Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 24, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 24, 2022 Wow, Zurquieh was actually quite fast - about a week and a half - Dubai to the USA. Shipping was 5 dollars and some change. The only aggravating part was that the coins were in paper envelopes (I'm out of flips) and no ID tags. The main order was a denarius, but I ordered a 6 buck widow's mite, just to say I have one. For six bucks, it really isn't bad. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cazador Posted June 24, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 6:47 PM, DonnaML said: Wow. So that's at least three people in the USA, including me, who won coins in that auction but never received them. I can't help thinking that there's something strange going on. Although regarding the trucking strike, I didn't see any mention of an effect on coins leaving Spain, only those arriving there. So who knows? I think it's ironic that in the email he sent me this morning, Mr. Cayon, in addition to apologizing, said that this issue "is not common at all." In my opinion, 3+ coins gone missing from one auction is all too "common"! By the way, I haven't actually received the refund yet; I was just told that it's on its way. If the transfer doesn't arrive at my bank by tomorrow, I may start to worry again! I got my denarius from Cayon (USA) about 2 months ago, it was quite fast 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted June 24, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 24, 2022 Customs, regardless of country, are very bureaucratic, opaque (for an outsider) entities. If a shipment is tied up in Customs for whatever reason, be it forms not completed correctly, import restrictions, determination of value (import duty), or any other reason, means that the shipment in question can be there for a very long time. Once something like that occurs, the labyrinth is open and there is no way to find out a shipment's status. It is almost a hermetically sealed process. Still, that said, with time the coins might still arrive. There's hope, but get the refunds! If, by some happy chance they arrive, send the amount due to the seller. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 24, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 24, 2022 The refund from Cayon arrived in my bank account this morning. I'd still much rather have the coin, but given the circumstances I'm very relieved. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted June 24, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 24, 2022 Here's another business-as-usual USPS delivery adventure ... So, with me in NJ, this coin got flown from UK into Miami (vs NY as usual), then takes a 4-day donkey-cart trip up to NJ. Having arrived at Teterboro, NJ distribution center in early hours of today, it then somehow makes to my local post office (in a different town), out for delivery, and thru my letter box all in the space of a few hours. Oh well, overall delivery time from UK not bad at all, even given the unnecessary 4-day ride up from Florida. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted June 25, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 25, 2022 It's kind of strange that postal packages from Dubai would generally be swifter than from Europe, which is closer (Numiscorner/France is the only one which was faster). Although I'll be careful to avoid the orange stuff (although most of the orangies are from periods which I don't collect), I'm no longer so reticent to order from Zurquieh. There were some coins here and there which didn't seem quite right, which I will avoid, but as long as I'm prudent, I don't think I'll have a big problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeady Posted June 25, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 I'm still waiting on a coin won from CNG in January. Just as I'd given it up as lost, it reappeared on the USPS radar and was returned to CNG. They sent it again, this time to my Ireland address. It is in Ireland now and was held for ransom by the Customs people, who extracted a further €600.48 from me and the current status (unchanged since 20th June) is "Custom charges have been paid. Your item will be processed and delivered to you as soon as possible. Please hold tight while we work through high volumes." So, I'm holding tight 😄 The last time I got this status message, it persisted for a week or more - I enquired about when I would receive the coin and a few days later it arrived. A further couple of weeks and I got a response to the query asking if i had received the package, so was happy to say that it had been delivered! Attached is the near 3-month expedition the coin was on until earlier this month. I paid for this coin on 1st Feb. (auction was in late January and received the invoice on 28th Jan.). I paid by bank transfer via Revolut and it apparently lost the information I'd attached with my transfer with my name and details (I had also emailed at the same time, with my mailing address - home, rather than work - and to say I'd paid by bank transfer and they replied to the email within 11 minutes!). So, no progress until early March, when they looked for payment again and then recognised my payment when I again emailed to say I'd paid. I was due to be in San Diego for a few weeks from mid-March, so asked it be sent to the office there. So, they sent it there and it wasn't delivered - I don't know why - we did move floors in the building and a colleague there called them to give them the suite no. (in the end my trip was delayed and I didn't get there until May). It was supposedly forwarded a couple of times (to where, they wouldn't tell me or the colleague at the ofice) and never delivered, disappeared from the radar for a while and then popped up in NJ as I'd given up on it. Unfortunately, Customs here is imposing a blanket 23% charge on things from outside the EU - the correct rate for antiquities (defined as objects over 100 years old) is 13.5%, but I've had no success getting them to change their minds so far. I am not going to buy anything from outside the EU any more, unless I can get them at a considerable discount, to account for a 23% charge on import. Naville is an exception - they import to the EU via Belgium and so incur only a 6% charge. The problem is that there are significant delays - still waiting on coins from their 8th May auction - they were delayed for various reasons, the last of which was that the Belgians had imposed an incorrect VAT rate, but that was resolved - those coins are now somewhere in the postal system - left Belgian tracking on Wednesday and still haven't appeared on the Irish radar 😄 Also waiting on some from Spain, come to think of it... export licence needed. Bah! Thanks for the vent outlet! Aidan. June 9, 2022, 6:52 amDelivered, PO BoxLANCASTER, PA 17608 Your item has been delivered and is available at a PO Box at 6:52 am on June 9, 2022 in LANCASTER, PA 17608. June 9, 2022, 6:52 amArrived at Post OfficeLANCASTER, PA 17603 June 8, 2022, 8:58 pmDeparted USPS Regional Origin FacilityLANCASTER PA DISTRIBUTION CENTER June 8, 2022, 7:08 pmArrived at USPS Regional FacilityLANCASTER PA DISTRIBUTION CENTER June 8, 2022, 6:51 pmIn Transit to Next Facility June 8, 2022, 3:26 pmDeparted USPS Regional FacilityHARRISBURG PA DISTRIBUTION CENTER June 8, 2022, 3:23 pmArrived at USPS Regional Origin FacilityHARRISBURG PA DISTRIBUTION CENTER May 31, 2022, 1:32 amArrived at USPS Regional Origin FacilityJERSEY CITY NJ NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER April 13, 2022, 9:40 amForwardedSAN DIEGO, CA April 13, 2022, 6:33 amOut for DeliverySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 April 13, 2022, 6:22 amArrived at Post OfficeSAN DIEGO, CA 92126 April 12, 2022, 1:21 pmArrived at USPS FacilitySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 April 12, 2022, 12:54 pmDeparted USPS Regional FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER April 12, 2022, 8:30 amArrived at USPS Regional FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER April 12, 2022, 5:34 amDeparted USPS Regional FacilityANAHEIM CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER April 11, 2022, 2:15 amArrived at USPS Regional FacilityANAHEIM CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER April 7, 2022In Transit to Next Facility April 3, 2022, 5:46 pmDeparted USPS FacilityPASADENA, CA 91109 April 3, 2022, 10:49 amArrived at USPS FacilityPASADENA, CA 91109 March 31, 2022, 11:01 amForwardedSAN DIEGO, CA March 30, 2022, 6:32 pmRescheduled to Next Delivery DaySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 29, 2022, 2:24 pmDelivery Attempted - No Access to Delivery LocationSAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 29, 2022, 6:18 amOut for DeliverySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 29, 2022, 6:07 amArrived at Post OfficeSAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 29, 2022, 5:10 amArrived at USPS FacilitySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 29, 2022, 1:41 amDeparted USPS Regional Destination FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 28, 2022, 1:28 amArrived at USPS Regional Destination FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 26, 2022, 8:58 pmArrived at USPS Regional FacilityANAHEIM CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 18, 2022, 4:58 pmForwardedSAN DIEGO, CA March 17, 2022, 5:08 pmDelivery Attempted - No Access to Delivery LocationSAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 17, 2022, 6:10 amOut for DeliverySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 17, 2022, 5:50 amArrived at Post OfficeSAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 17, 2022, 4:39 amArrived at USPS FacilitySAN DIEGO, CA 92126 March 17, 2022, 4:25 amDeparted USPS Regional FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 17, 2022, 1:36 amArrived at USPS Regional Destination FacilitySAN DIEGO CA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 15, 2022, 6:44 pmArrived at USPS Regional Origin FacilityLANCASTER PA DISTRIBUTION CENTER March 15, 2022, 5:29 pmAccepted at USPS Origin FacilityLANCASTER, PA 17608 March 15, 2022, 4:02 pmShipment Received, Package Acceptance PendingMOUNTVILLE, PA 17554 March 15, 2022, 3:34 pmShipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting ItemLANCASTER, PA 17608 March 15, 2022Pre-Shipment Info Sent to USPS, USPS Awaiting Item 2 1 1 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 25, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2022 Started writing a comment here, and it morphed into a new post because I thought it was a pretty good story... with a happy ending. See here: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 26, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 26, 2022 Does anyone know if Naville Numismatics is actually located in London, as stated on its website? I bought and paid for a coin at the Naville auction that took place on June 19 (one week ago), and received an email from one of its proprietors a couple of days ago stating the following: "we will send your lot on Monday, sorry but this week we are experiencing 3 day of strike on national transports and it's extremely difficult to reach the office. I will forward anyway the tracking once it's sent." Is there such a strike ongoing in the UK? The only one I had heard of was in Spain. But if Naville's inventory is actually located in Spain, wouldn't they need an export permit? Signed, Confused in New York City Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 26, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 26, 2022 35 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Does anyone know if Naville Numismatics is actually located in London, as stated on its website? I bought and paid for a coin at the Naville auction that took place on June 19 (one week ago), and received an email from one of its proprietors a couple of days ago stating the following: "we will send your lot on Monday, sorry but this week we are experiencing 3 day of strike on national transports and it's extremely difficult to reach the office. I will forward anyway the tracking once it's sent." Is there such a strike ongoing in the UK? The only one I had heard of was in Spain. But if Naville's inventory is actually located in Spain, wouldn't they need an export permit? Signed, Confused in New York City Naville has stored many coins on the European mainland because of the customs duties from the UK to the EU. Many collector colleagues and I have often ordered from Naville. Don't worry - they are / have always been absolutely reputable. Delivery times of up to 6 weeks are quite normal. I was a bit nervous the first time. But today I know that they need a little longer. But it's really quite normal for them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeady Posted June 26, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 26, 2022 3 hours ago, DonnaML said: Does anyone know if Naville Numismatics is actually located in London, as stated on its website? I bought and paid for a coin at the Naville auction that took place on June 19 (one week ago), and received an email from one of its proprietors a couple of days ago stating the following: "we will send your lot on Monday, sorry but this week we are experiencing 3 day of strike on national transports and it's extremely difficult to reach the office. I will forward anyway the tracking once it's sent." Is there such a strike ongoing in the UK? The only one I had heard of was in Spain. But if Naville's inventory is actually located in Spain, wouldn't they need an export permit? Signed, Confused in New York City Naville are in London. There have been rail strikes in the UK in recent days. For shipping to the EU, they ship through NAC's Belgium office. ATB, Aidan. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 27, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 27, 2022 German customs piss me off so much. Sorry for these words. In Germany, the customs tariff numbers were changed at the turn of the year 2021/22. When numismatic goods are received outside the EU, there are now new numbers and divisions. The upper group is 97053100 and is generally taxed at 19%. You have to make sure that you get it in the group 97053100001 (coins of base metals) or in the group 97053100002 (coins and medals of precious metals). Because then the import turnover tax is 7% (and not 19%). If this is not convincingly achieved - it is put into group 97053100009 (Collections and collectors' items of coinage value, more than 100 years old) - and this is taxed at 19%. But since the beginning of the year, German customs no longer understands all this. And therefore most consignments are simply taxed at 19%. Of course, you can raise an objection - and I will do so today. But you have to wait 6 to 9 months for the decision - and only with luck will the appeal be granted. Today I received a DHL shipment from Roma in London to Germany. The value of the goods is about 700 euros. Customs costs 140 euros. So what was charged? Of course, the 19% again... and not the 7%. I just looked at Roma's shipping documents, how they declared it. Roma did everything right. They took the group 97053100002 - precious metal gold and silver - for 7%. But hey... German customs sees it completely differently again. They'd rather slap 19% on it. Either the guy complains or he doesn't. But we'll collect double first! But nothing surprises me. Last year, two AE bronzes of Nero and Claudius from Norway were recognised at German customs as two vinyl long-playing records (in an envelope like a postcard!)! What do you expect from a customs officer who thinks that two large vinyl records are in an envelope the size of a hand? That's it for me for auction houses outside the EU. I will only bid at Roma and Co. for items that are personally very valuable to me, rare items and very special items. The 20% auction surcharge plus 20% customs duty is too expensive for me in the end. Too bad. It's not Roma's fault that German customs can't do it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 28, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 28, 2022 This is not my week 😞 Next trouble. I order this fantastic Macrinus Tetradrachm at Coins from this dealer: https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/pavlos_s_pavlou_numismatist/131/product/phoeniciaaradusmacrinus_ad_217218artetradrachm_single_example_known_to_prieur/1500892/Default.aspx There is no information, that he don't shipping to Germany. Nothing. Not one word about that. So I see the coin, read the informations about the coin, select shipping to Germany and start the billing process. Before I press the buy & bill button - no informations about that. So I pay the coin. One hour later - I get my money back. But with a difference. Not all my money? And I get an Email from VCoins - that the transaction was cancelled. Then the dealer write me an email, that he don't send to Germany. When I am at his website - I can see that. Hey - I don't visit your website! I only select at the shop the coin and pay it. Write this in the coin descriptions and/or don't allow select shipping to Germany. it is not my failure. But it is ok - no sending to Germany. If he don't want my money. Ok. But I want all my money back I have send. So I write him that. Back: no chance. the difference is about the fees - he can't give me all my money back! What? Hey - this is not my failure! There is no information he don't send to Germany - if he write this on the description - yes its on me. But in this case - I do nothing false. So I want my complete money back. He don't want to do that - so i write now the VCoins Support and hope that will help me. What a uncooperative unfriendly dealer. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted June 28, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 28, 2022 I had a similar situation on ebay. Actually, it was my first and last ebay "purchase". I bought a modern coin. Paid it with my card. Waited a few days to have a reply from the seller. In the end I wrote him. "I searched for the coin but I can't find it. Either lost it or sold it in a numismatic show" Excellent! I emailed him asking what about a refund. Another few days have passed and in the end he replied that he sent me a refund. No apologies, nothing. And of course not the full sum, because of conversion. I understand that conversion was not his fault, but the attitude made me forget about ebay for good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 28, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, ambr0zie said: I had a similar situation on ebay. Actually, it was my first and last ebay "purchase". There can always be problems with a deal. But you can tell how serious he is by the way he reacts. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 28, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said: There is no information, that he don't shipping to Germany. Yes this is the dealer's fault. VCoins definitely has the option for them to exclude people purchasing from specific countries, just as you can on eBay. So you shouldn't be able to check out. I've had a similar problem with lost coins. Whenever I get a refund, the exchange rate is always against me, because the banks take their cut. Edited June 28, 2022 by John Conduitt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 28, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 28, 2022 On 6/26/2022 at 4:36 PM, DonnaML said: Is there such a strike ongoing in the UK? Yes they are right. It's interesting they said this, as a lot of auction houses take a week to dispatch lots anyway 🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLTcoins Posted June 28, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said: Then the dealer write me an email, that he don't send to Germany. When I am at his website - I can see that. Hey - I don't visit your website! I only select at the shop the coin and pay it. Write this in the coin descriptions and/or don't allow select shipping to Germany. it is not my failure. Unfortunately, the problem is twofold. The German Packaging Act / VerpakG requires (as many interpret) any and all merchants shipping to Germany to register with the German government and pay a fee for the recycling of packaging. The paperwork can be onerous, apparently, and fines for non-compliance can be steep. In addition, Germany has some of the world's strictest laws regarding the import of coins and other antiquities, requiring either an export certificate from the country of origin or proof that the object was legally exported from its country of origin prior to Germany's 2007 ratification of the 1970 UNESCO Convention. No individual country-by-country memoranda. All antiquities, straight across the board. My understanding is that the import law is currently enforced only above a certain monetary value but technically it applies to all antique coins and enforcement is possible at any time. The 2017 raid on the Numismata show in Berlin (link below) demonstrates the seriousness of the German art police. Not surprisingly, some are now reluctant to do business in Germany. https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/german-art-police-target-munich-show-in-early-march.html Edited June 28, 2022 by DLTcoins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 28, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 28, 2022 I received an email yesterday with the Royal Mail tracking information for my package from Naville, so it seems that they really did send it from the UK. Hopefully it will take less than the six weeks mentioned above for the package to reach me here in the USA! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 28, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 52 minutes ago, DonnaML said: I received an email yesterday with the Royal Mail tracking information for my package from Naville, so it seems that they really did send it from the UK. Hopefully it will take less than the six weeks mentioned above for the package to reach me here in the USA! Those who have the option, even if they are not the cheapest, use DHL Express Worldwide. If I pay for an auction at Roma London by credit card today, the package will be with me within 48 hours. Yesterday I had a parcel collected from my home with DHL Express. It's going to Canada to @Severus Alexander. I see it's over the clouds to overseas right now. It left at 4pm London Heathrow. If it goes well he will have the coins after 3-4 days in total. 🙂 Edited June 28, 2022 by Prieure de Sion 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 28, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said: Those who have the option, even if they are not the cheapest, use DHL Express Worldwide. If I pay for an auction at Roma London by credit card today, the package will be with me within 48 hours. Yesterday I had a parcel collected from my home with DHL Express. It's going to Canada to @Severus Alexander. I see it's over the clouds to overseas right now. It left at 4pm London Heathrow. If it goes well he will have the coins after 3-4 days in total. 🙂 DHL Express is Roma's default shipping method, and I have always used it (although I shouldn't have when the total value of of the shipment was high enough to trigger all sorts of extra "handling" charges from DHL). In this case, I bought only a single lot from Naville, for less than 100 GBP, and I simply didn't feel like paying a substantial percentage of the cost for DHL Express shipping. It will get here. I've never had a package sent from the UK, trackable by Royal Mail and then the USPS, disappear. It's not at all like the situation with packages from Spain, which are not trackable once they arrive in the USA. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted July 2, 2022 · Patron Author Share Posted July 2, 2022 It's JULY and I'm still waiting on one from May 5. 🤬 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
septim Posted July 2, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 2, 2022 On 6/28/2022 at 1:04 PM, Prieure de Sion said: This is not my week 😞 Next trouble. I order this fantastic Macrinus Tetradrachm at Coins from this dealer: https://www.vcoins.com/de/stores/pavlos_s_pavlou_numismatist/131/product/phoeniciaaradusmacrinus_ad_217218artetradrachm_single_example_known_to_prieur/1500892/Default.aspx There is no information, that he don't shipping to Germany. Nothing. Not one word about that. So I see the coin, read the informations about the coin, select shipping to Germany and start the billing process. Before I press the buy & bill button - no informations about that. So I pay the coin. One hour later - I get my money back. But with a difference. Not all my money? And I get an Email from VCoins - that the transaction was cancelled. Then the dealer write me an email, that he don't send to Germany. When I am at his website - I can see that. Hey - I don't visit your website! I only select at the shop the coin and pay it. Write this in the coin descriptions and/or don't allow select shipping to Germany. it is not my failure. But it is ok - no sending to Germany. If he don't want my money. Ok. But I want all my money back I have send. So I write him that. Back: no chance. the difference is about the fees - he can't give me all my money back! What? Hey - this is not my failure! There is no information he don't send to Germany - if he write this on the description - yes its on me. But in this case - I do nothing false. So I want my complete money back. He don't want to do that - so i write now the VCoins Support and hope that will help me. What a uncooperative unfriendly dealer. Must be rather new, that this dealer refuses shipping to Germany. Bought from him about a year ago and did not have that kind of trouble. Good to know and keep in mind. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerosmyfavorite68 Posted July 2, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 2, 2022 I've thought of ordering from Mr. Pavlou in the past. Is he ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted July 2, 2022 · Member Share Posted July 2, 2022 2 hours ago, septim said: Must be rather new, that this dealer refuses shipping to Germany. Bought from him about a year ago and did not have that kind of trouble. Good to know and keep in mind. Thanks for sharing. 8 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said: I've thought of ordering from Mr. Pavlou in the past. Is he ok? I can ONLY speak of a well-known collector and myself and what we have both experienced. Fact is. He has not marked that he no longer delivers to Germany. But that would not be "the worst". What I find bad is his reaction - or that he no longer makes a reaction. After all, I ordered and paid. Then the cancellation came from his side and he sent the money back. But there is about 18 GBP or the equivalent of 20 euros missing. The fact that he doesn't send to Germany - not a problem. But I'm very annoyed that he doesn't contact me any more. I asked him to solve the problem by email and that he should please give me back my 20 euros that were still missing. But since then he has not answered me. I wrote to him three days in a row - but now he doesn't answer anymore. And that's what I think is really bad. It's not that he doesn't want to send to Germany. Not even the 20 euros I'm missing. But do you want to order from someone who doesn't get back to you when there are problems? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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