Cleopatra was light-skinned, Egypt tells Netflix in row over drama

[robinjojo]

From the realm of entertainment:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/apr/28/cleopatra-was-light-skinned-egypt-tells-netflix-in-row-over-drama

Cleopatra VII was descended from the Ptolemaic line, so the Egyptians are probably correct. 

However I see no problem casting her role to a non-white actor.  This has been done with productions of Shakespeare's works for decades where casting has gone well beyond tradition both in terms of race and gender.  Artistic license does create much latitude in these matters and audiences have accepted and welcomed these changes and innovations for many years. 

[Steppenfool]

I agree that nobody should care much about the cast used to create a piece of art.

However, this series purports to be a documentary, with someone in the trailer stating " My grandmother used to say to me: I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was Black." and the executive producer Jada Plinkett Smith (Will Smith's scandalised wife) claiming that she wanted to tell the story of Black Queens. I think this is where the (level-headed) concern is coming from, although it will of course also cause outrage from more unsavoury types uninterested in historical accuracy.

I actually think the controversy is all manufactured by design anyway. I see people discussing this all over the internet, it's a marketer's dream. Applying modern racial categories to history is nothing short of a grift in the first instance, but even if Netflix were genuinely wishing to highlight actual Black history, there was the Nubian dynasty of Pharohs among a plethora of other significant figures and empires in world history to choose from.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Steppenfool

[CPK]

Seems kind of dumb to me. Shouldn't a historical documentary stick with the historical facts? As @Steppenfool observed, this nonsense only reinforces a historically inaccurate conception anyway.

[Kali]

And here I thought Elizabeth Taylor was the real, Cleopatra.😐

[David Atherton]

Egyptologist Bob Brier used to say ancient Egypt was a melting pot of races. When asked about Cleopatra he stated she was Greek. Make of that what you will.

 

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

The row over this has been showing up in news feeds for weeks. Clearly, however, Cleopatra was of Greek descent. But at the end of the day who cares. If one examines the mummy portraits from Roman Egypt excavated by Flinders Petrie and others from Antinopolis and Herakliopolis to the Fayyum the representations vary from Greek to Middle Eastern (not much different from the present Arab population) to African, so that the variety in Ancient times was significant. Class was not as dependent on race as in modern times. Likewise, Roman citizenship was not dependent on race.

[kirispupis]

Granted, I never intended, nor do I intend, to watch the series, but I do find this choice frustrating.

Kleopatra VII was clearly Macedonian. The lagid kings even adopted the Egyptian practice of marrying their sisters to make the line pure. Egyptian society was largely stratified between Egyptians and Macedonians/Greeks and there were even revolts over it. Perhaps illustrating that dichotomy (which even a horrible Asterix & Obelix movie illustrated) would have made more interesting drama, but the show's producer seems to have completely disregarded history in exchange for headlines.

Some time ago, I would have written this off, but given today's climate - when the incorrect casting of a historically minority role can result in Internet fury, I find this choice hypocritical. 

[Roman Collector]

I had better stay out of this one because I once got upset that Crispina's hairstyle was incorrectly portrayed in a Netflix show.

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, robinjojo said:

However I see no problem casting her role to a non-white actor.  This has been done with productions of Shakespeare's works for decades where casting has gone well beyond tradition both in terms of race and gender.  Artistic license does create much latitude in these matters and audiences have accepted and welcomed these changes and innovations for many years. 

Shakespeare is an interesting case. Many of his plays were historical, so it might be odd to have known people like Henry V portrayed as a different race. Othello was moorish, and often portrayed by black actors, although he may or may not have come from Africa. On top of all that, the original Shakespeare casts were all men, so if Antony and Cleopatra is put on at the Globe today it will go well beyond tradition simply by having a female Cleopatra.

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, kirispupis said:

Granted, I never intended, nor do I intend, to watch the series, but I do find this choice frustrating.

Kleopatra VII was clearly Macedonian. The lagid kings even adopted the Egyptian practice of marrying their sisters to make the line pure. Egyptian society was largely stratified between Egyptians and Macedonians/Greeks and there were even revolts over it. Perhaps illustrating that dichotomy (which even a horrible Asterix & Obelix movie illustrated) would have made more interesting drama, but the show's producer seems to have completely disregarded history in exchange for headlines.

Some time ago, I would have written this off, but given today's climate - when the incorrect casting of a historically minority role can result in Internet fury, I find this choice hypocritical. 

I think the opening through which people attempt to drive a truck is that nobody knows who Cleopatra's mother was. So people freely theorize, without any evidence one way or another, that she was a native Egyptian -- which is then conflated with being a sub-Saharan African. Even if that were true, the fact that as a result of the antebellum "one drop rule" in the American South anyone who's biracial in the USA is considered to be a Black person regardless of skin color, is completely irrelevant to how people thought of themselves in Ptolemaic Egypt in the 1st Century BCE.  Modern, and especially US, concepts of race would have been completely foreign to them. 

[JayAg47]

Given the Ptolemaics were a clan of incestuous inbreds, I hardly think they ever intermarried with other European royal families let alone with native people of Africa to even produce someone of 'lighter skin'. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by JayAg47

[Numisnewbie]

 

If you're going to pretend to be a documentary, you're obligated to be historically accurate. Cleopatra was black? That's not even a good try, and sounds more like a Monty Python movie.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Numisnewbie

[El Cazador]

6 hours ago, David Atherton said:

Egyptologist Bob Brier used to say ancient Egypt was a melting pot of races. When asked about Cleopatra he stated she was Greek. Make of that what you will.

 

I finished all 48 of his lectures- these are gems

[The_Collector]

I think the problem as a few havepointed out is the claim that it is a documentary. It is trying to stake a claim on another people's culture and heritage while purporting to educate people on other people's history. There is a level of hipocracy and irony that is too much for me to think its okay. I have no problem if you want to cast whomever in a fictional role but when its someone elses culture do not go poaching it while claiming to bring "your" heritage to light. Just my two cents 😕

[seth77]

I am rather "progressive" on issues of race, but with this I think Zahi Hawass is right: https://egyptindependent.com/hawass-criticizes-depicting-cleopatra-as-black-in-netflix-film/

 

I understand the need for controversy to "sell tickets" but falsifying history is a one way street that probably ends in Ancient Aliens and that insane theory by the Nation of Islam that a black scientist "created" white people 8000 years ago.

Edited April 29, 2023 by seth77

[shanxi]

We had a student from Greece who was a 1:1 copy of the statue pictured above, Mediterranean  look,  dark red hair, sharp facial features and a temperament befitting Cleopatra.   Of course she knew that, always making jokes like throwing people to the lions. She would have been perfect for the role. 

[Steppenfool]

12 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Shakespeare is an interesting case. Many of his plays were historical, so it might be odd to have known people like Henry V portrayed as a different race. Othello was moorish, and often portrayed by black actors, although he may or may not have come from Africa. On top of all that, the original Shakespeare casts were all men, so if Antony and Cleopatra is put on at the Globe today it will go well beyond tradition simply by having a female Cleopatra.

I think it matters as well the intent behind the production. Even though Shakespeare's Julius Caesar uses Ancient Roman characters, the point of the show isn't to educate about history. Shakespeare is trying to convey something else utilising this setting as a springboard. The race/appearance/hairstyle/whatever of the actors is irrelevant to what Shakespeare is doing, so Caesar can be Asian, Marc-Antony Finnish and Brutus Black, it greatly doesn't matter. However the case is different when you indicate that your production aims to tell people how things actually were. Then you have to try to be more careful with the appearance of the cast as much as you do accurate costumes, setting etc. 

However I imagine there are situations where you can't achieve accuracy with regards to casting etc due to the options you have available, or even because you wish to make a socio-political point about diversity in the industry if that's what you think is noble. In such an instance it could be argued it is reasonable to cast someone who looked different from the actual historical person, however you wouldn't draw attention to this deviation from fact like it's grounded in historical reality as Netflix appears to have done.

I did recently watch the trailer again and it appears that this historical falsehood is not the only one Netflix are perpetuating. It states "Julius Caesar wants to be King to Cleopatra's Queen.", "Cleopatra was trying to save the country that she loved from destruction." and in big bold text "the last ruling Pharoh of Egypt". Almost every statement in the trailer is dubious.

So in summary, I think the issue is the liberal use of "documentary" and the way they seem to have allowed random people to talk nonsense in interview clips throughout it. Although like I said above, probably done on purpose to wind people up.

[NewStyleKing]

Kleopatra would have not been accepted if she was anything other than an inbred Macedonian type.  Simples!  A bit like poor Meghan Markel by some members of the UK royal family apparently!

 

[Tejas]

Still waiting for a Netflix documentary called "Hitler's rise to power", with Laurence Fishburne in the title role. 🙂

 

On a more serious note, casting a black actress as Cleopatra in a documentary is a particularly poor choice, given that there are contemporary portraits and given that there is practically no ambiguity around here ethnicity. Indeed, there is probably no other contemporary historical figure whose ancestry is so well documented than that of Cleopatra VII. 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Tejas

[Heliodromus]

Seems Hollywood has usually gotten away with putting white actors (incl. a string of Cleopatras) in most roles, regardless of historical accuracy, so I suppose this is no different. Do we really need another Cleopatra movie though? How about an historically accurate "The black emperor" about Septimius Severus (with Brad Pitt as Severus, naturally).

 

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

The Fayyum mummy portraits illustrate what Roman Egypt's inhabitants looked like....from the latter 1st to early 3rd centuries. The time of Cleopatra (e.g. 31 B.C.) was not much different in terms of historical eras. You can draw your own conclusions. 

 

https://www.pinterest.com/EllenJayeBenson/fayum-mummy-portraits/

 

If anything, Cleopatra was of a more Greek and it is doubtful there was any native population in her bloodline.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Ancient Coin Hunter

[I_v_a_n]

Here I'll quote a valuable opinion of famous egyptologist Viktor Solkin:

Finally, Cleopatras' portrait of the work of the famous Spanish reenactor Juan Francisco Oliveras appeared, which can be called very accurate. Oliveras' work is based on three marble busts of Cleopatra from the British and Berlin museums, as well as collections in the Vatican and, importantly, a preserved portrait of the queen on a fresco of the 1st century BC from Herculaneum, from which we know that the queen had red hair. The attire reproduces the clothes on the statues of the deified Ptolemaic queens, the diadem was a favorite headdress of the queen, judging not only by the sculptural portraits, but also by the coins of Cleopatra. Bracelets, necklaces - everything has specific museum prototypes (for example, from the collection of the Victoria and Albert Museum, in the photo) and are correlated with the life of the queen. Emeralds that appeared at that time from the mines in the Arabian Desert and the famous pearls of the queen, described in many ancient sources, are also appropriate.

 

 

[ValiantKnight]

I got this in my email today:

 

Definitely one to run away from:

Edited May 10, 2023 by ValiantKnight

[Al Kowsky]

Forbes reports that the Netflix "Queen Cleopatra" has scored the lowest possible audience score of 1% by Rotten Tomatoes 😬.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/05/14/netflixs-queen-cleopatra-appears-to-have-the-worst-audience-score-in-tv-history/?sh=36402bc05407

[Prieure de Sion]

I would like to make three points from my point of view.

Firstly. It is very likely that Cleopatra looked rather European / Southern European. There are clearly more reasons for this than against. We have the head of the bust which looks rather European with the narrow lips, the remains of the hair colouring (red). In addition, the Ptolemaic ruling house was simply too incestuous to allow a "bastard" daughter on the royal throne. And a very important point - Julius Caesar should never have become involved with anything other than the daughter of a Macedonian bloodline. Nor then would it ever have even been considered that Cleopatra and Caesar's son could be an heir to Roman rule. 

Secondly. Since the series claims the title of documentary, one should also be as historically accurate as possible here. It would therefore be incomprehensible for me to see a Gandhi documentary with an Asian - or Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King with a European white actor. But even in a film - which - as an example - includes Nelson Mandela, I don't want artistic freedom here. With fictional films, fantasy films, etc., none of this matters, of course. 

But if I see historical persons in a film or a documentary - then they should also correspond to the historical models as far as possible. Otherwise you could have played "12 Years a Slave" with an Asian or European - no! Just because you think you have to include diverse actors everywhere - that doesn't prevent or defeat racism. If it is forced - it is rather ammunition for idiotic racists.

Thirdly. Far from the whole discussion - I watched the first 30 minutes - then I couldn't take it anymore. A poorly realised film documentary - for my taste. The experts speak far too often and for far too long, and they also repeat themselves constantly. 

When there is finally a cinematic action with the actors and I think - yes, finally at least 5 minutes of acting - the scene is interrupted again by an expert who talks in between and I have to watch him speak! What's the point of that? One minute of film scene - 3 minutes of expert - 1 minute of another expert - again 1 minute of film scene - again interrupted by three experts... from my point of view, there is no "flow" in the documentary. 

I was looking forward to historical actors, historical places, historical events - but the scenes are so short and too much space is given to the experts. They constantly talk in, they are constantly shown - there is constant switching back and forth between the documentary film and the experts. It made me restless and I couldn't watch any longer.

Too bad.