Modern VS Ancient Collectors

[Kali]

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I like it!

[JAZ Numismatics]

What I absoluely can't relate to when it comes to collectors of moderns is the obsession with minute differences in grade. Each to his own, but I just find that kind of discussion beyond boring.

[CPK]

8 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

What I absoluely can't relate to when it comes to collectors of moderns is the obsession with minute differences in grade. Each to his own, but I just find that kind of discussion beyond boring.

And what's especially crazy about that is a one or two point difference on the scale can mean hundreds or thousands of dollars difference in price.

[ominus1]

...well, imma general coin collector and also a rabbit hole enthusiast ...

[Phil Anthos]

Grading madness is what drove me to ancients in the first place.

"Sure, I could buy your Eid Mar, but that minute scratch in the hairline concerns me. I think I'll hold out for a nicer one."

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Yeah, really.  When I was watching some Vaultbox 5 openings, I was rooting for the more sedate collectors to get something good, but it was rarely something good.  Oh boy, a proof 2017 eagle!  I like Morgan dollars ok, but not when one pays $1200 for 3 coins. 

[robinjojo]

Oh well, the grading conundrum, which has been an aspect of numismatics for many decades, amplified over the past few decades by the MS system  on the world/US side and, even more recently by the NGC grade, strike/surface rating system. are all part of a scheme to think up more grade categories or states as a means to make more money.  Virtue, expanding knowledge or promoting the true meaning of numismatics, that of collecting coins as a way of learning history and human societies, are not the objectives of slabbing coins or the pushing the near obsession of grading by numbers that is so rampant for many collectors of modern and ancient coins.  But, to each his or her own, as noted.

I started collecting Morgan dollars back in the late 70s to early 80s, got turned off by the grading and hype, not to say the monotony of the designs and endless VAM varieties.  I switched to world coins in the early 80s.  Back then the grading was very straightforward: fair, good, very good, fine, very fine, extremely fine, almost uncirculated and uncirculated.  The European grading system was more conservative, so an EF there would most likely grade as an AU in the US.

This system suited me admirably.  How nice it was to purchase a German wildman thaler in VF, with a nice strike and toning for what seemed to me a reasonable price.  Many of the modern coins that I collected were cobs, and they really defy any numeric systems of grading or really an kind of grading with any accuracy, being wonderfully crude as they are!

But, alas!  Slabbing spread from US to world coins and now we have what seem to me hair-splitting grades for really modern coins.  I've mostly moved on to ancients, avoiding slabbed coins unless they merit my attention beyond being encased in plastic.  However, slabbing has been a major growth industry within ancient coin collecting, especially for the massive amounts of classical owls that have flooded the market for the past several years, but other coins as well. But I have never had an obsession to own "the finest known" or "top of population" or MS 71.55689.  I guess that makes me very old school, but a coin, with all of its history, virtues and flaws, in hand is definitely my preference.   

Edited March 31 by robinjojo

[Hrefn]

Alas, where is all the plastic?  One of the coins even has a hole in it.  Obviously, my collection is just a bunch of useless junk.  

[CPK]

7 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Alas, where is all the plastic?  One of the coins even has a hole in it.  Obviously, my collection is just a bunch of useless junk.  

Better let me dispose of it for you...😜

[Qcumbor]

7 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Alas, where is all the plastic?  One of the coins even has a hole in it.  Obviously, my collection is just a bunch of useless junk.  

Yes, absolute junk. I'm so sorry for you mate. You would get much, much more pleasure from plastic !!

Q

[CPK]

1 minute ago, Qcumbor said:

Yes, absolute junk. I'm so sorry for you mate. You would get much, much more pleasure from plastic !!

Q

Though, in his defense, I do see a couple extremely rare off-center 'mint errors' in there.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I was watching a bunch of VaultBox 5 unboxings.  Some people are apparently collecting different slab decorative motifs for silver eagles.

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

I once found a penny with an S mintmark rather than a D. How cool is that?

 

I even found a wheat back and a worn buffalo head nickel in a merchant's change. Enough to give one goosebumps!

[Ursus]

On 4/1/2024 at 12:57 AM, robinjojo said:

How nice it was to purchase a German wildman thaler in VF, with a nice strike and toning for what seemed to me a reasonable price.  Many of the modern coins that I collected were cobs, and they really defy any numeric systems of grading or really an kind of grading with any accuracy, being wonderfully crude as they are!

+1

I have a couple of pugnacious opinions when it comes to modern numismatics. Most US and world collectors disagree. It's probably best for everybody that I never got into collecting anything from after 1700:

1.) Slabbing and fussy grading are a marketing strategy to sell boring coins to rookie collectors at inflated prices.

2.) Serious collectors know their coins better than the label on the slab.

3.) The more worthwhile a numismatic field is, the less nitpicky people are about grading. (That doesn't only refer to ancients. I know people who, for example, specialize in collecting American tokens, German notgeld, or coins from the Spanish Civil War. They care about historical interest, eye appeal, and completing whatever set they have in mind, not about a highly sophisticated grading scale.)

4.) 20th/21st century US coins are boring.

5.) NCLTs and "commemorative coins" constitute money-making schemes, not collectibles.

6.) Coin collecting is a terribly bad investment strategy.

 

Edited April 2 by Ursus

[JAZ Numismatics]

17 minutes ago, Ursus said:

+1

I have a couple of pugnacious opinions when it comes to modern numismatis. Most US and world collectors disagree. It's probably best for everybody that I never got into collecting anything from after 1700:

1.) Slabbing and fussy grading are a marketing strategy to sell boring coins to rookie collectors at inflated prices.

2.) Serious collectors know their coins better than the label on the slab.

3.) The more worthwhile a numismatic field is, the less nitpicky people are about grading. (That doesn't only refer to ancients. I know people who, for example, specialize in collecting American tokens, German notgeld, or coins from the Spanish Civil War. They care about historical interest, eye appeal, and completing whatever set they have in mind, not about a highly sophisticated grading scale.)

4.) 20th/21st century US coins are boring.

5.) NCLTs and "commemorative coins" constitute money-making schemes, not collectibles.

6.) Coin collecting is a terribly bad investment strategy.

 

That's a pretty good assessment. I would add that many of the collectors of US coins that I meet at shows are not interested in numismatics, but rather in speculation. How low a price can I pay, how much profit can I make, etc. I have one friend that collects nothing but Morgan dollars in slabs so that he can flip them. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but if you don't care about numismatics, you may as well be collecting beanie babies. I'm a dealer and it's my job to speculate, and if I don't do it well, my business goes under. That being said, it's not my favorite part of the gig. What I really like is collecting beautiful and sometimes rare coins, researching them, photographing them, discussing them, learning something new, etc. I just happen to sell them as well.

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, Ursus said:

+1

I have a couple of pugnacious opinions when it comes to modern numismatics. Most US and world collectors disagree. It's probably best for everybody that I never got into collecting anything from after 1700:

1.) Slabbing and fussy grading are a marketing strategy to sell boring coins to rookie collectors at inflated prices.

2.) Serious collectors know their coins better than the label on the slab.

3.) The more worthwhile a numismatic field is, the less nitpicky people are about grading. (That doesn't only refer to ancients. I know people who, for example, specialize in collecting American tokens, German notgeld, or coins from the Spanish Civil War. They care about historical interest, eye appeal, and completing whatever set they have in mind, not about a highly sophisticated grading scale.)

4.) 20th/21st century US coins are boring.

5.) NCLTs and "commemorative coins" constitute money-making schemes, not collectibles.

6.) Coin collecting is a terribly bad investment strategy.

 

Slabs do somewhat ruin the enjoyment of collecting. I don't care what anyone else does with their coins, but this grading system that no-one agreed to or asked for has come in to judge everyone's coins on arbitrary and irrelevant measures. It imposes judgements most people would not make if they weren't told they mattered by self-styled experts. I know I didn't before I was 'taught' what to like (which I've had to unlearn).

The original point of a grade was to help collectors buy coins unseen. Grades are now irrelevant except to rank near-identical coins. 'Mine is better than yours' is not collecting and fortunately is not part of collecting ancients. I've bought milled coins specifically because they have test cuts and countermarks - which to me are historically interesting - but those are deemed 'damaged' by the self-appointed judges. No, they're not damaged. They're as valued in my collection as the least worn coins because they have a better story than something that went from mint to slab. Conversely, coins in slabs are 'damaged' since they have an ugly deposit wrapped around them that needs careful removal before it infects other coins.

I really do feel for moderns collectors who want to get away from all that nonsense. It is hard.

[Hrefn]

I don’t hate slabs.  As a protection for modern coins with a mirror proof finish, they can serve a useful function.  But neither slabs, nor the grading criteria which they bring with them, belong in the field of ancient or medieval coins.  The grading criteria appropriate to modern mass-produced coins stamped out by machines, and variably hand-struck coins from hand-engraved dies, which circulate, are counter stamped,  buried in a pot for a millennium or two, cleaned to different degrees with differing levels of skill, then pass thru the hands and cabinets of collectors, sometimes for centuries - well, the standards applicable to one group do not fit the other very well.  

Slabs interfere with one of the pleasures of ancient coin collecting;  handling something held by a citizen of ancient Athens, a Roman legionary, a crusader, or a soldier of Tamerlane.  

And last, the slab is no guarantee of authenticity, nor is it always completely accurate.  So it can be relied upon for neither of these qualities.  And, you pay for the privilege of having your coins slabbed.  

[Rand]

Feel free to throw stones at me.

As collectors, we have not only the privilege to handle the coins but also a duty to preserve them for those who have them in 100 years, 1000 years, 1,000,000 (hopefully) years. I am not convinced the market is doing its best, with so many coins damaged by handing and ‘improvements’. Last week, I received a wonderful coin, which I found rather harshly and totally unnecessarily cleaned from one side (probably to remove a tiny scratch). What a shame.

I used to collect banknotes (QEII). There was a good, active FB forum about them with similar discussions to NF and a general dislike of PNG/PCGS gradings and holders. Collectors were confident in the safe handling, safe storage, and the ability to grade them. Of course, releasing entombed banknotes to breathe was widely applauded. I have learned about how banknotes needed air to breathe—in my naivety I thought oxidation was harmful. 

I liked good, beautiful prints and only collected higher grades (PMG67-68). To my disappointment, almost all ungraded banknotes I received from humid countries (Singapore, Ceylon, etc) had environmental problems, like foxing; uncirculated banknotes often had marks from fingers, and other unreported problems were common.

I did not like PMG holders, but I felt they provided good protection, at least better than in ‘fresh air’. I do not like NGC slabs, but I forgive their bulk and ugliness if they keep coins from ‘improving hands’. I admit I am glad that 95%+ of my coins are not slabbed.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

35 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

... well, the standards applicable to one group do not fit the other very well.  

Slabs interfere with one of the pleasures of ancient coin collecting;  handling something held by a citizen of ancient Athens, a Roman legionary, a crusader, or a soldier of Tamerlane.  

And last, the slab is no guarantee of authenticity, nor is it always completely accurate.  So it can be relied upon for neither of these qualities.  And, you pay for the privilege of having your coins slabbed.  

Yes, I agree.

Although I don't collect extreme slugs, even something like my recent Trajan cull sestertius received the respect of having a story made up about it.  A coin like that could start a collecting journey for someone.

There are certain times where marks and other 'damage' are actually pluses for me, such as my recent Egyptian? Athens tet - the scorpion countermark and the marks on the reverse.

[ewomack]

Having lived on both sides of the modern/ancient fence, I can attest that plenty of stereotypes exist on both sides, some fair, some not fair.

It really all comes down to personal preference. I will admit that I did become bored with moderns, except for early coppers (half cents), and 20th century Japanese coins (dragon Yens). But I became highly interested in a sometimes maligned genre on both sides: Byzantines. So no one likes me. 😁

When in modern mode, I didn't buy slabs because I thought that they were fantastic inventions, but mostly because I've had a much easier time selling slabbed modern coins than raw coins. For better or worse, they became a standard for moderns. It's very hard to avoid them. I can't say I love them, but I do understand them to a degree.

Some modern collectors find ancient collectors "snooty." And, well, some are. But some modern collectors are also snooty.

Some modern collectors think that only PhDs and academics collect ancient coins because so much knowledge of history is required. We know that isn't true, but a knowledge of history certainly doesn't hurt.

I can understand both ways of collecting. Both have their ups and downs, neither is perfect. But both types of collectors have far more in common with each other than with the general public at large, the majority of who don't collect coins.

[sand]

As a collector of ancients, medievals, and moderns, I find the OP post very funny.

Perhaps because I collect all 3 of the above categories, I differ from the modern collector stereotype, somewhat. I don't care about error coins. None of my coins are in slabs. I don't care about the "grade" of a coin. I won't pay a ridiculous price, for a coin that is MS-63 versus MS-62, or MS-63 star plus plus (or whatever they call it) versus MS-63. And, I touch all of my coins with my hands, except for 1 silver uncirculated set, and 1 silver proof set. However, if a coin is shiny, then I try to hold the coin by the edges.

On the other hand, I have a few things in common, with the modern collector stereotype. I have 1 series, which is all Lincoln cents from 1909 through 2009 except for a few oddities and errors. That's my only series. Many moderns collectors seem to like series. I keep my Lincolns, in pretty blue Whitman albums with sliding transparent covers, so I can see the obverse and reverse of each coin. Many moderns collectors seem to like albums. And, I try to get the nicest looking coins, that I can. Although, that can be said, about many ancients collectors also.

Edited April 3 by sand

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

15 hours ago, ewomack said:

Some modern collectors find ancient collectors "snooty." And, well, some are. But some modern collectors are also snooty.

I this think this is definitely true, for better and for worse. Ancient coin collecting is far more difficult than any modern series and requires a significant investment of time and money to even learn about, let alone collect. Unlike moderns, most if not all ancient coin areas require numerous tomes alongside a hefty stack of articles, most difficult or near impossible to obtain. Modern collectors get a $10 book printed each year that tells them exactly what a coin is worth.
 

Ancient collectors often encounter published coins and need to put their knowledge to the test. They have to distinguish between styles and dies. The modern collector (for the vast majority of series), neither will ever encounter an unpublished coin nor need to determine the artistic quality of a die. Anyone can collect funko pops or modern coins from a price book. 

 

That does lead to ancient collectors to look down upon people who buy cook island mint garbage, bullion commemoratives minted in the millions, or disney gold coins. However, I think it’s also important to understand that ancient and modern coin collectors are in the hobby for different reasons.  Modern collectors generally shouldn’t equate ancients with their hobby, and thats often where snobbery can come in. Is it kind? No. Is it correct? In my opinion, yes.
 

I won’t voice that opinion to a modern collector unless asked to, and even then I would respectfully. Even if ancient coins are a more serious endeavor, we can be polite about it

(and I do know some modern collectors who are as academic as ancient collectors)

Edited April 3 by TheTrachyEnjoyer

[Hrefn]

When the sheen of crass commercialism wears off,  I believe there will be many modern commemoratives which will be deemed desirable.  Granted, there is a lot of dross, but there are also a few gems.  

 

 

[panzerman]

On TPG slabs.....

pros/ they protect coin from improper handling/ elements/ oxidation.

cons/ grading is lax/ compared too European/ UK grading standards/ this is esp. true for hammered coins

the data labels lack detailed descriptions(I make my own precise labels)😉

Ancients vs moderns.....

For me "ancients" would be coinage struck from archiac electrum 670BC too Mehmet II's conquest of Constantinople in 1453.

The Medieval/ Renaissance/ Baroque/ Rococo/ Victorian eras produced some of the most beautifull classical designs/ even from 1900- present many nations struck classical type coins/ UK kept the Pistrucci style gold coinage.

Pet peeves....

Some nations/ Canada/ Germany/ Switzerland/ Australia to name a few/ produce God awfull looking crap/ "colored" coins/ Superman/ stupid designs. Little wonder most collectors get into older coins.

Most coins/ came into this World as MS hammered/ milled struck exs. Over time improper handling / use in commerce/ fires/ wars/ weather events took its toll. Thus few coins remain perfect FDC/ MS. Even some proof struck coins were handling thus knocking them down too below MS or details grade. In my world/ all high grade coins should be admired "eyes" only/ no touching with bare fingers.

Dumb & dumber.....

Those idiots that holed certain coins/ like the Bulgarian AV 4 Dukaten of Ferdinand I/ Boris III (cannot find any without that problem! Also is a EID MAR Aureus with a hole punched thru it🙃

Also the dingbat aristocrats that etched their own "value marks" on higher Dukaten coinage/ "X" on 10 Dukaten/ seen "XXV" on Salzburg AV 25 Dukaten from 1612 ex. makes you cringe.