New Harlan J. Berk Sale (# 224) begins, including Curtis Clay Collection Part 1

[Kaleun96]

On 7/24/2023 at 4:30 PM, Al Kowsky said:

Much has been said about provenance & rarity on this thread, however, those two factors have nothing to with value, strange as that may seem 🤔. The deciding factors that determine value are supply & demand. 

Provenance and rarity can have *something* to do with value, they just aren't the only things that influence value. They may not always have the same effect on value either, as is evident by coins coming from important collections vs those coming from a random collector. Both rarity and provenance affect the supply side of the equation too. You can have low supply and low demand (as you demonstrate in your examples), low supply and high demand (Eid Mar), high supply and low demand, and high supply and high demand (Caesar elephant denarii, Athenian tetradrachms etc).

If provenance had nothing to do with demand (and supply), then we wouldn't see crazy prices for coins with very old or very interesting provenances. The important bit to remember is that not all provenances are equal.

[David Atherton]

1 hour ago, NewStyleKing said:

... which he sold to the BM in the good ol' days, nowadays this probably would not be allowed by the Zealots residing there.

[John Conduitt]

24 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Provenance and rarity can have *something* to do with value, they just aren't the only things that influence value. They may not always have the same effect on value either, as is evident by coins coming from important collections vs those coming from a random collector. Both rarity and provenance affect the supply side of the equation too. You can have low supply and low demand (as you demonstrate in your examples), low supply and high demand (Eid Mar), high supply and low demand, and high supply and high demand (Caesar elephant denarii, Athenian tetradrachms etc).

If provenance had nothing to do with demand (and supply), then we wouldn't see crazy prices for coins with very old or very interesting provenances. The important bit to remember is that not all provenances are equal.

Yes provenance very much impacts supply and demand, and so value. The supply of particular coin in a particular hoard might be 3 coins, so it makes it a 'limited edition' of that coin. Demand is also higher, for all the reasons outlined many times on the forum. But we're not talking about huge value, or even doubling the value of the coin. For a provenance to have the same value as an Eid Mar, it would have to be the best provenance imaginable. Like a coin Julius Caesar had in his hand when he was stabbed.

To be honest, I don't really care all that much for the Eid Mar. If everyone was like me it might be worth $3,000 or so 🤣 Its interest for me is only in the huge interest everyone else has for it, but I don't see that value in it. A bit like the Mona Lisa. I've been to see it - twice now - because everyone goes to see it, but it's really not all that remarkable. Demand feeds on hype, which is far more nebulous and fleeting than provenance.

[Roman Collector]

50 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Yes provenance very much impacts supply and demand, and so value. The supply of particular coin in a particular hoard might be 3 coins, so it makes it a 'limited edition' of that coin. Demand is also higher, for all the reasons outlined many times on the forum. But we're not talking about huge value, or even doubling the value of the coin. For a provenance to have the same value as an Eid Mar, it would have to be the best provenance imaginable. Like a coin Julius Caesar had in his hand when he was stabbed.

To be honest, I don't really care all that much for the Eid Mar. If everyone was like me it might be worth $3,000 or so 🤣 Its interest for me is only in the huge interest everyone else has for it, but I don't see that value in it. A bit like the Mona Lisa. I've been to see it - twice now - because everyone goes to see it, but it's really not all that remarkable. Demand feeds on hype, which is far more nebulous and fleeting than provenance.

I blame Shakespeare in particular for the popularity of the coin. Had the bard not written, "A soothsayer bids you beware the ides of March," the demand for the coin would be far less, IMO. How much of the mystique around Caesar's assassination comes from Suetonius and how much from Shakespeare?

[John Conduitt]

20 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

I blame Shakespeare in particular for the popularity of the coin. Had the bard not written, "A soothsayer bids you beware the ides of March," the demand for the coin would be far less, IMO. How much of the mystique around Caesar's assassination comes from Suetonius and how much from Shakespeare?

Yes anything Shakespeare touched is similarly hyped. As with the popularity of a balcony in Verona, which is definitely not the balcony where the fictional Juliet stood talking to the fictional Romeo, but everyone still goes there. There wasn't even a balcony in Shakepeare at all, as it was Thomas Otway's Roman version of the play that created that scene - "Caius Marius, Caius Marius, wherefore art thou, Caius Marius". Not to be confused with Gaius Marius, Caesar's uncle, of course.

[NewStyleKing]

But, despite Shakespeare, the assassination of Gaius Julius Caesar was a seismic event at the time and seemingly since! To have been produced and then to be written of is unique in world ancient history, except the Eid Mar type was echoed by a unique coin of the Civil Wars period c 100 later! The copy was sold in the last few years of civil wars coinage to stunned silence!

It's like the Basileus Mithradates Athens NewStyle/Aristion coinage with Pontic star and 2 crescents  prescining/fortelling  ( what is that word?) the end of free  Athens and generally the whole Greek world.

And even better , one such Bas Mith coin being trumped with a deleted Pontic symbol by a Headdress of Isis which I have called a Roman rallying symbol after the disastrous Mithradatic siege of Rhodes hastened by the epiphany of Isis herself! 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by NewStyleKing

[John Conduitt]

3 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

But, despite Shakespeare, the assassination of Gaius Julius Caesar was a seismic event at the time and seemingly since! To have been produced and then to be written of is unique in world ancient history, except the Eid Mar type was echoed by a unique coin of the Civil Wars period c 100 later! The copy was sold in the last few years of civil wars coinage to stunned silence!

It's like the Basileus Mithradates Athens NewStyle/Aristion coinage with Pontic star and 2 crescents  prescining/fortelling  ( what is that word?) Athens and generally the whole Greek world

And even better , one such Bas Mith coin being trumped with a deleted Pontic symbol by a Headdress of Isis which I have called a Roman rallying symbol after the disastrous Mithradatic siege of Rhodes hastened by the epiphany of Isis herself! 

 

I imagine if it was made today we'd all baulk at the Eid Mar as being some sort of ghastly commemorative.

[DonnaML]

For anyone who likes to scroll through these, another new Harlan J. Berk buy or bid sale was launched a day or two ago, # 226. (I don't think anyone posted about # 225.) See https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/buy-or-bid/ . There are 679 lots of ancient coins, and 777 lots overall. The sale includes more of Curtis Clay's collection. I was tempted by a number of coins, but ended up limiting myself to one Roman Imperial denarius. It's certainly not in the condition that I usually try to buy, but it's a relatively uncommon type that I've wanted for a while, and it would be difficult to find a better example for less money. 

The most expensive lot is no. 680; see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/ancient-coins/104937?fromBbs=226th Buy Or Bid Sale . For the low low price of $325,000, you can be the owner of not one but two Colosseum sestertii, one issued by Titus and the other by Domitian!

Edited December 19, 2023 by DonnaML

[David Atherton]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

For anyone who likes to scroll through these, another new Harlan J. Berk buy or bid sale was launched a day or two ago, # 226. (I don't think anyone posted about # 225.) See https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/buy-or-bid/ . There are 679 lots of ancient coins, and 777 lots overall. The sale includes more of Curtis Clay's collection. I was tempted by a number of coins, but ended up limiting myself to one Roman Imperial denarius. It's certainly not in the condition that I usually try to buy, but it's a relatively uncommon type that I've wanted for a while, and it would be difficult to find a better example for less money. 

The most expensive lot is no. 680; see https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/inventory/item-detail/ancient-coins/104937?fromBbs=226th Buy Or Bid Sale . For the low low price of $325,000, you can be the owner of not one but two Colosseum sestertii, one issued by Titus and the other by Domitian!

Privately I shared these thoughts concerning sales 224 and 225:

'A few thoughts about HJB's BBS 224 & 225 since both are over and done with: 224 with the silver offerings was magnificent....not since NAC 125 had I seen so many rare Flavian provincial denarii listed together. The Rome mint offerings were spectacular too ... the D6 for Christ's sake! 225 featuring Clay's bronzes was a slow burn for me. Initially, I was not as impressed but after digesting it and discovering the non Clay architectural collection at the tale-end I was gobsmacked. It will rank as the single best sale I've yet encountered. My all time favourite coin was obtained from it along with many other architectural types I've searched high and low for (Vesta!). Not to mention all the wonderful early Vespasianic sestertii. We are unlikely to see the likes of those kind of sales for Flavians anytime soon.'

I can breath a sigh of relief and relax my wallet now that the sales are moving into Curtis' second century material. Good luck to all who bid!

[Jay GT4]

I agree with David's opinion of the last two sales.  I'm happy to have snagged 3 Flavian rarities from the Clay collection with the hope of adding a few more!

Edited December 19, 2023 by Jay GT4