Ethics question: Should we "out" misattributed coins where the current attribution favors the seller?

[kirispupis]

Currently there is a coin listed at a large auction house that I strongly believe is misattributed. Certainly I may be wrong, but I feel pretty confident that I know a) the current attribution is incorrect and b) the correct attribution.

If the seller's attribution is correct, this is a valuable coin. My guess is the 600-800 Euro range.

If my attribution is correct, then this is a common coin that should fetch 10-15 Euros in its current condition.

I did email the auction house concerning the coin. They forwarded it to their description department, who replied that they were quite certain my attribution was incorrect in favor of theirs. I have a very good relationship with this auction house and have purchased many coins from them.

I see misattributed coins all the time, but the question is: should I post the coin here before the live auction has commenced? 

The major argument in favor is to prevent someone from potentially wasting a lot of money.

The major argument against calling out the coin is that anyone who's prepared to spend 600-800 for a coin should do his/her proper research, and that research should reach the same conclusion as mine. If someone doesn't do the research, then it's their own fault.

There's currently only one bid on the coin, but in my experience the primary competitors in this area bid live.

What do you think? Caveat emptor?

 

[Phil Anthos]

I think contacting the auction and explaining your concerns, as you did, is essential. The ball is then in their court and any reaction is their call. 

After that it is indeed "caveat emptor", although I would keep the result in mind if buying there again. 

~ Peter 

[Valentinian]

4 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I see misattributed coins all the time, but the question is: should I post the coin here before the live auction has commenced? 

 

13 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I did email the auction house concerning the coin. They forwarded it to their description department, who replied that they were quite certain my attribution was incorrect in favor of theirs.

Someone is making a mistake. I'd worry it was me. If I knew someone (else) who was an expert in the series of coins, I'd privately contact that individual with my concerns. If that expert confirmed my thought it is misattributed, then I'd go to the next step. 

With such a large difference in value, I think there should be a next step.

[JAZ Numismatics]

Post it and let's see what's up. You don't owe the auction house anything, certainly not concealing possible fraud.

Edited March 27 by JAZ Numismatics

[Roman Collector]

You have more of an ethical duty to your fellow amateur collectors than you do to an auction house staffed by professional numismatists who are supposed to know what they are selling. 

[CPK]

41 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

I think contacting the auction and explaining your concerns, as you did, is essential. The ball is then in their court and any reaction is their call. 

After that it is indeed "caveat emptor", although I would keep the result in mind if buying there again. 

~ Peter 

I agree. I think you did the right thing @kirispupis in forwarding your concerns. What happens next is up to them.

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like this is a coin where attribution isn't as decisive as, say, a Roman Imperial issue, and where there can be room for other opinions. In such a case it's hard to see how the auction house is obligated to overwrite its own attribution in favor of what to them is probably a random emailer, even though it may seem pretty cut-and-dried to you. No disrespect intended, of course - just trying to see it from their point of view. 🙂

I'd be interested in seeing the coin, and your arguments, if you feel like posting it!

 

[Deinomenid]

My major argument against  is the auction houses rarely adjust their listings and deign to even just reply only on occasion.

Just look at all the auctions  up at the moment with known forgeries which are actively being called out on the European forums and sweet nothing  is done there. Let alone with the lesser "crime" of wrong attributions. Right now there are even ones on numisbid I'm  half thinking of  buying as they come from (in reality but  not admitted as such) such fantastic forgers as Caprara and Christodoulos. Should sell them as plate coins in Kinns' book of forgeries!

Listing them  here might make a marginal difference to the final prices and help save a few misguided or  unlucky souls  but generally trying to right these wrongs by calling them out doesn't work. I've wholly given up trying to get a fakes section here, and only sometimes privately point out with reasons very likely fakes to members who post  such. I say this only because if there's so much inertia about fakes there's going to be even more about misattributions.

That said,  educationally it's great to see such posts and  it is at the margin a positive  service. I just wouldn't expect much back for it. Your post won't reach most bidders (just based on our members relative to the reported  purchasing  base) and  some members won't see the post and  some will dispute it or assume worse.

[DonnaML]

21 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

My major argument against  is the auction houses rarely adjust their listings and deign to even just reply only on occasion.

Just look at all the auctions  up at the moment with known forgeries which are actively being called out on the European forums and sweet nothing  is done there. Let alone with the lesser "crime" of wrong attributions. Right now there are even ones on numisbid I'm  half thinking of  buying as they come from (in reality but  not admitted as such) such fantastic forgers as Caprara and Christodoulos. Should sell them as plate coins in Kinns' book of forgeries!

Listing them  here might make a marginal difference to the final prices and help save a few misguided or  unlucky souls  but generally trying to right these wrongs by calling them out doesn't work. I've wholly given up trying to get a fakes section here, and only sometimes privately point out with reasons very likely fakes to members who post  such. I say this only because if there's so much inertia about fakes there's going to be even more about misattributions.

That said,  educationally it's great to see such posts and  it is at the margin a positive  service. I just wouldn't expect much back for it. Your post won't reach most bidders (just based on our members relative to the reported  purchasing  base) and  some members won't see the post and  some will dispute it or assume worse.

What's the name of the German forum again? 

[kirispupis]

Thank you everyone for the responses! I believe this is a positive conversation.

I won't post the coin for now, but for those really curious I'll provide the following huge hint:

The attribution is for a city with only two known examples (AFAIK), both of the same type. I own one of them. This coin has no resemblance to that type (the inscription isn't even the same), so if their attribution is correct it would not only be the third known example, but the first of its type. I provided the auction house with a photo of my coin and a photo of an extremely similar issue to the one they've listed, albeit from a common city.

The following is what I've resolved to do:

If the coin sells for more than 50 Euros, I'll post it here along with my argument for the correct attribution.

If the buyer is then on this forum and so wishes, he/she may return the coin. I believe this is the fairest solution for everyone. 

[Bonshaw]

I just want to say that this is an amazing forum. Such a pleasure to read the nuanced and informed discussions. This thread is an example.

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

What's the name of the German forum again? 

Never mind; I found it. It's https://www.numismatikforum.de/ , specifically the "Fälschungsgalerie" thread.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

While it's not done of nefarious reasons, dealers seem to love to misattribute Byzantine S810.  I haven't even handled many of them, but the feet are such a dead giveaway (as is the weight).  I don't know how they're confused with Constans II.

[Prieure de Sion]

First of all, of course, it should be noted that in the majority of cases there is certainly no malicious intent on the part of the auction houses and shop dealers. When you list hundreds or thousands of coins, mistakes happen to all of us.

And sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees. It has also happened to me that I have searched and searched and searched - but have only found one or two other examples of a coin on acsearch. I thought, wow, a very rare type.

Then a friend adjusted the search criteria and suddenly "hundreds" of coins of the same type were displayed. Rare variant, my arse. But I didn't even think of his search criteria. 

So I don't think there must be any intention behind it. Sometimes - during a search - the human brain only sees what it wants to see.

To the point: report. I am happy to be contacted by a collector. If I assign a coin incorrectly, I am happy to receive feedback. It is important for me to identify the coin correctly - and if this is wrong, it is more of a public embarrassment for me. I am therefore happy to receive information about an incorrect identification - then I can correct it. 

[John Conduitt]

I have never managed to get an auction house to change an attribution even when there is no doubt it is wrong. The same with tooled coins. I’ve posted here and it makes no difference.

You should still post the coin if the difference is significant. Even if the buyer doesn’t see it now, they may do later. Or a later buyer might see it. At the very least people researching the coin will be able to see the problem and avoid making similar mistakes.

[Dwarf]

SPOILER

In the fall of 2023 a small unattributed Greek bronze coin sold for 700 € - and started a thread in the German forum (the primary source of my knowledge here)
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nbsauctions/browse?a=3985&l=4686819
https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=68216

A few weeks later another coin of this type - now attributed - was sold at a slightly higher price (850 CHF)
https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2309804|5623|404|0aae91020103681d2025e67fc24396c5

The third coin was sold in March 2024 for 8 Euro!!!!!, bought by a member of the German forum
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/elkowicz/browse?a=4410&l=5227051

Now another coin attributed to this city is offered.
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4466&l=5324319

• It is difficult to hide anything in today's networked world
• Don't trust any attribution that you haven't checked yourself
• Numismatic is international
• Working with coins is fun

Should I have made wrong guesses - just accept a nice story told

Regards
Klaus

[Kaleun96]

I don't see what the problem is, just post the coin and share your opinions and everyone can make up their own mind. If the auction house has rebutted some of your arguments, it'd be of course fair to mention those as well seeing as it's unlikely they'd comment here themselves.

As long as you do it respectfully and fairly, there should be no issue, especially after you've already contacted the auction house privately first to give them an opportunity to weigh further evidence. Since there still remains a disagreement, I would just post something along the lines of "The auction house says it's from this mint for x and y reasons, I disagree and think it's from this mint for this and that reason". No harm, no foul.

We're allowed to publicly disagree with auction houses, especially for types that lack a robust attribution. Academia doesn't pussyfoot around like this, no reason we must either and I bet we can be a lot less snarky while we do it compared to many academics.

[catadc]

If it's solely to protect potential buyers - no. Education comes at a cost and everyone should do their research before bidding, or bear the cost of ignorance. 

If it's a technical / constructive discussion on coin's attribution, then yes, why not. 

[shanxi]

1 hour ago, Dwarf said:

Should I have made wrong guesses - just accept a nice story told

Amorion is also an interessting city. 

[Spargrodan]

I assume the action house has good intents. With that said wrong attribution happens and I believe it's important to point these out, I think you did the right thing in a very repectfull way. In the end it's the responisbility of booth parties to understand what they are selling or buying.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

3 hours ago, catadc said:

If it's solely to protect potential buyers - no. Education comes at a cost and everyone should do their research before bidding, or bear the cost of ignorance. 

If it's a technical / constructive discussion on coin's attribution, then yes, why not. 

You pay buyers premium for the service of the auction house, one of the most important of which is correct attribution. 

[catadc]

Legally, the nature of the services making the object of the premium are not disclosed in the terms and conditions of the auction. One can assume that a correct attribution is part of these services, but there are no contractual grounds for this assumption. Is there any auction house saying "you pay x% because we do x, y and z for you as buyer"? Moreover, there are a few auction houses offering minimal information on the coins they sell, leave alone attribution. 

[Phil Davis]

I think the coin should be "revealed" now. If the dealer's attribution turns out to be correct, a rare and valuable coin has been given additional exposure. If your attribution is indeed the right one, an unfortunate error will, hopefully, be corrected. An ethical auction house absolutely won't want to profit via a misattribution. Remember, if the error goes uncorrected, it will be perpetuated in the auction aggregators indefinitely, potential misleading future bidders on other coins. It's unlikely to be corrected in the search engines after the fact. I think preventing confusion down the road is the decisive argument. Also, as has been mentioned upthread, I doubt the auction house has a legal obligation to accept a return after the fact, even if their misattribution is proven by experts they trust. (Ethical obligations are another matter.)

[kirispupis]

5 hours ago, Dwarf said:

SPOILER

In the fall of 2023 a small unattributed Greek bronze coin sold for 700 € - and started a thread in the German forum (the primary source of my knowledge here)
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nbsauctions/browse?a=3985&l=4686819
https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=68216

A few weeks later another coin of this type - now attributed - was sold at a slightly higher price (850 CHF)
https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2309804|5623|404|0aae91020103681d2025e67fc24396c5

The third coin was sold in March 2024 for 8 Euro!!!!!, bought by a member of the German forum
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/elkowicz/browse?a=4410&l=5227051

Now another coin attributed to this city is offered.
https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4466&l=5324319

• It is difficult to hide anything in today's networked world
• Don't trust any attribution that you haven't checked yourself
• Numismatic is international
• Working with coins is fun

Should I have made wrong guesses - just accept a nice story told

You hit it. 🙂 

The second coin is mine. I learned of the third yesterday and I have a feeling there will be more.

There's an obvious difference between the fourth (the coin in question) and the previous three. Similar coins have sold a number of times before and were attributed as Amorion.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3482811

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7975391

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9383865

Granted, the text seems to read "TOPI" instead of "MOPI", but this certainly seems to be a huge stretch IMHO - and this is coming from someone who's very liberal in coin attributions. 🙂

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, catadc said:

Legally, the nature of the services making the object of the premium are not disclosed in the terms and conditions of the auction. One can assume that a correct attribution is part of these services, but there are no contractual grounds for this assumption. Is there any auction house saying "you pay x% because we do x, y and z for you as buyer"? Moreover, there are a few auction houses offering minimal information on the coins they sell, leave alone attribution. 

FWIW, I purchased a denarius that turned out to be a fouree from this same auction house. An argument could certainly have been made that it was my fault. An inspection of the image highly suggested a fouree and the weight was a dead ringer. The listing did not mention it as a fouree and I purchased it. The auction house accepted it back and refunded me without questions.

[Rand]

This topic raises a broader question about how dealers describe coins. Common issues include overgrading and assigning various degrees of rarity to rather common coins.

I recently discovered that a few of my best condition coins from top auction houses (e.g., choice extremely fine, almost FDC) were brushed. In all fairness, I did not notice this myself when handling them.

It is common for auctions to say something like, ‘Author XYZ only recorded three examples’. This may be true, but if the book was published 50+ years ago, the available numbers could be completely different now.

Also, a previous thread discussed what to do when a seller misses a true rarity. I do not think many collectors contact dealers about this.

Edited March 27 by Rand