RIP Roma?

[robinjojo]

25 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

One of those "extended descriptions" actually came from me. 

I regularly browse catalogs and dealer sites for coins I already own, hoping to find information or clues to follow in an attempt to further my knowledge. Browsing a Roma listing about 10 years ago I found a similar coin to one in my collection, one I had done a lot of research on. Reading the description I thought "this sounds familiar." It turns out he lifted it entirely from my gallery entry at Forvm. I brought this up to him and he was quite apologetic, claiming he incorrectly assumed it was "standard boilerplate". He then edited the description and offered me a $100 gift card as compensation. I took it as a simple and unfortunate mistake, but the scruples I was assuming then don't seem as obvious to me anymore.

Taras, Calabria

281-276 BC (Period VI - From Kleonymos to Pyrrhus) AR Didrachm (20mm, 7.68g) Nikon magistrate. O: Naked ephebe vaulting from horse galloping left, holding javelin and small shield in left hand; EY above, [NI]KΩN (magistrate) below. R: Phalanthos astride dolphin left, holding ear of grain; API to left, TAPAΣ to right, spearhead below. D'Andrea XLI, 996; Vlasto 703; Evans VI, E2; Cote 342; SNG ANS 1077-78; HGC I, 817; HN Italy 969 ex John Jencek The Tarentine horsemen were renowned throughout the ancient world, serving as mercenary cavalry for many Mediterranean kings including Antigonos I, Demetrios I and Alexander of Epirus. They were so efficient that the term ‘Tarentine Horse’ came to mean any such skirmishing cavalry unit, regardless of their origin. These were not typical cavalry however, but rather "hippakontistai" (mounted javelinmen), or more specifically "elaphroi", light cavalry which throw javelins and then dismount for close combat. The scene depicted here is from an equestrian event of the Hyakinthia (the ceremonial games of Hyakinthian Apollo) rather than actual combat, but celebrates those special skills necessary in war. The armed rider would dismount at full gallop, run along side his horse, and then remount in stride. The didrachm was reduced from c. 7.5g to c. 6.5g after 276 to help pay for Pyrrhus' campaigns against the Romans. However the spearhead on the reverse is in this context definitely an Epirote symbol, making this one of the last coins struck on the old standard.

That's a beautiful coin and excellent write-up!  

Are you going to save any others?

[Phil Anthos]

Not actively, but maybe as they apply to my collecting interests (mainly MagnaGraecia).

I found the Roma entry from 2012...

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=277&lot=27

[Deinomenid]

On 5/22/2024 at 12:44 PM, Phil Anthos said:

much sympathy or nostalgia

No sympathy or nostalgia here. I hugely cut down  my purchases as it became clear the end was nigh and just received my  own  final coin from them. Ironically it appears to be a fake of a Becker, not a Becker. Maybe their final punishment of me for my various Cassandra-like warnings here 😀

Cheers Roma!

 

[wuntbedruv]

Anyone who wants copies of the short historical articles (there are 500+), I screenshotted every single one last night and will edit/file them into different categories in due course before uploading here. 

[Harry G]

Hi all!

I managed to save all Roma's historical articles on The Wayback Machine, and I've also made a quick website with all the links to all the articles they wrote.

https://roma-archive-unofficial.weebly.com/

Hopefully it'll be useful if/when their website shuts down!

[CaveBear2]

The Mare Nostrum hoard will never be published 😭

I always wanted to know more about it because of those weird Anastasius solidus with the mint mark "T".

[Theoderic]

2 hours ago, CaveBear2 said:

The Mare Nostrum hoard will never be published 😭

I always wanted to know more about it because of those weird Anastasius solidus with the mint mark "T".

Indeed.  After their legal troubles broke, all mention of the Mare Nostrum provenance disappeared from subsequent auctions that included many similar looking western solidi.  After winning one attributed to Odovacar last November I inquired with them if it was from that hoard.  They said it was not and confirmed that there were no longer plans to publish the hoard.

AV Solidus (20 mm, 4.28 grams, 6h), Struck in the name of Zeno, A.D. 476-491, Rome mint

Obverse: D N ZENO P-ERP F AVG, pearl-diademed, helmeted, and cuirassed bust facing slightly right, holding spear over right shoulder, shield on left arm decorated with horseman riding down an enemy soldier

Reverse: VICTORI-A AVGGG R, Victory standing left, holding long jeweled cross in right hand; star in right field; COMOB in exergue

References: RIC X 3653; Depeyrot 88/2; DOCLR 686

Auction: Roma XXIX (November 9, 2023), lot 605

[robinjojo]

10 hours ago, wuntbedruv said:

Anyone who wants copies of the short historical articles (there are 500+), I screenshotted every single one last night and will edit/file them into different categories in due course before uploading here. 

Thank you so much!  This archive will be very useful for future reference.

[David Atherton]

2 hours ago, Theoderic said:

After their legal troubles broke, all mention of the Mare Nostrum provenance disappeared from subsequent auctions that included many similar looking western solidi.  After winning one attributed to Odovacar last November I inquired with them if it was from that hoard.  They said it was not and confirmed that there were no longer plans to publish the hoard.

I wonder why? Lol

Roma never struck me has having robust or accurate numismatic scholarship anyway. Even before their 'troubles', I took their attributions with a pinch of salt.

Separating the wheat from the chaff in their 'numismatic articles' will be a daunting task.

Edited May 24 by David Atherton

[John Conduitt]

Even Roma said the circumstances and location of the Mare Nostrum find were lost. They claimed the coins were saved from being melted in the 1950s and the reason they are associated with the sea is that they had traces of sea-dwelling organisms on them.

Perhaps they didn't publish because that was all nonsense. But they didn't have anything to publish anyway.

[Hrefn]

The following coin was sold in NBJ e-auction 11, 4/2024,  listed as

ROMAN EMPIRE: AV Gold solidus 474-491 A.D. Zeno, Constantinople 2nd officina. Obverse: D N ZENO PERP AVG; pearl-diademed, helmeted and cuirassed bust facing slightly to right, holding spear and shield decorated with horseman motif. Reverse: VICTORIA AVGGG I, Victory standing facing, head to left, holding long jewelled cross; star in right field, CONOB in exergue. (4.14gm, 21mm) Good Very Fine.

It is clearly not a product of the Constantinople mint, nor is it a product of the second officina, which would be marked AUGGG B.  It is underweight for an imperial solidus, or for an Ostrogothic solidus.  It appeared very similar to coins from a certain aquatic hoard being disbursed by a certain company now having legal problems.  Here is the coin:

The peculiarities of the coin did not strike me as the inaccuracies of a modern forger, so I bid and won it.  

@Rand and @Tejas were very kind to take a look at the coin’s images.  @Rand even found a possible die match in a coin recently sold by Athena, and a very similar coin from one of Roma’s Mare Nostrum sales, back when they were still so identifying these coins.  Given Athena’s tie to Richard Beale and Roma, I suspect this unusual solidus may have been part of the original MN parcel, but of course it is impossible to know for sure.  

My guess is that Roma’s stock was thoroughly and rapidly disbursed via several channels as the firm’s demise approached, which will only complicate a scholarly description of the MN hoard should one ever be attempted.  

I am struck by the similarity of Victory on this solidus with a certain cinematic heroine.

 

[DonnaML]

5 hours ago, Hrefn said:

My guess is that Roma’s stock was thoroughly and rapidly disbursed via several channels as the firm’s demise approached, which will only complicate a scholarly description of the MN hoard should one ever be attempted.  

Given Beale's potential monetary liabilities in the form of penalties imposed when he's sentenced (in addition to possible incarceration), it would seem that to the extent that Roma had any remaining stock of coins that it owned -- as opposed to coins consigned by third parties -- there would certainly be legal issues of fraudulent conveyance and the like if it was disbursed by Beale at anything less than fair market value in arms' length transactions. Even though Beale personally, rather than Roma as an entity, is the defendant.

[robinjojo]

It seems that the Roma Numismatics website has been removed.  Google search still lists it, but I cannot connect any longer as of today.

[DonnaML]

2 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

It seems that the Roma Numismatics website has been removed.  Google search still lists it, but I cannot connect any longer as of today.

I assume that one could still access at least some of it via the Wayback Machine.

[robinjojo]

20 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I assume that one could still access at least some of it via the Wayback Machine.

Thanks.  How does that work?😉

Something like this?

Edited May 28 by robinjojo

[expat]

@robinjojo I have never used the wayback but it says this on Google. Maybe someone can fine tune the instructions if they are not totally correct.

How do you use the Wayback Machine?
To search for websites on the Wayback Machine, enter the specific URL of the website into the search bar and select Search archived websites in the drop-down. Alternatively, click on the Web icon on the upper left side of the black bar. Enter the correct URL into the Wayback Machine search bar. Select the desired year.

[robinjojo]

5 minutes ago, expat said:

@robinjojo I have never used the wayback but it says this on Google. Maybe someone can fine tune the instructions if they are not totally correct.

How do you use the Wayback Machine?
To search for websites on the Wayback Machine, enter the specific URL of the website into the search bar and select Search archived websites in the drop-down. Alternatively, click on the Web icon on the upper left side of the black bar. Enter the correct URL into the Wayback Machine search bar. Select the desired year.

Thanks!  I might give it a try if I need to access information from Roma's former site.

[DonnaML]

@robinjojo, I've often used the wayback machine to find old numismatic articles from defunct websites. One example is the articles on the old Reid Goldsborough website (such as his article on forgeries of Apollonia Pontika drachms at  https://web.archive.org/web/20141115000124/http://medusacoins.reidgold.com/apollonia.html ). 

Here's a screenshot showing a portion of what you see after doing a search for romanumismatics.com. You then select the year, and click on one of the highlighted dates, and go from there.  Sometimes, though, all you get is the home page from that date, and none of the links from that home page works anymore. Sometimes some of them do work. I have no idea why!

Edited May 28 by DonnaML

[robinjojo]

I'd like to add, as probably my last post for this tread, that as reprehensible as Beale's conduct was, resulting in the end of the firm this year, I have nothing but praise for Roma's staff.  I found their communications prompt, professional and courteous.  I was especially impressed with the prompt refund that I received a couple of years ago from them for some lots that were lost in transit through the Royal Mali/USPS systems.  So, I'm missing them, but as with life's twists and turns, must move on.

[Hrefn]

Ave atque valete.

[Vel Saties]

It's a very sad story.

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum

[lordmarcovan]

I do not recall ever doing business with them.

[Aleph]

Good riddance!  One less dishonest dealer can only be good for the hobby.

[KiaB]

I bought many coins from them with certificates. Now I just wonder what will happends with my certificates!!  I guess they will not be valid anymore 😕 

[Hrefn]

26 minutes ago, KiaB said:

I bought many coins from them with certificates. Now I just wonder what will happends with my certificates!!  I guess they will not be valid anymore 😕 

KiaB,  Welcome to the forum!

I do not think you need worry very much.  Roma lied about the provenance of some of their coins, but they were never notorious for selling fakes.   Your coins are almost certainly all fine.  

So far as certificates go, the only ones I consider authoritative are the ones written by David Sear in the blood of Philip Grierson upon the tanned skin of Harold Mattingly, whilst simultaneously attesting to their veracity by swearing on a relic of Saint Eligius.  These are difficult to come by.  All other written attestations are just additional data points to which a knowledgeable collector gives due consideration.  The weight the certificate carries is proportional to the reputation of the scholar or organization which issues it.  

Since Roma was not known for dealing in fake material, your certificates are as valid as they ever were, and will carry some weight with (most) subsequent buyers, should you ever decide to sell.  

The chief loss sustained by Roma customers is the loss of recourse should one of our coins from them prove false.  Having collected for many years, quite a few of my coins were purchased from firms now defunct.  I do not lose any sleep on account of this.