Curtis JJ Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 4, 2022 (edited) Anyone else feel like sharing coins for which the border was a big part of what made them attractive to you? Even though it's considered a minor design element, usually not even mentioned in descriptions, I'm a bigtime sucker for a coin with a complete border, usually "dotted" ones (or "bead border," or the "pearl ring" in the phrase "pearl ring diameter" [PRD]). (This came up briefly re: a lovely Sev. Alex. denarius in a run of comments recently -- here and here and here -- in the CNG e-sale thread.) I don't know when it was first used (my earliest may be the Tarsos Stater below, c. 361-334 BCE, and the latest a 12th cent. Artuqid AE Dirhem), but I have the impression it's popularity peaked with late Roman coins. Given how many coins use a border, it's amazing how few actually have a complete one (or complete one on both sides). When it happens, it's usually an impressive effect, even on common and less-artistic types: Actually, that one isn't quite 100%. Neither is this one, but still close enough to set these coins apart from most others of their type: A complete border requires a full flan, skillful centering, and a strong strike. Even with great centering, just a bit of weakness and you can lose a big chunk: For some types (like 3rd cent. Sestertii), it's unusual to see even part of the border, so just portions are notable: The border also gives room for dramatic artistic expression. One thing I love about this obverse die on Mazaios Staters (Cilicia, Tarsos, c. 361-334 BCE) is that Baal's staff is depicted extending beyond the border. It's as if the engraver was saying their work was too great to be constrained by boundaries (I've seen a much better-centered example posted here by @Brennos, which is rare for this type). The same technique was used to great effect with Hellenistic portrait coins (of Lysimachos, other Seleukid Kings, and, no doubt, many others). On the Antiochos IX below, notice how the neck truncation extends beyond the (filleted) border around 6 o'clock: Other times, it seems the engravers had trouble working within those constraints. On the reverse below, the legend is crammed awkwardly into the space within the border, but still spills out a bit on either end! You can see also see the failed attempt to make space by curving the legend (and using the tiny dot for "O", which I seem to recall is an archaic form?): When done properly, though, at least for my taste, it can make up for various other defects, such as slightly misshapen flans or worn specimens, and still results in an appealing coin: This one even has a second inner ring on the reverse! Edited August 4, 2022 by Curtis JJ 26 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 Your NewStyle obverse got what mine lacks...... a Pegasos! Quite nice, pity it aint got an amphora date but I guess a quick reference to Thompson and that could be solved? NSK=John 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted August 4, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 4, 2022 Here's a Gordie with a complete border as it is an outsized flan. 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniard Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 4, 2022 @Curtis JJ...Nice coins! Here's a Licinius I with full border both sides... Licinius I AE3 Follis. AD 318-320....19mm....3.24gr some silvering remains. Obverse..IMP LICI-NIVS AVG, laureate bust right, wearing imperial mantle, holding globe, sceptre and mappa Reverse.. PROVIDEN-TIAE AVGG, campgate with three turrets,6 laters, no door, Λ in right field. Mintmark SMHA. Heraclea mint 1st oficina RIC VII#48 (Note: RIC wrongly describes the bust as facing left.) 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientOne Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 (edited) Nice coins Curtis! I don't have many with a full rim but this one will do. Moesia Inferior, Markianopolis. Commodus AE20. Nemean Lion. Obv: AVT KAI L AVP KOMODOC, laureate head right Rev: MAPKIANOPOLEITWN, Hercules wrestling Nemean lion left. Edited August 4, 2022 by AncientOne 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 4, 2022 @Curtis JJ, you are right it is surprisingly difficult to find a full dotted border on both sides of a coin. I have some with a full border on one side and a few that come pretty close on both. Complete on one side: Close on both side Closest on both sides 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 4, 2022 I had to search for 10 minutes until I found a complete dotted border: Ephesos (Circa 50-27 BC) Jason, magistrate Obv.: Ε - Φ, Artemis advancing right, drawing arrow from quiver at shoulder and holding bow; hound at her feet Rev.: ΙΑΣΩΝ, Cock standing right with palm over wing within laurel wreath. AE, 10.88 g, 25 mm. Ref.: SNG Copenhagen 344 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etcherdude Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 4, 2022 Does this count? 16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 (edited) Extraordinary write-up. Funny, today I was checking my album and I was thinking that you need to select a lot of coins until you find one with the full border (especially on both sides). As you correctly stated, you need 1. a big enough flan 2. good centering 3. powerful strike. Very difficult to fulfill all these 3 points! Not to mention the coin needs to be in a good condition to highlight the full presence of the border. But I don't condemn the mint workers too much - in the end, they were overworked and the technical capabilities were extremely limited. But every time I check my coins or any auction I can't stop asking myself how were the ancient people able to create such gems and most of the actual modern coins are .... meh. As I said, I don't have many examples - and this feature raises the prices in auctions a lot, on a side note. Just 3 where both sides have the full borders - the ones with just a side having it complete don't count (but I don't have a bunch of them anyway) A Probus antoninianus I liked a lot and the full border was a bonus. This Maximinus Thrax would have been an excellent candidate - but the bad strike ruined it (OK, not completely, I still like this coin) A Saloninus that barely made it Although this coin is far from fulfilling the scenario, I think it deserves a mention, as it is (as far as I know) the only example of a Roman coin where the design exceeds the border (similar to the Greek examples posted in the OP) Edited August 4, 2022 by ambr0zie 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtis JJ Posted August 4, 2022 · Supporter Author Share Posted August 4, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, ambr0zie said: it deserves a mention, as it is (as far as I know) the only example of a Roman coin where the design exceeds the border (similar to the Greek examples posted in the OP) You're right, good one! I don't know if it's the only one but I've definitely noticed that eagle beyond the border for exactly this reason. Quite an interesting type (for several reasons)! Edit: by the way @ambr0zie-- love the Dacian captive for your avatar! I love that series of Trajan denarii but don't yet have that one, sitting on the shield. (I think the image was first used by Domitian for a Germanic captive aureus) Edited August 4, 2022 by Curtis JJ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 19 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said: Edit: by the way @ambr0zie-- love the Dacian captive for your avatar! I love that series of Trajan denarii but don't yet have that one, sitting on the shield. (I think the image was first used by Domitian for a Germanic captive aureus) Thanks. It is a type of coin that was on the top of the wish list for me, unfortunately the borders are ... partial. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 Closest I have. Gordy on the left 12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Phil Davis Posted August 4, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 4, 2022 17 1 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Beale Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 20 2 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientJoe Posted August 4, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 4, 2022 I had a friend who was new to ancients and only wanted to buy coins which had the full dotted border on them... he quickly abandoned that plan. Here are a couple of mine which come to mind as close enough to make the cut: Ex Biaggi: 12 1 4 3 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted August 5, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted August 5, 2022 Tough assignment! I'm not sure I have any that truly qualify on both sides, although a few come close, and arguably qualify on one side at least, plus most of the other. Such as: Caracalla: Plautilla: Severus Alexander: Otacilia Severa: 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientJoe Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Richard Beale said: That flan is something you don't see every day! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted August 5, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted August 5, 2022 several of mine with full dot boarders , at least on one side. 13 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 11 hours ago, shanxi said: I had to search for 10 minutes until I found a complete dotted border: Ephesos (Circa 50-27 BC) Jason, magistrate Obv.: Ε - Φ, Artemis advancing right, drawing arrow from quiver at shoulder and holding bow; hound at her feet Rev.: ΙΑΣΩΝ, Cock standing right with palm over wing within laurel wreath. AE, 10.88 g, 25 mm. Ref.: SNG Copenhagen 344 Cock with palm...a symbol of Apollo, so I'm lead to believe. The cock crows at first light when the sun ( Apollo) comes up OK? Nice rendition! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Beale Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 6 hours ago, AncientJoe said: That flan is something you don't see every day! Indeed… It’s a special issue in my view. It has a newly-recognised denominational mark on the reverse and is part of a series issued along with drachms (also with denominational mark) and a unique pentadrachm (also displaying an explicit denomination). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodotus Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 A little weakly struck in spots, but mostly all there on both sides. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maridvnvm Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 As has been noted a full border of dots generally requires a generous enough flan combined with a well centred strong strike. I have noted that there are some exceptions to this. For example this hemidrachm from Pharkadon has an obverse design incorporating a dotted border that is much smaller than the design on the reverse. This gives more leeway in the striking process for the obverse . I have seen Severus Alexander above and it would appear that for some issues the control on flan size and central strike is well controlled. @DonnaMLillustrates a MARS VLTOR. I also have an example that almost meets the ciriteria as the reverse has lost about 5 dots at 1 o'clock.. The output of Probus at Rome gives us many examples that meet the ciriteria but these seem more prolific in Emissions 2 and 9. Emission 2 Emission 9 There is a negative side effect of having a large flan is that the flan might not have enough metal available across the entire flan to reflect the design regardless of how good the strike is. This leads to flatness in the strike that can be seen on corresponding sides of the resultant coin. Here, on an emission 2 coin of Probus, it can be seen in the head of the emperor and legend above in the reverse, which corresponds to the centre of the cuirass on the obverse. The oversized flan and well centred strike were certainly part of the appeal with this Constantine the Great from Rome despite the influence of the flan ceck through the border on both sides. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Octavius said: several of mine with full dot boarders , at least on one side. Absolutely LOVE that Caligula in the middle! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restitutor Posted August 5, 2022 · Administrator Share Posted August 5, 2022 This is a tough assignment! So many come 95% of the way there…. Here are my 3 that I think fit the brief! Funnily enough one was a coin I just posted in another thread on an unrelated topic. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Atherton Posted August 5, 2022 · Member Share Posted August 5, 2022 This Judaea Capta denarius has a nearly complete dotted border on the reverse, due to the oversized oblong flan. Vespasian AR Denarius, 2.71g Rome Mint, 69-70 AD Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r. Rev: IVDAEA in ex.; Jewess (as type of Judaea), draped and veiled, seated r. on ground, head inclined downwards, l. knee drawn up, hand bound behind back and fastened to palm-tree RIC 4 (R). BMC 43. RSC 229. BNC -. Hendin 1480. Acquired from Zuzim Judaea, May 2012. 14 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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