Defend it….

[Constantivs]

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/yoshua_three_coins/315/product/rr_attractive_drusus_tiberius_ric_42_date_2223_ad_ae_bronze_sestertius_rome_gemellus_germanicus/2008539/Default.aspx
 

 

[DonnaML]

What are you asking to be defended? There's no deception involved. Are you suggesting that dealers shouldn't be allowed to sell coins like this? Even with full disclosure? At any price? 

[Prieure de Sion]

Defend? I think there is nothing to defend. The coin is what it is: "fields smoothed, tooled, overcleaned with multiple clean marks and repatinated".

Some may demonize this and ignore such coins, which is their right! But some people like such preservation and accept such processing. I was thinking about buying the coin myself - or adding it to the shop. I included them in the shop because there is actually only one point that would bother me.

Smoothed - I don't think that's necessarily a negative thing. I don't know of any bronze of this type that isn't smoothed. All coins of this type are smoothed. This is already out. Tooled? Yes, but I can't find anything that reinvented the type or changed it completely. Until then everything is ok for me. But everyone has to decide for themselves whether they can cope with repatination. Personally, I don't know whether I can handle it or not. But I don't want to know how many later patinated coins lie in a collection without knowing.
 
So that you can assess my opinion 😉 ... my shop, my offer - that's what this is about.

[shanxi]

The problem is that you are selling the coin as Extremely fine . EF is a state of preservation, and a tooled coin is never EF. In fact, the state of preservation is worse than before tooling because the original structure has been lost.
The correct designation would be:  Tooled to look like EF

[Prieure de Sion]

44 minutes ago, shanxi said:

The problem is that you are selling the coin as Extremely fine . EF is a state of preservation, and a tooled coin is never EF. In fact, the state of preservation is worse than before tooling because the original structure has been lost.
The correct designation would be:  Tooled to look like EF

I not agree 😉 … because only „extremely fine“ describes only the optical impression. Not the condition - not the preservation.

You can describe a coin as „fantastic“ or „fantastic preservation“ - the first one is generally - the second one says explicitly the preservation was fantastic.

So - extremely fine is subjective, but extremely fine condition - that’s true words from you - are not the best description. 
 

Btw. all auction houses use VF or gVF or EF - even if the coins smoothed or tooled. I don't see much criticism of my offer because I'm not hiding anything! 
 
But I'm happy to accept constructive criticism and will change the description slightly 😉 

 

PS: done... I think so it was ok.

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

Full disclosure is good business sense. Obviously, caveat emptor but at least you know what you are getting when you make the purchase. 

So while I wouldn't buy the coin myself I'm sure others would...

 

[Tejas]

Personally, I would also assume that a coin that is graded EF is not tooled or smoothed. However, I think the descriptions and pictures are very clear and transparent enough to preclude any deception. Also, I wished that this kind of criticism would be presented in a less confrontational way. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Tejas

[kirispupis]

One could debate whether the coin is EF based on the admitted tooling, but it boils down to the fact that the description is entirely honest about the work done. I personally find the coin fascinating (I'm currently reading I, Claudius) but I would never buy it due to the work done.

I do agree that the original post came across quite hostile. Was the OP not aware that the seller commonly contributes on this forum? A much fairer discussion would be to debate how such tooling should affect the pricing of a coin. It would also be worthwhile discussing the quality of the tooling. How much does the coin vary from untooled specimens?

[AussieCollector]

I mean, yea.... ditto to full disclosure etc.

But how can there be that sort of asking price for something heavily cleaned and tooled?! 

Again... I mean... yea... free market and all. But I just can't get over the asking price, given the description.

Edit: I have decided I should change careers

Edited December 18, 2023 by AussieCollector

[kirispupis]

23 minutes ago, AussieCollector said:

But how can there be that sort of asking price for something heavily cleaned and tooled?! 

FWIW, Roma sold an example of nearly the same quality that they claim wasn't tooled for 2x the price.

NAC sold one for even more.

Here's an NAC coin of nearly identical quality that went for a nice 25k!

This is an issue I'd love to own someday, but I'd be thrilled with this example.

But this does bring a healthy debate. To what should a tooled coin be compared? Should it be priced similar to the untooled original (roughly $500), or should it be at a discount from the similar coins that are (claimed to be) untooled? (with these coins going for $3k-$5k)

[Prieure de Sion]

2 hours ago, AussieCollector said:

Edit: I have decided I should change careers

If you want to get grey hair - try it as a (small) retailer, you will be surprised how much nerves it costs and how little profit you often have. A high price does not automatically mean a high profit - because your profit often depends on the price the consignor wants and the possibility of selling the coin. And if you've had a good week, the next week a scammer comes along and ruins all your profits. 

If you think you can make a lot of money as a small dealer in this business, I have to disappoint you.
 

2 hours ago, AussieCollector said:

But how can there be that sort of asking price for something heavily cleaned and tooled?! 

Again... I mean... yea... free market and all. But I just can't get over the asking price, given the description.

I don't mean any offence - but that's because you don't seem to think about what's behind it all - and like some buyers, you only see the high price and think that someone must be making a lot of money.

I'm going to make an outline for you and maybe a few other readers.
 
I'm selling this coin on commission - and the consignor sets the price.

I have to pay 1,200 euros for the coin plus a 20% surcharge (240 euros) plus 20 euros shipping costs. The purchase price for me is therefore 1,460 euros - if I were to sell the coin. If you think you can find good coins for little money the last months, weeks and days - I have to disappoint you. The prices at auctions are high - and even the private consignors know that there are good prices. The bargain that you find a Caligula privately for 100 euros, which you can sell for 2000 euros in the shop - is a pipe dream that no longer exists today. Buying cheap no longer exists.
 
If I sell the coin for 1,799 euros - I have to pay a commission to the shop operator. 
 
The commission for this level of sale is around 100 euros. I still have to pay 19% VAT on this 100 euro commission. So the sales commission is around 120.00 euros.

The buyer pays the shipping costs of 20,00 Euro. But coins over 500 Euro are not insured by FedEx, UPS, DHL EXPRESS and others! Every coin seller has therefore taken out extra value insurance! These insurances cost 10% of the insured value. So if you as the buyer pay for your shipping, I still have to pay an extra amount for the insurance. For the 1,799 euro coin, that's 18 euros for the insurance for shipping.
 
Now let's do the maths.

Price of selling = 1.799 Euro
- 1.460 Euro Purchasing
- 120 Euro Shop fees
- 18 Euro Valoren Insurance
= 201 Euro Profit

But wait - the German state wants my income tax from the profit!  

= 130 Euro real profit after tax

If you want, let's go through a few coins in my shop and I'll tell you the purchase prices of the coins sold and we'll work this out.

Around 150 euros profit for a 1,799 euro coin - do you think that's too much? 🙂 
 
And with this 10% per coin you also have to cover the losses on sales where you made the wrong purchase and made a loss. And with this 10% profit you also have to cover your losses caused by fraudsters in your shop. Every six months you lose 1000, 2000, 3000 or even more euros im average to fraudsters. You first have to recoup this with other coins.
 

2 hours ago, AussieCollector said:

Edit: I have decided I should change careers

Yes, do that! Not just talk! Do it too! When it's so easy to earn money 😉 Ask other dealers about their experiences to see if it's that easy. Do it! And I guarantee you will have some sleepless nights and fear for your capital. 
 
I have one advantage - I have a completely different main job. I am a private collector and sell coins as a "hobby". If I don't sell a coin for 2-3 weeks, I don't care. But if THAT were my main job - I wouldn't be able to sleep peacefully at night.
 
But some people only see big numbers and think, high selling price, you must earn a lot of money. No offence meant - but maybe you don't just see the price with dealers - but also what could be behind it 😉

Edited December 18, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[AussieCollector]

Thanks for the breakdown.

To be clear, I wasn't talking about becoming a seller. I was talking about learning how to tool so that I can.... 'restore' coins with an excessive markup.

[Prieure de Sion]

Just now, AussieCollector said:

To be clear, I wasn't talking about becoming a seller. I was talking about learning how to tool so that I can.... 'restore' coins with an excessive markup.

Oh - that's what happens when you're not a native English speaker 😉 ... but ok, maybe it wasn't for nothing - maybe it shows one or the other reader that trading as a main job is a very hard job (I'm glad it's only my hobby).
 
But as a restorer - yes - maybe you should give it a try. But be careful that nothing like this happens in the end 😄 

 

[AussieCollector]

1 hour ago, kirispupis said:

FWIW, Roma sold an example of nearly the same quality that they claim wasn't tooled for 2x the price.

NAC sold one for even more.

Here's an NAC coin of nearly identical quality that went for a nice 25k!

This is an issue I'd love to own someday, but I'd be thrilled with this example.

But this does bring a healthy debate. To what should a tooled coin be compared? Should it be priced similar to the untooled original (roughly $500), or should it be at a discount from the similar coins that are (claimed to be) untooled? (with these coins going for $3k-$5k)

I am not making comment on the value of this coin specifically, and I have no doubt that there are more extreme examples.

What I'm saying is that I don't value tooled coins in the same way as other coins.

For me, a tooled coin is the value of a origin example, plus a small premium for people who like that sort of thing.

Clearly I am not the intended market for this coin.

[AETHER]

@Prieure de Sionhas been nothing but honest, well mannered, and a serious contributor here. I see nothing but honesty and passion from him. He can sell what he wants, and I can buy what I want, I see no issue.

[Prieure de Sion]

3 minutes ago, AussieCollector said:

I am not making comment on the value of this coin specifically, and I have no doubt that there are more extreme examples.

What I'm saying is that I don't value tooled coins in the same way as other coins.

For me, a tooled coin is the value of a origin example, plus a small premium for people who like that sort of thing.

Clearly I am not the intended market for this coin.

Oh yes, there are some collectors who would like to have a bronze as it was issued (approximately) new at the time. And if the bronze has been smoothed and tooled in the process, they (the collectors) accept this to a certain extent. Provided it is still acceptable in their eyes (which everyone defines differently). But there are simply collectors who collect for "beauty". 
 
I accept this. It's a hobby. Everyone has to know for themselves what they spend money on. Some people buy ships made of matches for a lot of money. Some put money into beer mats and bottle caps. Everyone is an adult and has to know for themselves what they want to spend money on.

By the way, I wouldn't buy the bronze because of the repatination (the smoothing and tooling wouldn't bother me with this coin). But everyone is different. And that's okay too. As written, you just have to honestly communicate the characteristics of a deal. Everyone can then decide for themselves whether they are interested or not.

[Prieure de Sion]

3 minutes ago, AETHER said:

@Prieure de Sionhas been nothing but honest, well mannered, and a serious contributor here. I see nothing but honesty and passion from him. He can sell what he wants, and I can buy what I want, I see no issue.

All good 🙂 ... I have no problem with the discussion. You have to allow and accept something like that - because an honest discussion is also part of it. And as long as we all treat each other with respect here, all discussions on this topic should be allowed.

It's also interesting for me to hear how collectors think about such topics.

[ambr0zie]

I watched this topic and I knew the coin, from the same auction, the one with the gently tooled coin. 

My 2 follis regarding this 

- @Prieure de Sion is a valuable member of this community and I am glad things are clarified. I still suggest he needs to be banned for posting too many expensive coins on NF. But this is a different story. (to avoid any misunderstandings, the last part is a joke)

- I had one purchase from this dealer, after I won a voucher following a contest he hosted here. The transaction was A+, and if I remember correctly he prepared the shipping on a Sunday immediately after I sent him a PM. This was a pleasant surprise, as he treated a customer who paid 40-50 euros with the highest priority. The only reason I haven't purchased again from him (yet) is that I prefer more budget oriented coins. But he is certainly not "highratinglowprice" - for those who know what I mean. Prieure usually has premium coins. 

- looking now at the coin description - it is 100% accurate. If I remember correctly, it was listed as XF/EF. In my opinion this was not OK. Now, the lack of a grade and the clear description of the coin are correct - also in my opinion. And the tricky parts are written clearly and in bold. So - this seller is not trying to advertise something deceiving. It is what it is. And the quick change in description indicates an honest seller. 

- I try not to discuss prices. Especially for a coin that already has controversies. Take it or leave it. Personally I would leave it, but not just for the price, I would prefer a weak VF without interventions such as tooling and fake patina. But this is my personal choice. 

- I can bet that in 5 years the coin will be sold by a different person who will forget to mention that it's tooled and repatinated. But this is not Prieure's fault or something he can control. 

My personal concern regarding this coin was different. I saw the coin in question in a very recent auction - unsold. Immediately it appeared in Joshua Tree Coins offer. So I was wondering if Josua Tree Coins = that auction house. Apparently there are 2 different entities but the same consignor, and this is normal. If these are connected, this is also normal, but perhaps this is the last thing to be clarified. 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by ambr0zie

[Curtisimo]

I’m very happy to have @Prieure de Sionas a fellow member here. He has been very generous with his time and knowledge when I have asked him questions. I haven’t bought anything from his store but I expect that I will eventually.

[El Cazador]

4 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

If you want to get grey hair - try it as a (small) retailer, you will be surprised how much nerves it costs and how little profit you often have. A high price does not automatically mean a high profit - because your profit often depends on the price the consignor wants and the possibility of selling the coin. And if you've had a good week, the next week a scammer comes along and ruins all your profits. 

If you think you can make a lot of money as a small dealer in this business, I have to disappoint you.
 

I don't mean any offence - but that's because you don't seem to think about what's behind it all - and like some buyers, you only see the high price and think that someone must be making a lot of money.

I'm going to make an outline for you and maybe a few other readers.
 
I'm selling this coin on commission - and the consignor sets the price.

I have to pay 1,200 euros for the coin plus a 20% surcharge (240 euros) plus 20 euros shipping costs. The purchase price for me is therefore 1,460 euros - if I were to sell the coin. If you think you can find good coins for little money the last months, weeks and days - I have to disappoint you. The prices at auctions are high - and even the private consignors know that there are good prices. The bargain that you find a Caligula privately for 100 euros, which you can sell for 2000 euros in the shop - is a pipe dream that no longer exists today. Buying cheap no longer exists.
 
If I sell the coin for 1,799 euros - I have to pay a commission to the shop operator. 
 
The commission for this level of sale is around 100 euros. I still have to pay 19% VAT on this 100 euro commission. So the sales commission is around 120.00 euros.

The buyer pays the shipping costs of 20,00 Euro. But coins over 500 Euro are not insured by FedEx, UPS, DHL EXPRESS and others! Every coin seller has therefore taken out extra value insurance! These insurances cost 10% of the insured value. So if you as the buyer pay for your shipping, I still have to pay an extra amount for the insurance. For the 1,799 euro coin, that's 18 euros for the insurance for shipping.
 
Now let's do the maths.

Price of selling = 1.799 Euro
- 1.460 Euro Purchasing
- 120 Euro Shop fees
- 18 Euro Valoren Insurance
= 201 Euro Profit

But wait - the German state wants my income tax from the profit!  

= 130 Euro real profit after tax

If you want, let's go through a few coins in my shop and I'll tell you the purchase prices of the coins sold and we'll work this out.

Around 150 euros profit for a 1,799 euro coin - do you think that's too much? 🙂 
 
And with this 10% per coin you also have to cover the losses on sales where you made the wrong purchase and made a loss. And with this 10% profit you also have to cover your losses caused by fraudsters in your shop. Every six months you lose 1000, 2000, 3000 or even more euros im average to fraudsters. You first have to recoup this with other coins.
 

Yes, do that! Not just talk! Do it too! When it's so easy to earn money 😉 Ask other dealers about their experiences to see if it's that easy. Do it! And I guarantee you will have some sleepless nights and fear for your capital. 
 
I have one advantage - I have a completely different main job. I am a private collector and sell coins as a "hobby". If I don't sell a coin for 2-3 weeks, I don't care. But if THAT were my main job - I wouldn't be able to sleep peacefully at night.
 
But some people only see big numbers and think, high selling price, you must earn a lot of money. No offence meant - but maybe you don't just see the price with dealers - but also what could be behind it 😉

So why do it then? 😃

[Prieure de Sion]

3 hours ago, El Cazador said:

So why do it then? 😃

Do you think I'll be doing this for much longer 😉 ...?

[Prieure de Sion]

3 hours ago, Curtisimo said:

I’m very happy to have @Prieure de Sionas a fellow member here. He has been very generous with his time and knowledge when I have asked him questions. I haven’t bought anything from his store but I expect that I will eventually.

Of course, you always have to realise that I have the advantage and privilege of having my shop more as a hobby and am not dependent on any income! It's great when you can generously write "no problem, I'll change the text" or "no problem, I'll delete the coin from the offer". This sounds so great and honest. But guys - I don't have to sell anything either - I have no constraints and no pressure to buy my rent or my food. It's nice - but I'm no saint and no angel ... I just have it easy to do this the way I want. 

😉 

 

But enough of this topic.

But what is interesting about this thread - I would be interested to know - where do you think the limit is for a coin? 
 
Would you prefer something "less beautiful" but hardly treated and therefore more genuine?
 
Or do you also accept smoothing and tooling (as long as the original is not destroyed or reinvented)? In return, is the coin aesthetically beautiful for you?
 
Who also accepts re-patinating?

This is just one example - but such coins as new and sometimes simply beautiful to look at are only possible after 2000 years if they have been worked (unless they are found preserved, which is extremely rare or impossible).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/26659769680

Beauty - at what acceptable price (of processing) for you? And who dares to speak honestly about it? Because it is often bought - but not readily admitted?

 

 

[robinjojo]

'Tis a well traveled path my friends.  I could use a little smoothing and tooling but I don't think Medicare or Kaiser covers that!

With ancients I see the issue as a matter of degree, since virtually all have been "processed" in one way or another.  I think the full disclosure of the sestertius's condition is laudatory and something that I wished many other dealers and auction houses would use as a model. 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

10 hours ago, kirispupis said:

FWIW, Roma sold an example of nearly the same quality that they claim wasn't tooled for 2x the price.

NAC sold one for even more.

Here's an NAC coin of nearly identical quality that went for a nice 25k!

This is an issue I'd love to own someday, but I'd be thrilled with this example.

But this does bring a healthy debate. To what should a tooled coin be compared? Should it be priced similar to the untooled original (roughly $500), or should it be at a discount from the similar coins that are (claimed to be) untooled? (with these coins going for $3k-$5k)

…The authentic examples in original, pristine condition with lovely original patinas will be worth many a factor more than this tooled example. Its almost irrelevant to point towards the finest known examples of the type and their hammers and then justify a coin so tooled its barely even original. 

[Limes]

8 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Oh - that's what happens when you're not a native English speaker 😉 ... but ok, maybe it wasn't for nothing - maybe it shows one or the other reader that trading as a main job is a very hard job (I'm glad it's only my hobby).
 
But as a restorer - yes - maybe you should give it a try. But be careful that nothing like this happens in the end 😄 

 

I remember when this came in the news. Sad, and hilarious at the same time.

The elderly women who did it had not bad intentions, and was "misguided". Would these words also apply to some of the people tooling ancient coins...? "Sorry, it got out of hand, but there was no bad intention..."