spot, but the Gaza dekadrachms do appear to. I'm sure many here can agree that if those Alexander dekadrachms were exported illegally from Palestine, they should go right back to Palestine. The same would presumably be true even somewhere like the UK with their PAS scheme - if you exported the items illegally, they should be returned to the UK.

There's probably even more agreement here on the worrying issues surrounding any potential repatriation of the Eid Mar in particular, given its speculated minting origin and perhaps unknown find spot. An unfortunate outcome seems likely: the authorities may either rush to agreement and send it somewhere it might not actually "belong", or they sit on the coin for years to come until any disputes are cleared up.

But the actual seizure may not have anything to do with repatriation per se, repatriation would be secondary. The seizure probably comes from the fact that the provenance was false and thus the import documentation was false. There's also the crime aspect, in which case the coin would be evidence. I assume HSI or similar are then within their powers to seize the coin, perhaps until Vecchi/Beale can offer any legitimate provenance that would allow for its import, but the grand larceny charges may indicate that the DA is pretty certain no such legitimate provenance exists.

So while repatriation will likely become a sore issue for the Eid Mar, I don't see it as being the primary reason Beale and Vecchi have found themselves in hot water. So it strikes me as a bit odd that several collectors here and elsewhere are primarily concerned about this aspect, more than they are concerned about the alleged criminal aspects, even though repatriation laws and practices are probably not to blame for these coins being seized. Repatriation is what comes afterwards because the coins were seized. If everything was done above board, the coins wouldn't be getting repatriated, so your blame should be directed towards those facing criminal charges instead.

You are absolutely correct. This situation couldn't be more unlike the numerous cases of Italy or Greece commencing legal proceedings -- or simply exerting public pressure -- demanding the return of allegedly stolen antiquities on display in the Getty or the Metropolitan Museum. They asserted no such claim for the Eid Mar.

As far as identifying the country to which the Eid Mar would be repatriated is concerned, the assumption seems to be that it's Greece, because that's where it was probably minted. Which doesn't prove that it was actually found in Greece, and find spot is determinative. I suspect that Vecchi, at least, has a pretty good idea where it was found, and for all I know bought it -- directly or indirectly -- from whoever dug it up. Given that the coin was previously unknown, a recent excavation seems much more likely than the possibility that it was sitting in someone's collection for 200 years.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Vecchi's lawyers are busy negotiating a plea bargain of some sort, and that's why he hasn't yet been charged. (Although the fact that he was smart enough not to show his face in New York may also have something to do with it!)

Edited March 11, 2023 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

I didn't notice that anyone else has posted the link, so here's another article that appeared today -- in addition to recounting the allegations we all already know, it's considerably more gossipy than the other article:  https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/worlds-most-expensive-coin-fake-provenance-roman-eid-mar-1234659762/ .

It appears that the "Old Guard" is taking the opportunity to get some revenge on this upstart, who came out of nowhere -- one might almost say, without provenance:

"Previously a member of the British Army, the 40-something-year-old Beale made a sudden entrance into the small world of coins dealers in London in 2009.

“He was like a bolt of lightning,” Christopher Martin, the Chairman of the British Numismatic Trade Association, told ARTnews. “He appeared and made his mark in the market that he wasn’t brought up in. Within a year, he was selling coins worth millions of pounds. That doesn’t happen, but that’s what happened with him. Where did he come from? Nobody really knew.”

At that time, Beale seemingly overnight built up a modern coin auction house with glossy catalogues and modern photography. Unlike his colleagues, he hadn’t come up in the business by way of family, nor had he gotten into the business as a young man, slowly but surely building a reputation as an expert, explained Martin. Other dealers watched in awe as he began trading coins in the millions, seemingly with no experience in the area. Somehow, he had access to highly valuable coins."

Almost like one of those Victorian novels about mysterious outsiders penetrating English society. The insinuations are rather clear, even if they may fall short of being defamatory.

Regarding Vecchi, the article is the first time I've read anything like the following: "The investigation into Vecchi is ongoing and he has not yet been charged."  Emphasis on "yet." Keeping in mind that artnews is usually a reliable source.

Edited March 11, 2023 by DonnaML

[El Cazador]

5 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I didn't notice that anyone else has posted the link, so here's another article that appeared today -- in addition to recounting the allegations we all already know, it's considerably more gossipy than the other article:  https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/worlds-most-expensive-coin-fake-provenance-roman-eid-mar-1234659762/ .

It appears that the "Old Guard" is taking the opportunity to get some revenge on this upstart, who came out of nowhere -- one might almost say, without provenance:

"Previously a member of the British Army, the 40-something-year-old Beale made a sudden entrance into the small world of coins dealers in London in 2009.

“He was like a bolt of lightning,” Christopher Martin, the Chairman of the British Numismatic Trade Association, told ARTnews. “He appeared and made his mark in the market that he wasn’t brought up in. Within a year, he was selling coins worth millions of pounds. That doesn’t happen, but that’s what happened with him. Where did he come from? Nobody really knew.”

At that time, Beale seemingly overnight built up a modern coin auction house with glossy catalogues and modern photography. Unlike his colleagues, he hadn’t come up in the business by way of family, nor had he gotten into the business as a young man, slowly but surely building a reputation as an expert, explained Martin. Other dealers watched in awe as he began trading coins in the millions, seemingly with no experience in the area. Somehow, he had access to highly valuable coins."

Almost like one of those Victorian novels about mysterious outsiders penetrating English society. The insinuations are rather clear, even if they may fall short of being defamatory.

Yeah, seems like the old guard is very jealous of “new blood” success- kinda sad, that there is still jealousy out there…a ton of respect for newcomers…but in no way i am endorsing fraud…

[idesofmarch01]

51 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I didn't notice that anyone else has posted the link, so here's another article that appeared today -- in addition to recounting the allegations we all already know, it's considerably more gossipy than the other article:  https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/worlds-most-expensive-coin-fake-provenance-roman-eid-mar-1234659762/ .

It appears that the "Old Guard" is taking the opportunity to get some revenge on this upstart, who came out of nowhere -- one might almost say, without provenance:

"Previously a member of the British Army, the 40-something-year-old Beale made a sudden entrance into the small world of coins dealers in London in 2009.

“He was like a bolt of lightning,” Christopher Martin, the Chairman of the British Numismatic Trade Association, told ARTnews. “He appeared and made his mark in the market that he wasn’t brought up in. Within a year, he was selling coins worth millions of pounds. That doesn’t happen, but that’s what happened with him. Where did he come from? Nobody really knew.”

At that time, Beale seemingly overnight built up a modern coin auction house with glossy catalogues and modern photography. Unlike his colleagues, he hadn’t come up in the business by way of family, nor had he gotten into the business as a young man, slowly but surely building a reputation as an expert, explained Martin. Other dealers watched in awe as he began trading coins in the millions, seemingly with no experience in the area. Somehow, he had access to highly valuable coins."

Almost like one of those Victorian novels about mysterious outsiders penetrating English society. The insinuations are rather clear, even if they may fall short of being defamatory.

Regarding Vecchi, the article is the first time I've read anything like the following: "The investigation into Vecchi is ongoing and he has not yet been charged."  Emphasis on "yet." Keeping in mind that artnews is usually a reliable source.

Note that this article claims that the Eid Mar aureus has actually been recovered and will be returned/repatriated.

[Heliodromus]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

At that time, Beale seemingly overnight built up a modern coin auction house with glossy catalogues and modern photography. Unlike his colleagues, he hadn’t come up in the business by way of family, nor had he gotten into the business as a young man, slowly but surely building a reputation as an expert, explained Martin. Other dealers watched in awe as he began trading coins in the millions, seemingly with no experience in the area. Somehow, he had access to highly valuable coins."

I remember when Roma got started - his initial sales were all top quality (all gold? - I forget) material that had been bought in recent auctions at top prices. I thought it a bit odd at the time, but he was successful in establishing Roma as a high-end venue right from the beginning.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Heliodromus

[SeuthesOfOdrysia]

This thread hit me personally, as it relates to Roma and Mr. Beale and the current happenings are a blown up carbon copy of the problems I have had with Roma in the past. I wish this wasnt my first comment, but alas, I just could not resist.

I think there are several common misconceptions here:

1) That this case "came out of nowhere"

2) That Roma "came out of nowhere", and Mr. Beale established himself with his own merits and superior acumen

3) That other auctions are/were "jealous" of Beale's success and lack of pedigree regarding coin collecting - and this is revenge of the giants against an upstart

This case (fraud/falsified provenance) did not come out of nowhere. This was the result of many issues Roma has had in the past, some of which I have had the misfortune to experience personally.

I LOVED Roma. It was my go to for Greek and Roman coins, and IMO, had better selections than CNG and Gorny & Mosch, my two other go-to's for this hobby. I capitalized 'love' because, well, I probably spent well over $1 to 2 million just at Roma in 4 years. Where it all went wrong was in 2020, when, a friend of mine who is an expert (professor of archaeology) visited and noted a few strange things related to two of my coins from Roma. Not to get into the details, one was a coin that was tampered with (but not disclosed at auction - specifically drilled and re-filled), and the other was not from the collection it said it was from, in fact it most certainly was 'stolen' or illegally shipped as my friend was able to track down exactly where it came from, and why it should never have been for sale, let alone sold from the UK.

To make a very long story short, I confronted Beale mildly - really, all I wanted was for the description of the lot to change to reflect the findings: for the 'provenance' to be removed and for the tampering to be noted. I cared not for any refund or monetary reimbursement as I collect to collect, not to sell. Ive never sold a single coin in my life, not even those I inherited and have no desire to collect. To make several boring passive aggressive emails between Beale and I short, I was banned from Roma for bringing this up.

Well, as it happened, being banned from Roma unwittingly put me in contact with a few others over the last few years that had similar issues. I became aware the Roma was certainly and obviously in the cross hairs of various antiquity watchdogs for being a regular at this, and also, for doing dubious things like claiming certain coins are rare 'hybrid' or transitional issues when in fact they are not.

Which leads me to my next contention of the point that Beale "came out of nowhere" and had no money or inheritance or pedigree or connections, and built up Roma on his own merit. Simply put, there is no way anyone can open an auction house without 1 of 2 things: serious money, or serious connections. I would assume Mr. Beale most likely belongs to the 2nd category - serious connections - and this is what allowed him to establish Roma and offer coins of the highest quality, even in its earlier days (2010 onward). Those serious connections are funnily enough, most likely what has ended up ruining his career, as he undoubtedly became emboldened enough to fake a provenance on an extremely rare and expensive coin that would undoubtedly be scrutinized at every angle for years to come. And these connections certainly don't sprout out of nowhere.

Beale seems to be the sort of perfect front man for more dubious characters in this business: he's ex-army, has no history, is passionate and charismatic and understood that much of selling coins above estimate is in the photography and presentation. In addition, he was new to the game, and most likely offered much better returns than well established auction houses that could use their brand to beat smaller collectors and dealers into giving up larger %. I think this is where it is obvious to say Beale did not come out of nowhere - he was backed by some serious dealers and collectors in the UK and EU, and if I can make the analogy, like Obama rose through the ranks to become POTUS seemingly out of nowhere, but anyone whose even remotely studies the subject can find that he had some serious billionaires (in this case, Soros) that allowed him to take to the higher stage.

It would seem a bit odd then that the scrutiny of a new and increasingly popular auction house is simply due to competition pulling strings. I think I can safely say that most collectors in general are at odds with authorities, and though there is a revolving door between agencies, universities, collectors, auction houses, etc. I dont think it is at the point of massive conspiracy. After all, the general 'fake provenance' tactics by old auction houses is listed in vague terms. When I see "Purchased from a private collection in southern Germany", I assume that this can be equally true or false, and that the auction house can also either be 'in the know' or not about the actual provenance of the coin.

This is leagues apart, though, from stating something like "Came from Henry XIII's collection" whilst knowing the exact origin of the coin. To make matters worse, it is also fairly incomprehensible to fake provenance on the highlighted auction lot, especially one that is sure to draw hundreds of thousands to millions. At this point, one has to understand, you're essentially destroying the top end of your business. Agencies could care less about someone selling an Antoninianus radiate with dubious origin for $200 with a fake provenance, but a $1 million coin? Not that Beale is alone in this, of course not. We've seen auction houses trying to sell (and sometimes even succeeding) in selling fakes of ancients in the $1 million range, let alone fake provenances.

But this does tarnish the reputation of Roma, especially among collectors of the top end category, and I cant say I feel any remorse for Beale. He has shown himself to be exactly of the same mold as many many others in this business, and those defending him - why? Why defend someone making money off half-truths and fraud? Beale is not, like many others in the business, an academic whose work precedes his reputation. All he had was his reputation, and he has currently lost a massive amount of it.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by SeuthesOfOdrysia
grammar

[DonnaML]

47 minutes ago, SeuthesOfOdrysia said:

This thread hit me personally, as it relates to Roma and Mr. Beale and the current happenings are a blown up carbon copy of the problems I have had with Roma in the past. I wish this wasnt my first comment, but alas, I just could not resist.

I think there are several common misconceptions here:

1) That this case "came out of nowhere"

2) That Roma "came out of nowhere", and Mr. Beale established himself with his own merits and superior acumen

3) That other auctions are/were "jealous" of Beale's success and lack of pedigree regarding coin collecting - and this is revenge of the giants against an upstart

This case (fraud/falsified provenance) did not come out of nowhere. This was the result of many issues Roma has had in the past, some of which I have had the misfortune to experience personally.

I LOVED Roma. It was my go to for Greek and Roman coins, and IMO, had better selections than CNG and Gorny & Mosch, my two other go-to's for this hobby. I capitalized 'love' because, well, I probably spent well over $1 to 2 million just at Roma in 4 years. Where it all went wrong was in 2020, when, a friend of mine who is an expert (professor of archaeology) visited and noted a few strange things related to two of my coins from Roma. Not to get into the details, one was a coin that was tampered with (but not disclosed at auction - specifically drilled and re-filled), and the other was not from the collection it said it was from, in fact it most certainly was 'stolen' or illegally shipped as my friend was able to track down exactly where it came from, and why it should never have been for sale, let alone sold from the UK.

To make a very long story short, I confronted Beale mildly - really, all I wanted was for the description of the lot to change to reflect the findings: for the 'provenance' to be removed and for the tampering to be noted. I cared not for any refund or monetary reimbursement as I collect to collect, not to sell. Ive never sold a single coin in my life, not even those I inherited and have no desire to collect. To make several boring passive aggressive emails between Beale and I short, I was banned from Roma for bringing this up.

Well, as it happened, being banned from Roma unwittingly put me in contact with a few others over the last few years that had similar issues. I became aware the Roma was certainly and obviously in the cross hairs of various antiquity watchdogs for being a regular at this, and also, for doing dubious things like claiming certain coins are rare 'hybrid' or transitional issues when in fact they are not.

Which leads me to my next contention of the point that Beale "came out of nowhere" and had no money or inheritance or pedigree or connections, and built up Roma on his own merit. Simply put, there is no way anyone can open an auction house without 1 of 2 things: serious money, or serious connections. I would assume Mr. Beale most likely belongs to the 2nd category - serious connections - and this is what allowed him to establish Roma and offer coins of the highest quality, even in its earlier days (2010 onward). Those serious connections are funnily enough, most likely what has ended up ruining his career, as he undoubtedly became emboldened enough to fake a provenance on an extremely rare and expensive coin that would undoubtedly be scrutinized at every angle for years to come. And these connections certainly don't sprout out of nowhere.

Beale seems to be the sort of perfect front man for more dubious characters in this business: he's ex-army, has no history, is passionate and charismatic and understood that much of selling coins above estimate is in the photography and presentation. In addition, he was new to the game, and most likely offered much better returns than well established auction houses that could use their brand to beat smaller collectors and dealers into giving up larger %. I think this is where it is obvious to say Beale did not come out of nowhere - he was backed by some serious dealers and collectors in the UK and EU, and if I can make the analogy, like Obama rose through the ranks to become POTUS seemingly out of nowhere, but anyone whose even remotely studies the subject can find that he had some serious billionaires (in this case, Soros) that allowed him to take to the higher stage.

It would seem a bit odd then that the scrutiny of a new and increasingly popular auction house is simply due to competition pulling strings. I think I can safely say that most collectors in general are at odds with authorities, and though there is a revolving door between agencies, universities, collectors, auction houses, etc. I dont think it is at the point of massive conspiracy. After all, the general 'fake provenance' tactics by old auction houses is listed in vague terms. When I see "Purchased from a private collection in southern Germany", I assume that this can be equally true or false, and that the auction house can also either be 'in the know' or not about the actual provenance of the coin.

This is leagues apart, though, from stating something like "Came from Henry XIII's collection" whilst knowing the exact origin of the coin. To make matters worse, it is also fairly incomprehensible to fake provenance on the highlighted auction lot, especially one that is sure to draw hundreds of thousands to millions. At this point, one has to understand, you're essentially destroying the top end of your business. Agencies could care less about someone selling an Antoninianus radiate with dubious origin for $200 with a fake provenance, but a $1 million coin? Not that Beale is alone in this, of course not. We've seen auction houses trying to sell (and sometimes even succeeding) in selling fakes of ancients in the $1 million range, let alone fake provenances.

But this does tarnish the reputation of Roma, especially among collectors of the top end category, and I cant say I feel any remorse for Beale. He has shown himself to be exactly of the same mold as many many others in this business, and those defending him - why? Why defend someone making money off half-truths and fraud? Beale is not, like many others in the business, an academic whose work precedes his reputation. All he had was his reputation, and he has currently lost a massive amount of it.

 

I've never defended Beale in this thread. Just the opposite. I was amused by the quotation from Chris Martin in artnews.com, but it's an unjustified leap to think I believe established dealers set out to bring Beale down. One has nothing to do with the other. 

And no, you can't make the analogy. I suggest that you delete, and stay away in the future, from irrelevant and inflammatory comments like the one about President Obama and George Soros. Or people will think you're an anti-Semitic conspiracy mongerer. Or maybe that you're Viktor Orban! Because that's who tends to brings up George Soros out of left field in that way. We wouldn't want that, would we?

[zadie]

12 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I've never defended Beale in this thread. Just the opposite. I was amused by the quotation from Chris Martin in artnews.com, but it's an unjustified leap to think I believe established dealers set out to bring Beale down. One has nothing to do with the other. 

And no, you can't make the analogy. I suggest that you delete, and stay away in the future, from irrelevant and inflammatory comments like the one about President Obama and George Soros. Or people will think you're an anti-Semitic conspiracy mongerer. Or maybe that you're Viktor Orban! Because that's who tends to brings up George Soros out of left field in that way. We wouldn't want that, would we?

I was peeved by the Soros analogy too. However, I really don't think he was implying anything other than that strong actors generally do not come out of nowhere unless they have powerful connections (as in Beale's case). Let's not stray further into politics, I'm sure @SeuthesOfOdrysia can clarify what he meant and then we can move to issues that are actually on-topic.

[DonnaML]

1 minute ago, zadie said:

I was peeved by the Soros analogy too. However, I really don't think he was implying anything other than that strong actors generally do not come out of nowhere unless they have powerful connections (as in Beale's case). Let's not stray further into politics, I'm sure @SeuthesOfOdrysia can clarify what he meant and then we can move to issues that are actually on-topic.

I agree, and I certainly hope so.

[Deinomenid]

@SeuthesOfOdrysia if you never intend to sell any coins and are presumably not therefore worried at affecting their value is there any chance you can share specifics?

 

On rising out of  nowhere is an  interesting  point (ex-Soros that is) as 4 years  is an  unusual period to be  in the British army as an officer. Commissions are 12 years and you can leave after 3.  4 is possible but quite  unusual unless... I don't see how you build serious connections after a few years at Durham followed by a few as a junior officer though. Assuming  his cv/resume is accurate (!).

[Roman Collector]

38 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I suggest that you delete, and stay away in the future, from irrelevant and inflammatory comments like the one about President Obama and George Soros. Or people will think you're an anti-Semitic conspiracy mongerer.

Agree 100% with Donna.

[El Cazador]

18 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

Agree 100% with Donna.

To be fair- everyone has a right to express their opinions, and i am pretty sure - there was no ill intent there!

Edited March 12, 2023 by El Cazador

[DonnaML]

14 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

To be fair- everyone has a right to express their opinions, and i am pretty sure - there was no ill intent there!

Not on that kind of inflammatory political topic. Not here.

[El Cazador]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Not on that kind of inflammatory political topic. Not here.

I personally don’t think any offense was intended.
We shouldn’t introduce a “cancel” culture on everything.

Some of the comments made here about Poles were very offensive and derogatory but I didn’t mention anything to you and other members making similar remarks about Poles on this forum, maybe I should have…

Edited March 12, 2023 by El Cazador

[DonnaML]

55 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

I personally don’t think any offense was intended.
We shouldn’t introduce a “cancel” culture on everything.

Some of the comments made here about Poles were very offensive and derogatory but I didn’t mention anything to you and other members making similar remarks about Poles on this forum, maybe I should have…

Other than calling the present government of Poland "unfortunate" because of certain actions it has taken -- a comment I admit was political, and which I'd be happy to delete if it offends you -- my criticisms were directed at Paul Barford and his views on what constitutes Polish national heritage. Something I have a right to hold an opinion on, given that my father's family lived there for centuries. And if you think I invented the popularity of "lucky Jew dolls," look them up. https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-lucky-jew-dolls-are-more-popular-than-actual-jews-in-poland/ . They're derogatory and offensive towards Jews, not Poles. As are Barford's views. Which was my point. I made no derogatory comments about Poles in general.  I recognize full well how heroic so many of them were, both in and out of the country. 

[Di Nomos]

1 hour ago, Deinomenid said:

Assuming  his cv/resume is accurate (!).

Maybe he paid someone for a made up resume also.

[robinjojo]

This is a sad, yet very familiar situation that we humans, being the complex and often times contradictory creatures that we are, often fall into. In the end, no one "wins" and little seems to be gained or even learned, as the same pattern will be repeated time and again, making the news, creating a stir, cameras flashing, pronouncements made, then lights out, until the next episode. 

I have enjoyed participating in the Roma auctions, almost all e-sales, and I hope that the firm survives this tempest.  The e-sales have been a great source for mid-grade coins for me, and the staff has been responsive, courteous and top notch overall, qualities that are not universal in this industry, alas.  

Edited March 12, 2023 by robinjojo

[SeuthesOfOdrysia]

5 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I've never defended Beale in this thread. Just the opposite. I was amused by the quotation from Chris Martin in artnews.com, but it's an unjustified leap to think I believe established dealers set out to bring Beale down. One has nothing to do with the other. 

And no, you can't make the analogy. I suggest that you delete, and stay away in the future, from irrelevant and inflammatory comments like the one about President Obama and George Soros. Or people will think you're an anti-Semitic conspiracy mongerer. Or maybe that you're Viktor Orban! Because that's who tends to brings up George Soros out of left field in that way. We wouldn't want that, would we?

I guess I’m confused here, especially as an Ashkenazi Jew whose family was decimated by the Holocaust.

What possibly antisemitic thing could you draw from a reference of Obama being backed by Soros? It’s not even a theory - it’s well documented fact. Soros, a good friend of Rahm Emmanuel, met Barry in Chicago and donated heavily to his campaign and drew in lots of support from his many foundations and political connections. I meant to draw no ire with this other than to point out that behind most unusually quick success stories is a heavily influential backer. 

I’m also confused as to why you think I targeted your posts/opinions at all, when it was actually the opposite in fact. 

[SeuthesOfOdrysia]

4 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

@SeuthesOfOdrysia if you never intend to sell any coins and are presumably not therefore worried at affecting their value is there any chance you can share specifics?

 

On rising out of  nowhere is an  interesting  point (ex-Soros that is) as 4 years  is an  unusual period to be  in the British army as an officer. Commissions are 12 years and you can leave after 3.  4 is possible but quite  unusual unless... I don't see how you build serious connections after a few years at Durham followed by a few as a junior officer though. Assuming  his cv/resume is accurate (!).

Sure! I am however solely on my phone atm and can’t bring up the references easily, but the drilled/filled coin is a Messana tetradrachm and the faked provenance coin is a Akragas tetradrachm. I’ll follow up with specifics and even personal photos/Roma lot and auction #s when I’m back home from my travels.

As for Beale’s background, to go from nothing to suddenly owning a business with no prior experience is always the result of capital, whether directly inherited or privately loaned. You simply would never be able to convince a bank to take the risk.
 

And I apologize for the Soros bit, I seriously don’t understand the ‘hot-potato’ ness of it, maybe I’m not privy to some recent news? My sister works for one of his foundations in Europe, and he was just at the forefront of my mind when I was thinking of a relatively obscure figure (Obama in Chicago) rising to power quickly via the backing of a powerful figure (Soros). I didn’t intend to draw any parallels between anything else whatever they may be.