On Biddr (and similar platforms) can you aggregate the wins of a particular (aggressive in this case) bidder?

[Deinomenid]

There's one  increasingly  notorious  Greek bidder who  keeps driving a truck through certain auctions, with  what appears to be wild and indiscriminate bidding on not  particularly scarce coins. Some auction houses keep the same  bidder  number for the same  person so I've come  to  know and recognize who this person is immediately and usually  just stop even watching. This is not to lament prices as the market  is the market and  he always needs an  underbidder,  but just to see if my impression  of  it not worth competing when he is around  is right. My impression is  by value he can be  up to  50% of an auction's total $ sales but  I may be  misleading myself -  can I search the bidding sites to see or do  I just have to manually write down the bidder numbers through an auction and add it up?

Just as an example, this bidder (6984 at Nomos) was bidding across the  whole  lengthy auction, across  price and quality ranges, style, geography etc this morning. Good luck to  him  if  he loves everything and can afford  it - all I want to know is statistically if my impressions are correct, and to spend my time elsewhere when he's (it is a he) clicking away. As an aside, the auctioneer (I assume, or someone very close to the mike) was (incredibly) openly  laughing  at some of his bids, muttering "holy hell", and  on occasion  saying surely  no-one else  is  bidding more for  this...oh wait.

Just for fun, here's an example of a CHF450 estimate diobol from Corinth that went for ten thousand  francs to said bidder 6984. It's rare and described as such (not very rare at all) and they come  up not infrequently (this one is ex-BCD so usually these have a small premium for that).  I'm no great expert and there may be something special  I can't discern  but this is one example of many.

Many thanks for any help!

 

[ambr0zie]

You can't see who exactly is bidding on Biddr. 

Here are some results from the last auction I participated in, on Biddr. 

I was "Bidder 5" on this coin. 

I was the winner on this one - I am "Bidder 1"

When the coin is live, you can only see what is the latest bid and what is the channel (live/pre/proxy). The bidder numbers are allocated according to the value of the maximum bid. 

So no, as a user there is no way to see if who is bidding is the same one who bid 2 lots ago or 3 weeks ago. 

[Ryro]

I saw CRAZY #s at Nomos as well! Though, I didn't notice which bidders were doing it. Of course it takes two to bid up a coin. Some guys just have more dollars then sense. 

I wonder if it was the same rich dude at Nomos who paid 1,400 chf?!?!, before the juice on this fun but not great nor super rare coin type: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nomos/browse?a=3979&l=4682170

I bought mine for $180 at CNG and it has more detail on the monkey then the coin that cost nearly ten times that this morning:

Edited November 5, 2023 by Ryro

[Rand]

I am unaware of a method to aggregate purchases from a bidder. Auction houses are unlikely to be keen on this, not to discourage underbidders. I used to like old-style CNG bidding with aliases. It was later removed.

During my collecting lifetime, there were a few new avid collectors who made some of my collecting areas suddenly too competitive. I had to buy coins, which I deemed too rare to miss, at multiples of the estimates. In contrast, after losing bids, I purchased a few coins much cheaper when resold.

My learning point was that enthusiastic, deep-pocketed collectors tend to lose their interest soon, and sometimes, I should accept this, shift focus, and wait. For example, early medieval Burgundian coins (especially with Gundobad’s monogram) are tough to compete for right now - I am waiting and focus on the Goths.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Rand

[Deinomenid]

18 minutes ago, Ryro said:

I wonder if it was the same rich dude at Nomos

Ha! Yes  I think that  was  him. I have similar too for $200 plus juice. It's jaw-dropping stuff  - it got to be almost entertaining, it was so bad.

19 minutes ago, Rand said:

bidding with aliases.

Nomos show aliases for prebids and clearly announce the winner. "NomosMember7854 (2 bids)" "USTC (1 bids)" etc just plucked at random from today and then they clearly announce the winner's number (after they have finished squabbling between themselves!). Others  you can tell quite easily from their bidders - eg this particular person uses a broker called Peter in other auctions who the auctioneers refer to  by name, so  I assume a bigwig.  I completely agree @Rand about shifting and waiting, it's just that  this bidder is indiscriminate - it's EVERYTHING Greek from  tiny lowish quality coins like the one in  @Ryro's link to some of the world-class  beauties at  Morton and Eden a few weeks ago.

I'll just learn to stay away if I sense his presence I think! 

[Rand]

3 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

notorious  Greek bidder

I did not know Greeks were allowed to possess ancient Greek coins in Greece. I remember bidding at NAC (online) for a Greek friend, a casual collector, who visited me and kept the winning until he emigrated from Greece. Possibly, the rules are different for coins bought abroad - otherwise, BCD would not be able to keep his coins in Greece (my assumption).

Edited November 5, 2023 by Rand

[Deinomenid]

Sorry, that was shorthand for bidder on Greek coins. He's apparently American-based.

 

[El Cazador]

8 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Sorry, that was shorthand for bidder on Greek coins. He's apparently American-based.

 

And why there is a need to aggregate this info, if you don’t mind me asking?

The bidder with more cash wins, so what’s the point to try and identify who this is?

[Deinomenid]

1 hour ago, El Cazador said:

you don’t mind me asking?

I don't mind at all. I hoped  I explained  it in the first post,  but briefly, if I know this person is  bidding and  I know  he tends to win  40% (say)  of an auction  then I can  go play somewhere else. I don't begrudge anyone  their right to spend their money (not necessarily the one with most  cash but the one choosing to spend  in a given way).

[El Cazador]

16 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

I don't mind at all. I hoped  I explained  it in the first post,  but briefly, if I know this person is  bidding and  I know  he tends to win  40% (say)  of an auction  then I can  go play somewhere else. I don't begrudge anyone  their right to spend their money (not necessarily the one with most  cash but the one choosing to spend  in a given way).

I see a point, good call out - thank you!

[JayAg47]

Sorry it was me! I recently won the lottery and went on a binge. /s

[Limes]

Maybe you can ask biddr? I thought someone of biddr visited this forum, but dont remember the user name. 

My experience is that bid are not the same for every auction, at least some of the auctions i attend online. Maybe its different with biddr.

But erratic behaviour can be spotted quite early during an auction, maybe. So you could draw a conclusion then, sit back, and enjoy the doofus purchases being made 😁

[Furryfrog02]

Question - And I may be wat out in left field here...but could this be a case of money laundering? It sounds like what people in the "art world" do when they are trying to clean up dirty money. Why else would someone spend that many multiples over what a coin is "worth"? I guess there are people who have more money than sense. I wish I was one of them.

[ambr0zie]

49 minutes ago, Furryfrog02 said:

a case of money laundering

Yes, it could be. 

There is a certain auction house, but you never heard of it and you never will. And nobody lost anything. 

Some examples of their great auctions:

.

These coins were sold in auctions that were both floor + online. And live streaming. I saw the "bidders" and I am not joking when I say I saw better actors in my life - some of them were my colleagues from the kindergarten. 

2 possibilities here - 1. money laundering 2. bad taste acting, to make noobs think these are the prices for common ancient coins and perhaps 1-2 noobs can "bid". 

-----------------------

On a different occasion I saw a Greek fraction in a (serious) auction house. Nothing special about it but I saw an aggressive bidding war. OK.... I checked again to see if I am missing something - I didn't. 

On the next auction from the same house, the same coin appeared .... in a cheap group lot! 

I emailed the auction house asking what happened. Their reply - after publishing the auction, the consignor changed his mind so the house performed the bid themselves, to win the coin, so they could return it to the consignor. This makes sense but for me it was a red flag. 

Not sure who performed the bids AGAINST the auction house as that person really insisted. 

[Prieure de Sion]

1 hour ago, Furryfrog02 said:

Question - And I may be wat out in left field here...but could this be a case of money laundering? It sounds like what people in the "art world" do when they are trying to clean up dirty money. Why else would someone spend that many multiples over what a coin is "worth"? I guess there are people who have more money than sense. I wish I was one of them.

Of course, this is pure speculation and you have to be careful not to overshoot the mark here. 

Nevertheless. The fact that there is money laundering or attempts to get rid of "dirty money" is no secret and nothing new in general. In all areas. Property, works of art - why not coins? 

Over the last two weeks, one of our customers has ordered coins indiscriminately from all kinds of dealers. All kinds of coins from all kinds of dealers - including mine. I have not recognised any numismatic sense behind all the orders - they are coins from all directions. I received an order from a customer in Dubai using a credit card from Saudi Arabia - according to local IP information from my CC operator, he placed the order in Africa. The coin that was ordered from me was then to be delivered to a European address. 

That was all too much for me - and I cancelled the order. Sometimes it's better to stay out of things like that. 

Now you can't lump all customers together who come from the Middle East! Of course not! But especially in the current situation, I'm cautious about such things. I don't want to end up being dragged into any investigations because of a few lousy dollars earned...

[Hesiod]

On 11/5/2023 at 11:46 AM, Deinomenid said:

just have to manually write down the bidder numbers through an auction and add it up?

You have to do it manually unfortunately. I wasn't paying attention to bidder numbers this time around but the sale didn't feel nearly as heinous as the previous one

[kirispupis]

Some time ago there was an auction we discussed that seemed pretty likely to be money laundering. The primary owner of the auction house had been arrested a few years prior for money laundering. Interestingly, I don't see their auctions any more...

In the case of the latest Nomos, I'm of the opinion we have the good old fashioned idiot with too much money on his hands...

That being said, this one wasn't nearly as bad ad the last. I lost the one coin I bid on in Nomos 29, but the winning bid wasn't too outrageous. I actually won one of the two coins I bid on in Nomos 30!

The big thing I've noticed with these bidders who are just going crazy is they tend to stick to certain auctions. Therefore, I'm often able to procure a similar/better coin with some patience at another house or sometimes even on VCoins.