Shipping fees/methods/speed

[lordmarcovan]

I don’t pay enough attention to shipping details, but my feeling is that as long as all the terms and costs are clearly described up front for me to base my decisions on (i.e., factor into the cost of the coin), then it’s up to the seller what they want to charge.  I can either accept that, or walk away and shop somewhere else.  

(I do agree, however, that it is shady for a seller to charge a high price for a basic, slow service and not be transparent about it.)

Here is my most recent purchase, from Ritter via MA-Shops.

Shipped from Germany to USA for $21.40 USD.  As I recall, it was shipped via UPS.  It arrived quickly, within 2 or 3 days.  Regular post for $20+ would seem a bit high to me, but for 2-3 day transatlantic shipping it seems pretty reasonable.  (Whether the price I paid for the coin itself seems reasonable to you is an entirely different question.)

 

Edited April 28 by lordmarcovan

[Prieure de Sion]

33 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

I purchased a coin from a Spanish auction (Tauler & Fau)

Same - but they have some very interesting coins for me. If you have only 1-2 coins, the cost horrible - i know. I have 8 coins, so for every coin under 10 Euro shipping, thats ok. But again - i know what you mean, win 1 or 2 coins makes it expensive.

 

35 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

in EARLY JUNE!!! 

But that`s a problem of the spanish authorities. Tauler & Fau (same Jesus Vico and Aureo Calico) take the original legal way with legal spanish documents - and that will be need 6-8 weeks. Thats real.

I know, some other spanish dealers / auctionhouses shipp faster - but not with the original spanish paper. I know one spanish auction house, they put litte "official" exoport documents (postcard size) in their shipping - but this documents are fantasy self printed "documents".

So yes... 6-8 weeks sucks - but on the other side you get original legal export documents from the spanish authorities.

[Prieure de Sion]

9 minutes ago, lordmarcovan said:

I don’t pay enough attention to shipping details

That's my problem - i think everytime, the companys will take normal costs - and then i am surprised, when a company will take more than the real costs are 😄 

 

10 minutes ago, lordmarcovan said:

Shipped from Germany to USA for $21.40 USD.  As I recall, it was shipped via UPS.  It arrived quickly, within 2 or 3 days.  Regular post for $20+ would seem a bit high to me, but for 2-3 day transatlantic shipping it seems pretty reasonable.  (Whether the price I paid for the coin itself was reasonable is another question.)

And Ritter do well - that's a fine price with UPS. As a German dealer too, i can say, that UPS cost from Germany to USA 21-25 Euro. So Ritter will take the real costs - and nothing else. 

[seth77]

2 hours ago, lordmarcovan said:

I don’t pay enough attention to shipping details, but my feeling is that as long as all the terms and costs are clearly described up front for me to base my decisions on (i.e., factor into the cost of the coin), then it’s up to the seller what they want to charge.  I can either accept that, or walk away and shop somewhere else.  

(I do agree, however, that it is shady for a seller to charge a high price for a basic, slow service and not be transparent about it.)

Here is my most recent purchase, from Ritter via MA-Shops.

Shipped from Germany to USA for $21.40 USD.  As I recall, it was shipped via UPS.  It arrived quickly, within 2 or 3 days.  Regular post for $20+ would seem a bit high to me, but for 2-3 day transatlantic shipping it seems pretty reasonable.  (Whether the price I paid for the coin itself seems reasonable to you is an entirely different question.)

 

I also think that's top value for the money.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Agreed.  Savoca also has fairly cheap Fedex shipping to the U.S.

If I'm ordering anything fragile, I've been having to go the DHL Express way from a certain UK dealer, about double the cost, to avoid the horrors of the floppy mailer.  Expensive, but the stiff envelope negates the drawbacks of the floppy mailer.  Through a combination of shipping cost and partly just for the principle of it, I've cut way back on buying from them.  Which is a shame, since there's many lovely coins.  Oh, and add a phone number (doesn't have to be a valid one) if you choose DHL from them. They don't tell you upfront, but allegedly their DHL carrier requires a phone #, the only time I've had this happen.

If possible, I usually choose the postal route from most European dealers.

 

[Limes]

9 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Today i am little shocked too... 😉 

Make a biddr checkout from a yesterday auction.

 

 

From EU Belgium to EU Germany - 15 Euro for a registered letter? I know registered letter will cost around 8 Euro. Thats a nice winning. 

But 30 Euro for a registered letter with insurance. I know the insurance prices of the market - let me calculate, 8 Euro for the letter and 22 Euro for the insurance of a 500 Euro coin? Normally 99% of the Insurance company`s will take 1% fee of the invoice amount. For a 500 Euro coin = 5 Euro insurance fees. Nice winning.

50 Euro FedEx include insurance. Same. 

Some companies seem to have found a second way to make money. Don't get me wrong - I'm a salesman myself. But if you have earned money from the goods and again from the sales fees. Ok - I understand. But if you now want to earn money from the goods, the sales fees and the shipping. I don't think that's good.

What company is it? It will go on my blacklist. 

I always try to find shopping costs in the terms of a seller. Its very annoying if its not clearly mentioned. 

[Prieure de Sion]

A new "Star" for shipping costs was born 🙂 

https://www.biddr.com/auctions/zeusnumismatics/

 

Ordinary Post from NL to outside NL cost around 5,90 Euro - so the 8,00 Euro was ok.

Registered Shipping with tracking cost from 5,90 Euro to 10,00 Euro (depending on the size), so the 18 euros is just about bearable, but for a small item like a coin, 13 euros is a good profit on the dispatch.

 

Up to this point everything has been just about ok, but now it's getting outrageous in my opinion.

 

Insured Cargo Post NL 45 Euro! I have checked the prices from https://www.postnl.nl/nl - and a middle size parcel cost 10,00 Euro from NL to outside NL plus 5,00 Euro insurance (up to 500 Euro). If you take a big parcel (100x50x50) it was 12 Euro plus 5 Euro insurance. So the price include tracking and insurance with PostNL was from 15-17 Euro! And Zeus will take 45 Euro - a profit of 30 Euro - "respect"! 

Same with DHL EXPRESS prices.

DHL EXPRESS inside EU cost around 20 Euro inclusive 500 Euro insurance - he wants 55 Euro, a profit around 30 Euro.

DHL EXPRESS - for example - to USA inclusive 500 Euro insurance - he wants 65 Euro - costs around 30 Euro - same profit.

The "best" was the "over 500 Euro insurance" prices - 95 Euro he wants outside EU. 

I make an example.
- I send around 30 Euro to USA
- If I send a 2000 Euro coin, the normal insurance price was 1% of the value = 20 Euro
- So the total was around 50 Euro, if it was a 2.000 Euro value parcel. 

If you win a 600 Euro coin / item at his auction - the real shipping costs are 35-40 Euro und you must pay 95 Euro!

 

The highest Shipping prices I have seen actually with Leu Switzerland, when they will send with FedEx (75 CHF). But thats Switzerland - and I know the Shipping cost from Switzerland starts at FedEx around 50-60 Euro - and the the insurance will be added, so the 75 CHF are high, but near really prices you must pay in Switzerland.

 

But this Auctionhouse Zeus will top all other dealers - around 30 Euro or more winning with shipping options - 95 Euro outside EU... thats "funny".

It's starting to piss me off that smaller auction houses in particular are increasingly abusing shipping costs as a lucrative source of income. 

 

@SimonW

I know, biddr is not responsible for the seller's terms! I also don't know what influence biddr has on the sellers. But I don't think it reflects well on the biddr platform if more and more (small) auction houses charge such prices for shipping. We're not talking about ‘expensive shipping’ here Simon - I think that's already heading in the direction of disproportionate exorbitant prices. These shipping costs can't be explained in real terms - and I think that's a problem.

 

 

Edited June 10 by Prieure de Sion

[SimonW]

11 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

@SimonW

I know, biddr is not responsible for the seller's terms! I also don't know what influence biddr has on the sellers. But I don't think it reflects well on the biddr platform if more and more (small) auction houses charge such prices for shipping. We're not talking about ‘expensive shipping’ here Simon - I think that's already heading in the direction of disproportionate exorbitant prices. These shipping costs can't be explained in real terms - and I think that's a problem.

I understand that you are not overly excited about shipping charges that seem excessive. I myself just paid 70 USD to Heritag for a 180 USD coin. That hurts.

But not only are we not responsible for commissions, shipping fees, and the like, we simply have no influence on them. As long as the shipping costs are listed in the auction terms where everyone can find them, there's nothing we can do about it.

For what it's worth, I don't think they deliberately charge high fees to make a profit. High shipping fees usually result in lower hammer prices, which probably costs them more than what they would make by overcharging shipping fees.

[Prieure de Sion]

23 minutes ago, SimonW said:

But not only are we not responsible for commissions, shipping fees, and the like, we simply have no influence on them. As long as the shipping costs are listed in the auction terms where everyone can find them, there's nothing we can do about it.

That is also logical. As long as the seller states everything in the terms, it is of course completely legitimate. In the end, I think the market will sort it out. 

25 minutes ago, SimonW said:

For what it's worth, I don't think they deliberately charge high fees to make a profit. High shipping fees usually result in lower hammer prices, which probably costs them more than what they would make by overcharging shipping fees.

Your argument sounds logical. In the end, you only harm yourself. 

But I really don't understand - as example - why he charges 45 euros for a normal NL Post parcel? I looked it up on the NL Post website. It only costs 10 euros for a medium-sized parcel (up to 60 cm) plus 5 euros insurance. I really don't understand how he gets from a total of 15 euros to 45 euros - not even if you include all the additional costs for shipping.

I think I'll write to him and ask where the 30 euro difference comes from 🙂 

[John Conduitt]

It's obviously done to make sure they don't have hundreds of individual EUR20 coins to pack and ship. People bid on more to spread the cost, and their admin goes down.

How Heritage can justify their shipping charges when they don't sell cheap coins is another matter. Good luck finding their charges in the terms. They have 'calculator' that works out shipping for individual items within the US - no help to anyone.

[ambr0zie]

28 minutes ago, SimonW said:

High shipping fees usually result in lower hammer prices, which probably costs them more than what they would make by overcharging shipping fees.

Yes and no. There are bidders who do not check the auction terms (yes, I know this should be mandatory for any bidder). And the worst part is when you bought from a house a few times in the past so you simply don't check the terms again ... and when you are invoiced you see the surprise, as the house changed the T&C. 

I did this in the weekend - but that particular house did NOT change anything. This is a plus for me and I will keep buying from that house. 

[SimonW]

11 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

Yes and no. There are bidders who do not check the auction terms (yes, I know this should be mandatory for any bidder).

True, but I suspect that this will not happen repeatedly to the same bidder at the same auction house (at least, the second time you can't say it was by surprise). On the contrary, I would say that those bidders may ignore future auctions from that seller out of frustration, which - again - will lead to lower hammers and cost them more than overcharging shipping once.

Edited June 11 by SimonW

[ela126]

didn't want to make my own post about a specific AH. Bertolami Fine Art has a coin auction next week. They mention DHL shipment, but dont list pricing. Does anyone happen to know the DHL shipping cost to the US? there's maybe 2-3 less expensive coins i'd like to buy, but dont want to find out its going to be 50 euro shipping, for a 50 euro coin...

I've emailed them twice, nothing back.

[John Conduitt]

9 minutes ago, ela126 said:

didn't want to make my own post about a specific AH. Bertolami Fine Art has a coin auction next week. They mention DHL shipment, but dont list pricing. Does anyone happen to know the DHL shipping cost to the US? there's maybe 2-3 less expensive coins i'd like to buy, but dont want to find out its going to be 50 euro shipping, for a 50 euro coin...

I've emailed them twice, nothing back.

It could easily be EUR50 because DHL only ship with 3 day delivery. The least from the UK to the US is about EUR40. The only way it will be cheaper is if you don't use DHL.

[ela126]

5 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

It could easily be EUR50 because DHL only ship with 3 day delivery. The least from the UK to the US is about EUR40. The only way it will be cheaper is if you don't use DHL.

fair, i did just realize this is the Prague office holding the auction. Not sure if that helps.

My concern is since they usually deal with art and antiques, i could see them not being concerned with specific 2 figure shipping costs, as i expect they are usually quite pricey for some of the stuff they sell.

[Heliodromus]

I just won a coin for EUR 13 in the recent Rönesans auction. They normally charge EUR 35 for FedEx or DHL shipping to USA (from Germany), but I contacted them before the auction and they were very friendly and agreed that a cheap coin could be sent for less (or they could hold to group with future lots). I asked then to send an updated invoice after the auction, and they only charged EUR 10 for shipping (uninsured, as requested) which seems very reasonable.

 

[robinjojo]

Isn't the responsibility of insuring or not insuring a shipment the seller's?  My understanding is that the risk of shipping always falls on the seller.  The buyer should not assume the risk of a shipment getting waylaid or lost.  That's my fundamental understanding.  So if a shipment is indeed lost the buyer is entitled to a refund, period.

So, yes, speed of shipping can vary by carrier.  But, even for a premium service such as DHL, things can happen, notably Customs delay or transportation problems, that can slow delivery down for even that service.  Having said that, I must say that the fastest shipping from the UK and EU has been DHL Express.  Other carriers, especially the USPS and be slow and sometimes frustrating to track.  FedEx, I've found, falls somewhere between DHL Express and the USPS.

As for costs, yes they've increased significantly, but there really isn't that can be done.  One thing that a collector could try is to combine shipments from the same seller.  I did that with Roma, combining auction lots with after sale lot purchases.  Normally the two transactions would create separate shipping fees, but on some occasions I was able to combine those costs to a single fee.

Edited June 24 by robinjojo

[Heliodromus]

9 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

Isn't the responsibility of insuring or not insuring a shipment the seller's?

I'm pretty sure I've seen different descriptions of when transfer of ownership is considered to take place. Some auction houses say shipping (or pick up) is customer's responsibility, but they'll execute on your wishes.

Personally I'm happy to have a choice. For a cheap coin like this I'd rather just assume the (very small) risk of loss and only pay for basic shipping.

 

[robinjojo]

Yes, it makes sense to use the lowest rate for inexpensive coins. 

In any case the buyer does have recourse to request a refund for any shipment that is lost, through PayPal at least, but this takes a long time and much documentation needs to be submitted by the buyer.  I had to do that last year for three coins totaling over $4,000 that never showed up. 

[Prieure de Sion]

6 hours ago, robinjojo said:

Isn't the responsibility of insuring or not insuring a shipment the seller's?  My understanding is that the risk of shipping always falls on the seller.  The buyer should not assume the risk of a shipment getting waylaid or lost.  That's my fundamental understanding.  So if a shipment is indeed lost the buyer is entitled to a refund, period.

So, yes, speed of shipping can vary by carrier.  But, even for a premium service such as DHL, things can happen, notably Customs delay or transportation problems, that can slow delivery down for even that service.  Having said that, I must say that the fastest shipping from the UK and EU has been DHL Express.  Other carriers, especially the USPS and be slow and sometimes frustrating to track.  FedEx, I've found, falls somewhere between DHL Express and the USPS.

As for costs, yes they've increased significantly, but there really isn't that can be done.  One thing that a collector could try is to combine shipments from the same seller.  I did that with Roma, combining auction lots with after sale lot purchases.  Normally the two transactions would create separate shipping fees, but on some occasions I was able to combine those costs to a single fee.

I am not a lawyer. But I believe that if the deal is between a commercial seller and a private buyer, the commercial seller is always liable. But I only know the law in Germany. Does this law also apply within Europe? All over the world? 

But there is also a very simple option - which is why many retailers no longer want to accept Paypal payments - pay with Paypal. It doesn't matter if you have selected delivery without insurance as the buyer - if the parcel doesn't arrive and you open a case on Paypal, the buyer always gets his money back.

This has advantages for the buyer - but also disadvantages for the seller if it is a dishonest buyer. There are plenty of cases where buyers have reported that they never received the shipment / goods and have opened cases. There are even buyers who open cases a day later, after you have sent the goods (and can no longer get them back). They get the money back from Paypal, you as the seller cannot stop the letter shipment, he gets the money back and does not send you the coin back.

 

[robinjojo]

Yes, that is true.  There are always some dishonest individuals who exploit this return/refund privilege.  

In the case of my return last year, I had to submit emails and screenshots of tracking (or lack of it) to convince PayPal to refund the money, after about three months.  I never did learn about what happened to the shipment.

[Theodosius]

If an auction house sells 1000 lots in their auction and they overcharge every buyer $10 on shipping and insurance that is $10,000 extra. Hold 12 auctions a year and it is $120,000.

That is why they do it. I don't buy from houses that charge far above actual shipping charges, they already charged me 20% fee and almost always charged the seller a fee too. Isn't that enough?

John

[Steppenfool]

I was currently in a bit of a conundrum with N&N London.

My total came to £110. I had to decide whether to pay tracked and insured £35 (+1% for insurance) from FedEx, or taking heed from some users here, e-mail to request the £10 shipping that is not an option to be selected at checkout. 

I settled on the latter due to the fact that the £35 option would take me above the £135 limit where Customs begin to ask for money. This does seem to annoyingly include the delivery free. 

I am not opposed to a Customs fee, it is mainly the potential hassle of a wrong Customs Code, or something else resulting in overpayment, which I dread being sentenced to sort out. 

In addition, I asked them to hold the coins until a later auction. However they only offered to hold them until the next auction, which unfortunately doesn’t include any Philip dynasty antoninianii. 

I have only ever bought an explicitly untracked and insured coin, that clearly states the buyer takes the risk, on one other occasion. This was a 6 week wait from Incitatus coins (the dealer confirmed the historical reliability of this service) and the envelope eventually arrived with stamps from Islamabad and a myriad of other places. Given that this order is only crossing the English Channel instead of an Ocean, I am hoping it arrives quicker after a more straightforward route. 

Rather than cower before Fortuna, I’ll meet her gaze and post the coins here:
 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Deutsche Post used to be Captain Slow, but I don't know what they've done, but the recent posts from Tom Vossen have been fully as fast as French post and the fastest rivals.  I am not sure if this is only confined to this particular dealer or is widespread, but I'll take it.

As I've mentioned before, avoid U.S. domestic registered mail.  I've had a U.S. coin ordered around Memorial Day, disappear into my city's station and never emerge.  Postal inspection turned up nothing.  It is quite ironic that the method with the most safeguards should be the least safe.  I had done this to avoid getting the package mauled by Priority mail.  The dealer sadly didn't have a first class option and I couldn't contact him due to the horrendous vcoins dealer contact system.

UK Royal mail seems to also have recovered.

[Roman Collector]

What's up with the Belgian postal service? According to Bucephalus, the coin I won at auction was shipped June 19 and they provided me with a tracking number. However, the Belgian postal service claims it has arrived in the US, but the US Postal Service says it has yet to receive the package from the Belgian postal service. Frustrating! It's been almost 3 weeks already! 

Edited July 8 by Roman Collector
Clarity