bent coin, changed to now what should I do? (see later posts)

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Woo hoo!  My first bent coin!  And I don't think it was bent when it was sent.  Thanks LAC!

After forever and a day, my London Ancients order showed up, with a lovely bend!

  I believe it's recent, because the picture doesn't look bent and the cracks in the bend are bright, not toned.

The two coins weren't in a cardboard coins enclosed thing, nor were they stiffened up, like most coin dealers do.  It was also sent in a floppy baggy.  There was a padded mailer inside the mailer baggie, the coins being in a little envelope within.

Strangely enough, the package shows no signs of bends or damage.  The Philip I provincial Dacia Sestertius doesn't seem to be harmed. Also, the flips showed no bends, whatsoever.

The way my day went, this was a most fitting end to today.  I just wanted to illustrate excellence, Chef Ramsay-style.

By the way, my dad had given me some money to order myself a Christmas present.  Before I changed it to a Demetrius Tetradrachm, this was originally it.  I only ordered it because I didn't realize that Nero Caesar denarii were more affordable in low grade than ones of Claudius.

before

original description

Nero (Caesar, 50-54). AR Denarius (19mm, 3.23g, 12h). Rome, AD 51. Bareheaded and draped young bust l. R/ Simpulum above tripod; on r., lituus above patera. RIC I 77 (Claudius); RSC 312. Near VF

I kept the Near VF in the listing, for comic relief.  Before this happened, I had graded it aVG.

I don't know if I want to order from LAC again.  I don't know what's going on, perhaps they're moving?  They've been out of the office a lot lately, and the past 3 packages have come from Essex.

After, (Drumroll)

 

The 'Duel' Truck perfectly sums up my mood (minus the active mayhem part), from blaring horn to clashing gears.  Now that's one movie prop I'd love to have! (I recently watched a video of a collector who has the truck now. It happened to be my favorite childhood movie).

The strange part is, why wouldn't other parts of the package show damage?

In 30 years of collecting, I can't recall a coin I received damaged in transit (the HJB Justinian II came real close).  I had a 2009 Khrusru package destroyed by the Post office, but it never showed up.  (The mauled Allen Berman order showed me what happened).  Perhaps the Duel semi (a 1946 Peterbilt) ran the Nero over?

The HJB package LOOKED mauled.  This didn't.  Strange.

Goody, goody, gumdrops.  Now I have to write a letter to the dealer over the weekend.  I'm hoping they'll see sense and that I won't have to go to my least favorite place of all, the local Post Office.  I'd rather just eat the 80 bucks rather than do that.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I re-examined the padded mailer.  There is a crease, but it's not extreme and only shows on one side. It could be a coincidence.

I'm also going to allow myself a cooling off period before contacting the dealer, which is easy, since I have to be at work early tomorrow and won't have a chance to do anything until Friday night, and I don't want to be bothered with something annoying on Friday night.

The lack of obvious damage elsewhere is what puzzles me.  The flip wasn't creased.  The first clue that something was wrong was when the bottom half of the coin looked darker.  The slight crease in one side of the inner mailer (about where the coin was) is the only sign.

Through my travails of Priority mail, I know what a mauled package looks like. The Justinian II stiff mailer looked like a tank had rolled over it. Another Priority package also had tire (like a conveyor belt) tracks.  This had nothing obvious. 

My initial anger has mellowed to sadness that a 2,000 year-old artifact has met such an end.  A clean break in two would have been better than this. Lesson; don't send overseas package in a floppy mailer.

They once sent a fragile, chipped siliqua without incidence.  I want to say that they sent letter-sized packages then.  I'm pretty sure they did.  The floppy mailer is a recent change.

Tom Vossen encases the coins within sheets of REALLY heavy, stiff paper.  The others use the cardboard coin mailer.  This package had NO shoring-up.

I once ordered cracked glass records from a record dealer, and they arrived, intact.  He packed those things like a tank.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nerosmyfavorite68

[JayAg47]

That poor little Nero! 

[LONGINUS]

4 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I'm also going to allow myself a cooling off period before contacting the dealer...

My initial anger has mellowed to sadness that a 2,000 year-old artifact has met such an end.

 

I can identify with your range of emotions, @Nerosmyfavorite68!

[ambr0zie]

First, I am very sorry for this. Even if the "near VF" grade is indeed comic, this was a collectable coin, you don't see Nero as Caesar denarii every day. 

8 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I'm also going to allow myself a cooling off period before contacting the dealer,

I don't think this is the best idea. Let me explain why - and this is my point of view. The seller listed an object (picture 1 - the coin is undamaged). It arrived to you (picture 2 - severely bent). So there are 3 possible scenarios:

1. The coin was damaged before they sent it in the envelope. This simply means you received something else, not what you bought. 
2. The coin was damaged in transit. Poor packaging, poor handling, whatever. Now depending on T&C (if the parcel was uninsured, then this is not good news) you can get a refund
3. and I am mentioning this just as a theoretical possibility - you damaged the coin yourself. 

I am sure option 3 is out of the question but if you communicate to them after a few days they might assume this possibility. So what I think it's the best idea - send them an email. Calm and diplomatic of course. But send it quickly. 

Edit - just remembered I also have at least 1 bent/cracked coin. But not the same situation. I remember I was not very happy when opening a package. 

especially since I (slightly) overpaid for this coin. But I checked again the original picture from the auction and yes, the defect is there. Even if it was not mentioned in the description, I felt I was not entitled to request a refund. Not your situation, again

And as a side note - a banknotes collector I know has a habit since forever - when opening a package he films the whole action. Opening the envelope, checking the banknotes for condition, presence of watermarks and all the necessary checks. Including seeing if all the banknotes are there. I asked him why. He mentioned that he had some isolated issues in the past - once he received 7 banknotes instead of 9 and on other occasion the banknote was clearly not UNC, as advertised and the original picture was "convenient".

This might sound paranoid, but this habit can't hurt and would offer the proof for situations like yours. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by ambr0zie

[AETHER]

terrible, looks like a usps truck door closed on the package. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by AETHER

[panzerman]

Sad to see! Imagine if PO damaged a 100K coin. I used to collect rare butterlies/ moths. Many times specimens arrived damaged. However these I can understand/ very delicate. Coins should be sent with proper safeguards/ padded envelopes/ maybe inside little boxes like Roma/ plastic etuies like Künker. I have NEVER had coins damaged in transit/ even 34 mm scyphate Byzantine hyperpyrons/ Huna AV Dinara. I am sending these (my specimens) to Spanish coll. He will then pay one of my coin invoices/ I always pray that the posties pay heed to my, "please handle with care" stickers!!!!! So far I send 300K of set specimens only had damage in one shipment. Less then 450 euros.🤐

John

[ominus1]

O terrible bummer....crystalized and broke...i have one to that to me but it wasn't no Nero like that  😞

[Furryfrog02]

My condolences on your loss. That is rough... I've never had a coin arrive damaged. The closest I've come is a letter arriving with a nice coin-sized tear in in the corner of the envelope where the coin pushed its way through. The seller sent it loose in a plain letter envelope with no padding or anything. 🤡

Luckily, it was just a 50% silver UK half crown. Not worth much. Still a bummer that it is lost forever.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I've had one LOST, a beautiful drachm, ex CNG of Khrusru II.  The Allen Berman order, ordered at the same time, showed up late and mauled, so I pretty much know what happened.

I'll contact them either tonight or saturday at the latest.

However, I want to get a little advice here.  Should I go straight to vcoins management? This was a pretty egregious packing job.

And I know the I damaged it part was only in theory, but I'm not going to destroy my first Nero as Caesar, for 80 lousy bucks.  I'd rather slam my fingers in a car door than damage a coin, even a junker.  It's just unthinkable. It's haunted me, 25 years later, that an inexpensive Sinope coin popped out of my coin tray and hit the (then) hard floor, chipping.  I also wouldn't have been so honest in mentioning that the other packaging was strangely pretty undamaged.  The mailer was also too long,which didn't help. I believe that contributed to the bend.  Floppy and with no shoring-up; recipe for disaster.  It didn't get dropped. I was careful to open it about a couple of inches above the Philco, which was itself covered with padded envelopes because I've been too lazy to clear it.  Had it dropped, there's carpet.  I don't think I'd even have the strength or dexterity to bend something that small.

The HJB Justinian II wasn't the dealer's fault.  The packing wasn't egregiously bad.  It just got caught in some conveyor.  It's ironic how this year has bookended itself.  The first coin I order was nearly destroyed.  It's only a miracle that it survived - it was so small.  The last coin to arrive (because it took forever) was destroyed.

Now that I've retired from record collecting, I haven't spoken to the postman very often, but when I did, I was quite friendly.  I've done nothing to anger him.

I've cooled off and I'll be relatively polite.  People here probably have more experience than I in something like this.  It's incredibly rare that I even return something to the store.  It has to be  defective before I'll do that.

What course of action should I take?  I've just barely got in the door from work.  My coffee's not even finished. I'd at least like to have my dinner before thinking about something stressful which wasn't my fault.

 

[panzerman]

I received three AV coins in mail from Heritage/ Europe (former MPO) First off/ they shipped them as my wishes/ registered letter/ no value/ description. Second/ coins were in cardboard tray (that sticky cardboard) Third/ inside padded envelope. So/ no chance of damage. All I had to do remove them from PCV flips into SAFLIPS. Data labels were also very detailed.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I am flummoxed at the lack of obvious damage to anything else.  The coin was pretty upright when I opened it, i.e. pretty much oriented at 12 o'clock.  Wouldn't the flip and/or cardboard ID tags have been creased?  The receipt wasn't even damaged in any way.

If the coin were crystalized, wouldn't it have snapped?  Because it was destroyed anyway, I pushed on the bend a bit. Nothing. It's not giving an inch.

Wouldn't have whatever force bent that coin also have bent the Philip Dacia provincial as well?

It also seems strange that the dealer would have purposely bent it, for no possible advantage to himself.  I'd imagine that even clamping onto something that small would be very difficult.  The remaining scenarios are that the postman/postal employee bent it purposely (unlikely) or it just happened in transit due to less than stellar packing (most likely).

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I figured out why the longer mailer is probably being used now.  It's easier for them to print out a large customs/address sticker. The safer,  more proper letter sized packages had a small, hand-scrawled customs declaration.

Barring better advice, this is the probable course of action:

Write to LAC in a fairly polite way, explaining what happened, how the coins should be better braced, and why it's not a good idea to use a large mailer for a small amount of coins.  Communication has been spotty at best the few times I had to contact them before (i.e. not easy).  I'm not reallylooking forward to that.  At the very least, I should get a refund.  Although there's plenty to choose from, I'm not sure if store credit is the best option.  I think it's too early to go back and buy something from them. I'm probably steering away from them for a few months.

One of the coins was also in a mini-flip, within the larger flip.  I think it was the Nero.  One would think that would have protected it a little bit.  Neither of the  nesting flips showed obvious damage.  Digging through the basket, I can't determine which one was the original little flip.  There's just too many little flips in there.

 

[lordmarcovan]

6 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Barring better advice, this is the probable course of action:

Write to LAC in a fairly polite way, explaining what happened, how the coins should be better braced, and why it's not a good idea to use a large mailer for a small amount of coins.

 

Agreed.  There is the old saying about "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".  However understandable your anger is, allowing it to taint your communications with the dealer would likely be counterproductive.  Calmly and politely make your case, and hopefully they will make the right gesture (hopefully a refund, or, failing that, a store credit at least).  You might have to return the broken coin.  I dunno.  I hope somebody eventually superglues it.  It's sad to see this minor numismatic tragedy (travesty).

[LONGINUS]

7 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Barring better advice, this is the probable course of action:

Write to LAC in a fairly polite way, explaining what happened...

 

Great approach, @Nerosmyfavorite68!

I would definitely include a sentence or two about how disappointed you were when you opened the damaged package — I would also make them aware that you always handle your coins with care and that you are certain that the damage was not caused by you. I would be very surprised if they fail to give you a refund, credit, or another coin of equal value of your choice. 

Good luck and keep us posted — 🍀

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yes.  I hope there are no problems.  I certainly will involve vcoins management if there are, whatever equivalent the UK has of the Better Business Bureau, etc.

I'm hoping that I wouldn't have to return it.  It's a cheap coin, and I haven't gone to my least favorite place of all, the post office, in a few years.  I wouldn't even know what to put on the customs form.

If they give me problems over that, at least I'll have a permanent 'look what they did' prop.

I suppose the mystery of the relatively pristine packaging will endure.

We'll see.  I probably won't encounter any problems.  I couldn't have made this damage, if I had tried.  Not with my primitive tools.  Holding it in pliers and hammering it,even if that managed to bend it, would have left obvious marks everywhere.

What a pain. Now I'll have to spend half the day composing a letter.

[LONGINUS]

23 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Now I'll have to spend half the day composing a letter.

There are some helpful letter writing websites with templates that might help get you started. One is: https://www.letters.org

[Heliodromus]

13 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

it just happened in transit due to less than stellar packing (most likely).

Yes - combination of packaging and just bad luck. The post office (I'm thinking USPS, but Royal Mail is no different) abuse the mail pretty badly. I've seen them in the UK unloading parcels off a train by just throwing then out onto the concrete platform, and have read numerous comments on Reddit's /r/uspscomplaints by USPS employees casually saying how packages get "destroyed" when other heavy ones are thrown on top of them.

Most mail survives the abuse, but your coin has been very unlucky.

Hopefully LAC will make it right. I don't see how they can reasonably charge for shipping insurance and not cover it. I'd just try a brief poilte letter with photo of coin as received, and request for refund. If they argue it, then involve VCoins.

 

[ewomack]

I agree with @ambr0zie above that, when one receives an item that appears damaged in the post, one should contact the shipper/dealer as soon as possible. Ideally, the same day it arrives. Thankfully, I have yet to received a damaged coin in the mail, but I have received other damaged items. I photograph everything, the package unopened (if the package looks damaged), any internal packaging and then the item itself. This will depend on the damage, of course. I send all of those photos to the shipper as soon as I can. As mentioned above, telling a dealer that "I just received this item and it appears damaged" as soon as possible helps remove suspicions that something may have happened to the item in the intervening days, that the receiver did something careless, or something happened accidentally after the coin was unpacked. I've sold many things online and if someone messaged me that "I received this damaged item five days ago," I would instantly wonder why they waited five days to tell me (unless they included an explanation). The one or two times this did happen, the person contacted me the day that they received it. It unfortunately happens.

It is very deflating to receive something damaged in the mail. It's a huge pain. So, sorry this happened to you @Nerosmyfavorite68. I hope it all works out. I've had no issues ordering with LAC (assuming that we're referring to the same organization), so I'm guessing they will do what they can. Let us know how it turns out.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Well said.  Too bad they couldn't have dropped the package on the Philip side.  This Nero was a cheap way to tick off an aspect of Nero which I didn't really care about, Nero as Caesar.  Now I'll have to go back to square one.

It was more of an I'd-better-get-it-before-its-snapped-up type of buy.  I didn't realize that low-grade denarii of Nero Caesar aren't that expensive.

LAC are sometimes Captain Slows (and I despise their relentless spam - I put that addy on block), but they have great selection and that's where I got my favorite coin of the year, the Cassius. 

I'm hoping for a good outcome. I'd rather not permanently burn the bridge.  Given that it's a cheap coin, I don't think they'll give me trouble.

I'm comforted by a cup of the Italian coffee my parents gifted me.  It's quite smooth.

 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

9 minutes ago, ewomack said:

 

It is very deflating to receive something damaged in the mail. It's a huge pain. So, sorry this happened to you @Nerosmyfavorite68. I hope it all works out. I've had no issues ordering with LAC (assuming that we're referring to the same organization), so I'm guessing they will do what they can. Let us know how it turns out.

Yes, I'll do it today.  Thursday night was consumed by rage and Friday by work, and not wanting to have to deal with something stressful.

Perhaps they'll use this opportunity to go back to the old way of shipping.  I think the scrawled declaration caused it to sit in customs longer, but that's preferable to damaged goods.

[Xeno]

Sorry to hear of your troubles @Nerosmyfavorite68 I haven’t had a coin get destroyed or lost in transport…. Yet. Had an order from Zurqieh earlier this year that spent about 6 weeks in customs. Toward the end I figured it was a goner, hadn’t gotten a shipping update in forever until it eventually just showed up. It is a sad thing to have a piece of history lost or destroyed in such a way, I think it gets to us more than the monetary value (certainly for me). Here is to wishing you no more problems in the shipping department friend. 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yes, it was only 80-something bucks.  I'm much more bummed about the lost history and still not having a Nero Caesar coin.  I can't count this one.

I sent off a polite letter.  The upset had worn off by later on Thursday night, and turned to sadness.  I wanted to get advice what to do and I tend to procrastinate doing stressful things.

Who knows, but I don't think they'll give me trouble.  It's an el cheapo coin.

I don't know if an inner cardboard protector (or equivalent) would have saved the coin, but it wouldn't have hurt. I held one up to the floppy mailer, and it would have fit perfectly in there.

It's still a bit of a mystery what exactly happened, but I guess we'll never know. The coin was in the flip and the crack ran straight across, so whatever hit it presumably did so on the bottom.

Oh, and the package was the only thing in the mailbox.  Nothing heavy was in there.

[sand]

13 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

It's a cheap coin

It's always sad, when a coin is either lost or damaged in the mail. I've had a few coins lost in the mail. And, I've had a few coins, in which the dealer sent a different coin, than what I ordered. Luckily, none of the coins were expensive. 2 of them were in the $100 to $115 range, and the rest were dirt cheap. I only complained once, when a dealer sent multiple incorrect coins to me, all of which were dirt cheap. The dealer wanted me to ship the coins back, in order to get a refund, but the dealer was outside of the US (I live in the US). I didn't want to deal with the hassles, of shipping outside of the US. Therefore, I gave up. After that, I never bothered, trying to get my money back, for any coins, because either the coins were cheap, or the dealer was outside of the US, and I didn't want the hassle of trying to ship coins outside of the US, or I didn't want the hassle of dealing with lost overseas shipments of coins.

Luckily, your coin was relatively inexpensive. Are you in the US? If London Ancient Coins insists that you ship the coin back to them, in order to get a refund or store credit, then you may not want to bother trying to ship the coin outside of the US, because that seems like a hassle.

I've bought many coins from LAC, and everything has always gone smoothly. Maybe, if you tell them about the broken coin, and if other customers have similar complaints, they will ship their coins more carefully in the future, even if the coins are relatively inexpensive.

Edited December 31, 2023 by sand

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yes, I'm in the U.S.  I did mention to them that the cardboard inner protector (or equivalent) which everyone else uses, wouldn't hurt, and the padded mailer is unusually floppy.  I don't remember their letter-sized packages being bad.

My only lost coin was in 2009, an ex-CNG Khrusru II.  After what seemed to be forever, the Allen Berman Byzantine junk box order (ordered at the same time) showed up, badly chewed up. I brought up the situation to Dr. Fishman, but I insisted that we wait a further month for anything to happen.  It never showed up, and he substituted a nice one,but I was deeply bummed at the post office. The original was something special.

I've had worse packaging; an old time radio collector sent me a box of heavy reel-to-reels, but he'd chintz on shipping and use flimsy material.  The empty, exploded box showed up.  For whatever reason, he had a hard time believing it happened.  The bottom (he had reused a liquor box) even had a gap between where the seams met, for corn's sake, and he didn't tape those.  Of course it's going to break.