New Harlan J. Berk Sale (# 224) begins, including Curtis Clay Collection Part 1

[Orfew]

24 minutes ago, Jay GT4 said:

+1

 

I'm glad if nobody sees the importance of the Clay collection, more for us that do! 

Indeed so! Please everyone else ignore this provenance. It is not important at all. Okay sarcasm off.

This is one of the most important collections of Flavian rarities I have ever seen. There were many PONT denarii of Domitian in this sale. There have been times when I have waited more than a year for one to come to auction. This is a world class collection and it’s like may not come to market again for years.

[Rand]

28 minutes ago, Orfew said:

Indeed so! Please everyone else ignore this provenance. It is not important at all. Okay sarcasm off.

While it is the choice of coins that makes collections important, the fact that a passionate academic collector has selected coins over decades speaks for itself. I enjoyed checking the selection, even though they are outside my prime interest.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Rand

[Salomons Cat]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:39 PM, David Atherton said:

The coins from the Curtis Clay collection will only appeal to specialists and those who love rare varieties. All others will probably think they are overpriced and look elsewhere. 

This here is the key point. 
In order to appreciate something, we first need the context. But even if we know the context and really appreciate a certain coin, more often than not it would not fit into our collection. This is just a consequence of having different foci of collecting. And we should all be happy that it is like this. 

[Orfew]

19 minutes ago, Rand said:

While it is the choice of coins that make collections important, the fact that a passionate academic collector has selected coins over decades speaks for itself. I enjoyed checking the selection, even though they are outside my prime interest.

While I respect your opinion I must disagree. Check out the auctions where the collections of famous individuals come across the block. In many cases the association will demand higher prices. There are times where the collector is an important factor in who bids for coins and how much they will pay. Have you tried to get a coin from the John Adams collection lately? Augustus was said to have been a coin collector. Are you telling me that a coin once owned by Augustus should not have a premium over a similar coin not owned by him? Famous collections attract attention from collectors because of a mystique connected to an object once owned by a particular person or because of the quality of the curation involved in assembling the colllection.

[Rand]

9 hours ago, Orfew said:

Have you tried to get a coin from the John Adams collection lately?

We have debated provenances extensively on this forum and agreed that provenances are important, but different collectors value them differently. 

I value find provenances and would pay just for them for some coins, even without being able to buy coins themselves. I value pre-60th photographic provenances for authenticity's sake, but I would not pay extra for a personality collecting them. There may be some personalities I am fond of, which might make me pay a premium, but this is uncommon. There may be exceptions, these are not hard rules. I am fond of the Curtis Clay's collection.

Sorry, I do not follow John Adams's collection.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rand

[El Cazador]

2 hours ago, Orfew said:

I don’t remember anyone asking you to do so. Personally, I think he got that coin cheap. It is the only one I have seen appear at auction in 10 years. Why don’t you find a cheaper one and post it here?

@OrfewGod speed , you are capable of doing simple Google look up or CNG search, no?

Edited July 24, 2023 by El Cazador

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

With all due respect to all parties, I also had a chuckle at the initial prices.  However, at some point we should probably cool it somewhat.  We all respect Dr. Clay's service and we should keep his feelings in mind.

 

[Phil Davis]

2 hours ago, El Cazador said:

@OrfewGod speed , you are capable of doing simple Google look up or CNG search, no?

You've completely missed @Orfew's point. Your laugh emojis really aren't the witty, insightful debating point you think they are.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Phil Davis

[El Cazador]

18 minutes ago, Phil Davis said:

You've completely missed @Orfew's point. Your laugh emojis really aren't the witty, insightful debating point you think they are.

Ok

[Al Kowsky]

20 hours ago, Qcumbor said:

I understand not being able to read the whole Emperor's name is an issue,, anyway I'm glad I could afford the the following despite (or because) the lack of some letters 🙂 

Q

Q, That's a wonderful denarius of Otho 😮, the portrait is of the finest style & the reverse is of equal quality.

[Al Kowsky]

Much has been said about provenance & rarity on this thread, however, those two factors have nothing to with value, strange as that may seem 🤔. The deciding factors that determine value are supply & demand. The best example I can think of is the EID MAR denarius issued by Brutus, that commemorates the murder of Julius Caesar. There are approximately 80 known examples of this denarius, & for an ancient coin type this is not rare. So why are collectors willing to pay over $200,000 for a nice looking example in very fine condition, supply & demand. Every collector of Roman coins would love to have an example of this historic coin ☺️. Pictured below are two interesting coins I sold at auction. The first coin came from the famous Hunt collection of Byzantine coins, that he was forced to sell after trying to corner the silver bullion market with Saudi high-rollers. With a provenance from the Hunt collection this common but handsome bronze fetched only $288.00 at auction 😒. The second coin came from the personal collection of Richard McAlee, & is illustrated in the important reference book that he authored The Coins of Roman Antioch. This is a Very Rare coin with no more than 5 examples known, & despite it's rarity & provenance it sold for only $79.00 😮!

[KenDorney]

Seems all the good discussions happen when I am away!  Some thoughts to address things that have been asked so far:

Who is Curtis?  Some say it doesnt matter.  in essence I suppose I agree.  But the question seems to be how is a coin from Curtis worth more than elsewhere?  His insane knowledge of ancient coins.  His attention to detail in research.  Of course one can be guaranteed that if he says it is rare or unique, it is.

Why high prices?  Many reasons, many of which would not be appreciated by some.  The Berk family has typically focused on very high grade coins.  In such cases one can always ask a high price as such coins are often scarce to rare, even if the type is common.  Back in the old days when Tom Cederlind was mentoring me in the business he pointed this out.  Sure, one can get a common type in average grade for say $100, but in some circumstances the same coin in EF or mint state is incredibly rare.

Why is he and others selling out now?  Again many factors but I'm guessing any collectors age and the overall market will drive this.  If I was smart I'd sell my collection now, and consign to Leu.  They get crazy prices, and there are a few billionaires in the hobby at the moment (and many other lesser wealthy collectors).  This is driving the prices way up.  BUT, while I do consider myself to be reasonably smart I wont be selling anytime soon.  Maybe another 10 years.  I want to enjoy them a bit longer!

And of course, a lot of talk here about value, price, rarity, etc.  Every collector tends to see coins just a bit different than others, in many cases completely differently.  This is probably the primary reason why a coin may sell in one spot for say $25, but elsewhere for $500.  And of course it does the other way around as well.  I've seen coins sell very high at auction and a year later sell for half or less.

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, KenDorney said:

Why is he and others selling out now?  Again many factors but I'm guessing any collectors age and the overall market will drive this.  If I was smart I'd sell my collection now, and consign to Leu.  They get crazy prices, and there are a few billionaires in the hobby at the moment (and many other lesser wealthy collectors).  This is driving the prices way up.  BUT, while I do consider myself to be reasonably smart I wont be selling anytime soon.  Maybe another 10 years.  I want to enjoy them a bit longer!

One thing I find curious is collectors who sell their collections when they reach a certain age. Perhaps I haven't reached an age to understand, but I have no intentions of selling off my collection before I pass. I've brought these coins together to enjoy and learn from them and I intend to continue that pursuit until my last breath.

I've already made it clear to my family that one of my sons will inherit my coin and stamp collections and the other will receive my photography equipment, photos, and published/unpublished books.

My hope is that my son will keep the collection together and it will pass on to descendants who will see them as an intimate statement from a family member they didn't know. If he chooses to sell them, I've already directed him to this site for expertise on how to do so. I can't say I'll be disappointed at the situation, because at that point I won't care.

[Rand]

It is always sad when long-time collectors willingly decide to part with their life passions. Often this means reaching the stage of their life when the sparkle of desire and hunt is gone - a grim sign that it is time to spend more time with them.

NB! This observation has nothing to do with the collection we discuss.

Being a collector is a personality trait - passing it to children is random, and most people do not have it. Family collections are not that common, I think. It would be interesting to know how many people on the forum have inherited their hobby.

[DonnaML]

On the Facebook ancient coins group, it has been suggested that this coin (see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/cc/102485 ):

is not only a cast reproduction, but has an "R" for "reproduction" stamped at about 1 o'clock on the obverse. I suggested that perhaps it's just a countermark, but most disagreed.

What say the experts here?

[Rand]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:55 PM, John Conduitt said:

Ffs. R for rare? 😂
https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/ancient-coins/102485?fromBbs=224th Buy Or Bid Sale

Earlier on the thread, by @John Conduitt 

[John Conduitt]

33 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

On the Facebook ancient coins group, it has been suggested that this coin (see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/cc/102485😞

is not only a cast reproduction, but has an "R" for "reproduction" stamped at about 1 o'clock on the obverse. I suggested that perhaps it's just a countermark, but most disagreed.

What say the experts here?

More accurately described as an Amorican Silver Stater, and yours for £3.49 from Museum Reproductions.




As for paying $250+, you can get one from Den of Antiquity for £165.

Edited July 24, 2023 by John Conduitt

[DonnaML]

13 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

More accurately described as an Amorican Silver Stater, and yours for £3.49 from Museum Reproductions.




As for paying $250+, you can get one from Den of Antiquity for £165.

I'm still confused. Is that really an "R" for reproduction, or not?

[Limes]

Before this is misinterpreted, or misread; english is not my native language so I might have missed something. But here's my two cents (and do read it with this great Louis van Gaal accent in your head (not his attitude though)). 

I've missed the part where anybody said the Clay collection is not important. I think the discussion was more about rarity and provenance vis a vis what is a coin worth. I think it comes down to two things; what is your personal collecting preference and what is your budget. My example at the first post, was that I personally wont (and, budget wise, cant) spend 1.000/1.500 on a Claudius middle bronze. To me, its not worth it, even though it's from the collection of Curtis (I acknowledge his effort for the hobby/profession!), and the legend is extremely rare or unique. I can imagine though, as is with other coins, that certain collectors will enjoy that coin and think it is worth it. As will certain collectors enjoy the RIC plate coin of Domitian, or coins of Domitian with PONT in the legend. As will certain collectors want to add coins of Curtis to the collection, because of that provenance. And I think we can all establish that provenance has become very important and that the provenance 'of the collection of Curtis Clay' is definitely worth a premium. Collecting preferences and budget lead to purchases some would make, and some would not. Some think it is absolutely worth it, and some will not. I will not judge that, and I dont think anyone should. (Except for perhaps the obvious dufus (?) purchases, even though one could argue that that buyer believes it's worth it, so one should not judge that.)

And @Rand: nope, nothing inherited here. And I will not push my kids to take an interest in my collection. It's my hobby, I chose it, they did not. What they want to do with it once I'm gone is completely up to them. If they sell it, they sell it. Which is fine, it's how it goes in life I believe. 

[John Conduitt]

32 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I'm still confused. Is that really an "R" for reproduction, or not?

Yes. This exact coin is a replica sold as such by Museum Reproductions (as in the photo I posted above), although the one on their website lacks the R. But it is a museum replica, and R stands for reproduction, as on this replica Durotriges stater. You're not allowed to sell them in the UK without something like it.

This is from the Museum Reproductions website FAQs:
You stamp all your reproductions with a small letter 'R', or word 'COPY' can this be left off my copies? In brief, No. Our reproductions are very realistic and there are many unscrupulous people about. The 'COPY' is stamped on the coin or artefact to denote the fact that it is a reproduction and, although it is quite small, it will be spotted by a dealer or collector. We would never risk our reputation by omitting to stamp the 'COPY' even if requested to do so. The small letter 'R' is stamped on coins that are too small to accomodate the word 'COPY'.

The Celts did not use countermarks. The Romans did, but I've never seen them use a single R, and usually their countermarks are raised letters in an incuse box, like this:

Claudius Sestertius, 50-54

Bronze. Head of Claudius, laureate, right; TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP P P. Spes, draped, advancing left, holding flower in right hand and raising skirt with left; SPES AVGVSTA S C; countermark NCAPR. Found Navenby, Lincolnshire.

Edited July 24, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Salomons Cat]

Well, the cast museum reproduction is a bit unfortunate... 
I don't know Curtis Clay because I'm too new here (or too uneducated) - but I think that it's without question that this does not devalue an outstanding collection and a lifetime of contributions to numismatics. 
Apart from that, I assume that it should have been Harlan J. Berk's job to spot it.

[John Conduitt]

44 minutes ago, Salomons Cat said:

Well, the cast museum reproduction is a bit unfortunate... 
I don't know Curtis Clay because I'm too new here (or too uneducated) - but I think that it's without question that this does not devalue an outstanding collection and a lifetime of contributions to numismatics. 
Apart from that, I assume that it should have been Harlan J. Berk's job to spot it.

Yes we should be clear that the Celtic stater was not part of Curtis Clay's collection, it's just in the same sale. His are lots 1-199. He's well known for spotting fakes and wouldn't miss an R put there expressly to tell you it's a fake. Anything that was in his collection is less likely to be a replica than a slabbed coin.

Edited July 24, 2023 by John Conduitt

[DCCR]

3 hours ago, DonnaML said:

On the Facebook ancient coins group, it has been suggested that this coin (see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/cc/102485😞

is not only a cast reproduction, but has an "R" for "reproduction" stamped at about 1 o'clock on the obverse. I suggested that perhaps it's just a countermark, but most disagreed.

What say the experts here?

It's a reproduction. The post had the link to the sales page for the reproduction

https://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/shop/viewitem.php?productid=319

[EDIT I should have read to the end before answering. John already gave the link]

Edited July 24, 2023 by DCCR

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I'm still confused. Is that really an "R" for reproduction, or not?

Most of these staters were crudely made & are easy to fake. The coin pictured below I sold to a collector on the Coin Talk website a couple of years ago. If the coin wasn't slabbed it would be difficult to sell at a fair price 😉.

[NewStyleKing]

Curtis Clay is an highly educated respected scholar and is recognised as advancing numismatics considerably. So not just a coin collector with a good eye. He did  look out for rarities and studied them and published them. He once before had a marvellous collection which he sold to the BM in the good ol' days, nowadays this probably would not be allowed by the Zealots residing there. Maybe, I don't know, most would be with eBay as the only source. ( ie, eBay name, date of purchase etc,)  and the only valued source would be Curtis Clay !

His annotated books are invaluable.

How do I know this....because I try to read any posts by CC where he freely shares his vast knowledge.