Shipping fees/methods/speed

[ambr0zie]

Like all of us, I am looking carefully at T&C when buying from an auction. What are the shipping fees, what is the service used, if there are any customs/extra taxes, and, as a side note, I admire a lot houses who somehow manage to ship very quickly. If I find a house that a)sends the package extremely fast (some of them ship the very next day after the auction) and b) uses a good shipping service then it is very likely to buy again from them.

What I noticed in the last months - some houses use abnormal fees. I am not accusing anyone (and I will not name any of them) but I personally don't like this at all. 

Example 1 - last year. T&C - shipping is performed via DHL, shipping fee 28 euros. I was OK with this since from previous shipments from other houses, a 28 EUR DHL is DHL Express. This is a very fast service and for EU to EU deliveries, it takes 48-72 hours. So fair enough. Actual outcome - they shipped after a week and the service was DHL Paket, which is very different from DHL Express, slower and cheaper. 2 extra weeks until it arrived.

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Example 2 - a house I bought from in several situations. Until recently they had 2 shipping fees for EU - 15 euros for post, 25 euros FedEx. I usually chose post and I was OK-ish for 15 euros, thinking it is insured and whatever. Suddenly I saw a change in the T&C

Post (tracked, no insurance, own risk)
• EU : 15EUR
• Non EU: 20EUR

Post (insured up to EUR 500)
• EU: 30 EUR
• Non EU: 40 EUR

FedEx (tracked, no insurance, own risk)
• EU: 25 EUR
• Non EU: 35 EUR

FedEx (insured up to EUR 2000)
• EU: 50 EUR
• Non EU: 70 EUR

I was a little shocked as paying 15 euros for an uninsured postal package or 25 euros for a Fedex uninsured package doesn't seem to ...reassuring. And doubling the fees for insurance seems silly, doesn't it?

I emailed the house, hoping it's en error, after I paid an invoice and I saw on it that the shipping is without insurance, own risk. 

Their reply "thanks for your mail. Unfortunately, this shipment is not insured. We had to add this option because of some lost packages."
Well, I don't see this as a valid argument. Until that moment, the postal fee was 15 euros. For this sum (insude EU) I would expect insurance. If the packages were lost, there should be a refund. Apparently, it isn't. If you want insurance, you need to pay 30/50 EUR. 

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Example 3. Another house I bought from in the past and I was very happy with their DHL Express shipping (as I said, 48-72 hours - price 18.5 euros). So cheap shipping for the quality, right?

Recent auction. I only bought 2 coins and I wasn't very happy with the outcome (no great deals) but I said, hey, at least these guys are fast. I paid the invoice, with the same shipping cost as in the past - after a few days they shipped it.... but with ordinary post. I received a tracking number (and I saw it's NOT a DHL tracking number) and 3 tracking links - one for Post, one for DHL (useless) and one for GLS (very useless). So instead of 48-72 hours, for the same cost, the shipping time will be ~2 weeks. 

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There could be an example 4 but I avoided it. A few days ago I was checking an auction house I never bought from, I saw some possible targets and then I checked the T&C. I immediately closed the browser tab when I saw the shipping fee - 50 euros. Again, from EU to EU. I do not remember the house name but I am sure about the costs. 

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Am I the only one seeing this? Of course nobody would get rich with this but for me this is an example of an easy way to get money. Paying 30 euros for "insured post" sounds silly. Paying almost 30 euros for "DHL" without mentioning "what" DHL is used is also silly. Changing the shipping method  from DHL Express to ordinary post, for the same fee is .... you know, silly. 

Edited February 22 by ambr0zie

[Salomons Cat]

I don't understand why so many people here care so much about shipping speed. Makes no sense to me at all.
When I want a certain type of coin, then I observe auctions and online shops during weeks or months. Until I find the right specimen for the right price.
And after that, I really don't care if they need 3 days or 7 days or 2 weeks for the shipping.

But I agree that you should get what you paid for. If they promised express shipping, then they should do that. And if they didn't, then I would ask for a refund. 

Edited February 22 by Salomons Cat

[ambr0zie]

Because this is how I like, and paying a high price would mean a good service - in this case a fast service. This wasn't my question and I don't have anything against houses who use ordinary post (this means about 2 weeks for me) but for the corrrect fee, not raising the price for the shipping. 

Do you think it's OK to pay 28 euros for slow post? or 18.5 euros for DHL express in 2023 vs 18.5 euros for slow post in 2024? same house? Or 30 euros for slow post if you also want insurance for it? These were the exact examples. 

Edited February 22 by ambr0zie

[Kaleun96]

28 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

I was a little shocked as paying 15 euros for an uninsured postal package or 25 euros for a Fedex uninsured package doesn't seem to ...reassuring. And doubling the fees for insurance seems silly, doesn't it?

I emailed the house, hoping it's en error, after I paid an invoice and I saw on it that the shipping is without insurance, own risk. 

Their reply "thanks for your mail. Unfortunately, this shipment is not insured. We had to add this option because of some lost packages."
Well, I don't see this as a valid argument. Until that moment, the postal fee was 15 euros. For this sum (insude EU) I would expect insurance. If the packages were lost, there should be a refund. Apparently, it isn't. If you want insurance, you need to pay 30/50 EUR. 

Hopefully I'm not derailing the thread too much from the intended purpose but I have always wondered how auction houses offer insurance on shipping. From my understanding, both DHL and FedEx refuse to insure ancient coins (at least when I have asked), as well as my local national postal service. So when I sell coins I always explicitly state that they're not insured even if the shipping option I used says insurance included.

I believe some auction houses have insurance provided through a third-party rather than the carrier. It's possible this auction house is doing the same and hence the arbitrary doubling of the price and lack of insurance on a FedEx parcel, or they're offering their own "insurance" by working out how much $$$ they lose in lost packages each year and how much they would have to charge for shipping to recoup that expected loss.

[Prieure de Sion]

24 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Their reply "thanks for your mail. Unfortunately, this shipment is not insured. We had to add this option because of some lost packages."
Well, I don't see this as a valid argument. Until that moment, the postal fee was 15 euros. For this sum (insude EU) I would expect insurance. If the packages were lost, there should be a refund. Apparently, it isn't. If you want insurance, you need to pay 30/50 EUR. 

 

The problem with non-insurance shipping is, that it was (often) a risk for the seller.

And that's why some sellers add a certain amount to cover the risk of loss.

What risk of the seller? It says there, risk of loss passes to the buyer.

 

But it's not that easy just because it's there. If I ship in Germany (or EU law), the shipping risk always lies with the seller. As a seller, I cannot simply transfer the risk to the buyer. If he doesn't receive the goods, I have to pay him back the money. End. I would lose in court - and the judge doesn't care whether we both agreed at the buyer's risk.

Next uncertain point - PayPal and credit card providers.

If the buyer paid with PayPal and the package/goods does not reach the buyer, then the buyer can open a case that he did not receive the goods. PayPal is not interested in the fact that the buyer has agreed to take on the shipping risk. PayPal will always (!) agree with the buyer if he has not received any goods. And then the money is withdrawn from me as the seller by PayPal. By the way, this happens often - I have experienced it myself and also with many Vcoins colleagues.

And then we have credit card payments. What many people don't know - even a payment by credit card can be canceled by the buyer within 6 weeks! Of course with reasons. But the justification “I demonstrably did not receive the goods” is sufficient here too. If the customer has not received any goods, he or she can cancel. No matter what was previously agreed. The banks don't care! No goods. No money. This has happened many times too. Canceling the credit card payment always works if you haven't received any goods. As a seller, I don't know of any case where you could successfully object to this cancellation.

 

I understand what you mean. I once had to pay almost 70 euros (!) in shipping costs for a 35 euro coin at Heritage Europe from the Netherlands to Germany. Sometimes I think whether a retailer also wants to make money from shipping.

But sometimes there is also gray in addition to black and white.

[Prieure de Sion]

2 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

Hopefully I'm not derailing the thread too much from the intended purpose but I have always wondered how auction houses offer insurance on shipping. From my understanding, both DHL and FedEx refuse to insure ancient coins (at least when I have asked), as well as my local national postal service. So when I sell coins I always explicitly state that they're not insured even if the shipping option I used says insurance included.

I believe some auction houses have insurance provided through a third-party rather than the carrier. It's possible this auction house is doing the same and hence the arbitrary doubling of the price and lack of insurance on a FedEx parcel, or they're offering their own "insurance" by working out how much $$$ they lose in lost packages each year and how much they would have to charge for shipping to recoup that expected loss.

The base price is always insured - even with DHL or UPS - even if it is coins. For DHL this is 500 euros and for UPS it is 510 euros. But if coins are more expensive (class 2 securities) - then the contents are no longer insured.

Then as a seller you take out extra insurance - I have this one for example:

https://www.secursus.com/en-gb/ 

 

 

[ambr0zie]

As an end customer, I don't really understand how some houses reach the shipping costs they offer. 

Here is an example from my favorite house, my latest invoice. 

FedEx shipping. 15 Euros + 1% insurance. As a side note, this house always ships extremely fast. Is this a decisive factor? No. I can wait a week until the seller prepares the package. But a quick shipping means good service + respect for the customer. 

How come others use totally different prices for much cheaper (as in - worse, because they are not cheap) services? This is the question. And I keep my initial opinion - cheap way to make money. 

I refuse to believe the fee for uninsured postal service is 15 euros and for insured postal service this is 30. 

Edited February 22 by ambr0zie

[ela126]

As a US buyer from Europe, who is only buying 200-600 euro purchases. The huge variance in shippping costs are frustrating from the different AH's. I see anywhere from 15 euro for basic, uninsured post. Up to 50 euro and beyond DHL uninsured post. This isn't brining up insurance, which i'm sure expands cost by another 5-15%. AH's are not doing themselves a service by only offering high cost options as it directly discourages bidding on their auctions. Making profit in 1 area by sacrificing in another...

[Prieure de Sion]

23 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

How come others use totally different prices for much cheaper services? This is the question.

One example - different prices in the countrys. And how many parcels you are sending with different conditions and discounts. 

When you ship 20 parcels per week you get other conditions like 1 parcel in the week.

And as i said - countrys. Its impossible for me to send for 15 EUR with FedEx from Germany to Outside Germany. I never get this price here in Germany for FedEx shipping. When i sip to USA or similar - minimum 25 Euro with UPS and near 40 Euro with FedEx and TNT. UPS was the cheapest here in Germany. 

I know that shipping from Switzerland with FedEx is more expensive. The seller pay 40-60 CHF for a FedEx parcel from Switzerland to another land. Your 15 Euro is for a Swiss Seller not possible. He dont get this price from FedEx - no chance.

 

[ambr0zie]

I totally agree with you, @Prieure de Sion. I know a small seller would not get these offers from FedEx. And I am sure a small seller cannot send DHL Express for 18.5 euros, from EU to a different EU country. 

But on the other hand, I don't think and ordinary letter costs 28 euros/15 euros (30 with insurance)/ 18.5 euros (when the same house used DHL Express not long ago for the same price - 18.5 euros).. Same with the "insured FedEx" for 50 euros - this is extra charge for the customer. 

I suspect this is what is called "pecking" in my language, in an approximate translation. They add something to the normal shipping costs as ... tips. For me, this is enough to stop buying from these houses. 

Edited February 22 by ambr0zie

[Prieure de Sion]

Take a look here - I ship via the service provider JUMINGO - that's a shipping provider where I get better prices. Because JUMINGO books packages from many companies with UPS, FedEx and Co, you get better prices!

This means that if I booked directly from UPS and Co from Germany, I would have to pay even more money!

Look - I just opened the input mask. Package 27x20x5cm with 0.5 kilos from germany to USA.

The cheapest is UPS for around 25 euros. If I want to ship with DHL Express 48 euros and with FedEx and TNT I pay over 50 euros! I can't offer you the 15 euros even if I want to.

But perhaps as an auction house that ships a lot you have a slightly better contract. But a small retailer cannot conclude such a contract. And then it also varies depending on the country. A dealer from Poland pays different amounts than a dealer from Germany, pays different amounts than a dealer from France, pays different amounts than a dealer from Switzerland.

 

[Prieure de Sion]

And this was a normal Post DHL (not DHL Experess - this are two different companys!) shipping.

From Germany to USA.

As a big letter without insurance, without tracking from 12 to 19 Euro!

As a parcel with tracking and with insurance 48 Euro!

Thats a normal post shipping.

 

Please attention - its not allowed to send outside EU goods with a normal letter with a normal stamp! Some seller do this. But if you send outside EU you must send it with a outside export declaration and export registration. If you send it as a letter with a normal stamp - its possible the shipment is returned or confiscated!

So if you ask me as a german dealer - can you send it withouzt tracking and insurance with a simple large envelope - yes - i can - for 12 Euro!

12 Euro without tracking, without insurance as a simple large envelope "letter" shipping.

 

[ela126]

interesting information, thank you for Assembling @Prieure de Sion. is Deutsche post an option? I actually like when AH's ship their local options as the letters are sometimes fun. 

I must say the arguement you present, while it is valid, just discourages me from bidding from AH's who are doing the correct methods. I have a rather hard rule where shipping can never be more than 10% of my purchase. While this is no problem for Tetradrachm and gold purchases, a bronze collector must be choosey where they buy from due to this.

[seth77]

I agree 100% with @ambr0zie. At this point most quotas for intra-EU shipping from biddr auction houses are disrespectful towards would-be buyers. How are you going to charge 15 to 30EUR registered letter from AT, NL or DE to 2-3 countries away when I know for a fact from getting the same postal service from ebay at c. 5-6EUR? What is the added value that you bring when asking 5-6 times the postal fee for the same basic service? That is why I keep giving business to the good guys: those who answer emails, who are reliable to keep their service transparent cost-wise and are predictable with their ETA. The whole Covid situation has been great for unscrupulous individuals and businesses in providing a cover for their predatory practices and in encouraging an overall lack of respect towards the collector.

Edited February 22 by seth77

[Prieure de Sion]

10 minutes ago, ela126 said:

interesting information, thank you for Assembling @Prieure de Sion. is Deutsche post an option? I actually like when AH's ship their local options as the letters are sometimes fun. 

I can only speak for myself.

Within the EU - yes! A package from Germany to France costs me less with “Deutsche Post” than UPS or FedEx. The running time is ok. And the insurance is up to 500 euros. Within Germany I almost only use Deutsche Post (5.50 euros shipping costs).

Outside the EU - actually no.

Because a normal letter with registered mail cannot be accepted. It is forbidden to send goods subject to customs duties in a normal letter (although some sellers do it). A registered letter from Germany to the USA costs 7.20 euros. But there is a risk that the goods will be confiscated. And it's a risk that the authorities will come after me.

If I send it as an “inexpensive parcel without insurance but with tracking” with export registration, it costs me around 18 euros. But it's terribly slow. However, if I send it as a "normal package" by post, it costs almost 50 euros - and it's still slow.

A UPS package comes with tracking and insurance and costs me 7 euros more than the cheap postal package - which is why I almost never use Deutsche Post outside the EU.

In my shop - as an example - US customers pay 20 euros for shipping. I pay the remaining 5 euros myself. I send 99% of the time via UPS. I only use FedEx (faster, more reliable) for very expensive coins. I earn more on expensive coins - the customers still only pay 20 euros for shipping, I pay the remaining 30 euros for FedEx myself. But with coins for 2-3000 euros (or more) you can also pay a little more yourself.

[Prieure de Sion]

But i know what you "all" mean... as i said - i pay around 70 Euros for shipping a coin won at Heritage Europe from Netherlands to Germany - the neighbor country! And there is no reason collect 70 Euro for shipping from Netherland to Germany. This is simply outrageous.

But you should note - at the end of 2023 I paid 21 euros for UPS from DE to the USA - today it's almost 26 euros. That's around a 25% surcharge at the beginning of 2024. All shipping service providers have increased their prices extremely (inflation and energy prices, they say). This must also be taken into account.

[ambr0zie]

@Prieure de Sion, I want to clarify that you are not in my list of sellers with expensive and unjustified shipping fees. I only bought once from you and I was very pleased with the process. You used the correct price for your shipping method and you were exceptionally fast. 

The reason for not purchasing from you more is simple - I haven't found the right coin for me in your offer. I am pretty sure this will happen and when it does, I will not hesitate. 

@seth77 really said it. 

And yes, I am fully aware that a large seller/auction house has a special contract with their provider so they can offer smaller prices. 

But let's be serious. I provided a clear example. I was charged 28 euros for a DHL Paket, sent from Germany. WIthout even mentioning it's DHL Paket. I know a gentleman from Germany (a private, small seller). He sometimes ships packages to me using DHL Paket. He doesn;t even have a contract with them so he has no special offers, but the price he pays for shipping is under 20 euros. Surely an auction house has a contract with DHL for DHL Paket service. It can't be more expensive. Like I said, this is nothing more than an unjustified cost. 

Same for normal letters. 

Edited February 22 by ambr0zie

[seth77]

I bought from Fitz Coins (and I wish I could buy more from them, in a lot of ways they remind me of Savoca and Gitbud & Naumann in 2014-15), which is a very new enterprise, at least online: 15EUR for DHL Paket, and I think it's a flat rate for EU. So not even the excuses I have read on a German forum about new auction houses being charged unreasonably by transporters pans out. I sometimes buy medievals from a big Polish auction house: 10EUR UPS straight to door delivery. I buy from an incredibly swift Slovenian firm, also I think a newcomer in the business: 15EUR 16-24hr DHL Express delivery, if I pay on Sunday the envelope is at my doorstep on Tuesday morning. I made it a habit to buy from Savoca weekly even if I'm not particularly thrilled by anything, because the prices of item+shipping are right and they provide excellent contact and post-buy services and I really want them around for a long time. I would say that this is the ballpark of normality. Unfortunately "normality" is increasingly rare.

Edited February 22 by seth77

[Kaleun96]

1 hour ago, Prieure de Sion said:

The base price is always insured - even with DHL or UPS - even if it is coins. For DHL this is 500 euros and for UPS it is 510 euros. But if coins are more expensive (class 2 securities) - then the contents are no longer insured.

This is just what the DHL rep told me, they'd not cover the loss of any goods considered to be antiques, which included collectible coins older than 100 years. 

I can only find reference to this for DHL Freight and DHL eCommerce services. I can't see any terms and conditions for DHL Express that explicitly exclude certain goods from the insurance for that service but I also didn't look for too long.

[ela126]

I have to give credit to Nimrod Numismatics (newer AH on biddr, they had a nice Byzantine selection), I emailed Kristian before the auction about the shipping, which in terms were listed as DHL 50 euros, Germany to US. Very accommodatingly, I was told less expensive options are available. I won 4 coins on auction and Kristian managed to get me tracked shipping for 25 euros, which is definitely acceptable. 
 

 

[ambr0zie]

8 hours ago, ela126 said:

I emailed Kristian before the auction about the shipping, which in terms were listed as DHL 50 euros, Germany to US. Very accommodatingly, I was told less expensive options are available

This means one thing - that house wants your money in a fair way. So you will probably buy from them in the future. This means they are a legit business with respect for the customer. 

I saw that some collegues misunderstood what I mean. If it looks like I want ultra express shipping for 2 euros, sent 5 minutes after auction end, this was never the case. 

All I want is to receive what I pay for. This means one thing - send me with the shipping I pay for, without squeezing money. Ship in in a timely manner (I deeply respect houses who ship 1 day after the auction, but I do not expect this for all the houses. 3 days are OK. A week is OK. 2 weeks AND a slow shipping are not OK for me, especially if you charge me extra just... because). 

But this part - charge more for shipping (without a fair reason) is simply a lack of respect. Let's squeeze extra money, why not. If we do this for 100 customers, this is a nice pile of cash. 

I have a clear example - I described it. A house always shipped using DHL Express. Suddenly they changed the method to ordinary post. WIth the same fee. I found this out only after I received the shipping confirmation. Initially I didn't even care too much (although this made me initially consider if I want to buy from them in the future), but this wasn't all. The package didn't arrive in normal time (normal time for postal shipments!). The envelope was stuck close to my town. Reason? The house managed to mistype my town name and the actual town was different. And the Post, in its infinite wisdom, couldn't care less so was in the process of returning to sender. I spent almost all day, Friday, to solve this. Phone calls over phone calls and I even went myself to a Post warehouse (in a remote location far from me) and the only thing I managed was to arrange rerouting it to me, sometime next week. Seeing the incompetence of these people, I am not sure they will manage to deliver it. 

I informed the house and their answer was "we're sorry, if it comes back to us we will ship it to you via DHL Express". 

Ah, so now you are able to ship via DHL Express, but you wanted to see what happens if you ship it via Post and typing the wrong address. 

Edited February 24 by ambr0zie

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

It does matter to me.  I usually won't buy from a firm if the shipping is outragous or the service is super slow.

I've only bought one coin from Austria.  This wasn't the dealer's fault, but I had to wait two or three weeks for the ridiculous export permit.  Through no fault of their own, that firm went into the only-if-I'm-really-desperate category.  The coin itself was pretty darn nice and a fairly decent bargain.

Then there's a Dutch dealer.  I'm very pleased with the coins, but both times it took forever.  Other people have reported normal shipping from this dealer.  Perhaps I was just super unlucky.  Being a Captain Slow is better than a broken or lost coin.

I do wish that Savoca offered more than one shipping option, but their FedEx is lower than other dealers and it's fast.  Does it cut down on my orders from them?  Yes, a teeny bit, but not tremendously.

 

[ambr0zie]

I bought from a fair number of houses, but Savoca offer, by far, the best customer experience I have ever encountered. 

Fast and cheap shipping. Extremely fast sending (I don't know how they do it, but auctions are ended late at night and at 5-6 AM the parcels are prepared for shipping). Every time I had a query (related to shipping or numismatic queries) the replies were polite, friendly and accurate. 

A slow shipping is, of course, better than broken/lost parcels. But my problem is slow + expensive shipping. And, like in my current case, slow, expensive and wrong shipping due to incompetence. 

[Heliodromus]

1 hour ago, ambr0zie said:

I bought from a fair number of houses, but Savoca offer, by far, the best customer experience I have ever encountered. 

Fast and cheap shipping. Extremely fast sending (I don't know how they do it, but auctions are ended late at night and at 5-6 AM the parcels are prepared for shipping).

Yes - I bought this coin below from them in an auction earlier this month, and it arrived at my door in the US 2 days after the auction closed (via FedEx, costing EUR 25). In comparison I also just received a couple of coins from NBS and paid EUR 18 for registered mail. NBS also shipped quickly (4 days to get in mail), and the packet took 9 days to arrive from Netherlands, so very happy with that too. Still, the premium Savoca is charging for expedited FedEx is minimal and the immediate shipping is amazing!

I agree with you on this.. I don't mind more expensive shipping as long as the time from payment to me receiving it is fast. But, please don't charge a premium for shipping if you aren't going to use an expedited service (FedEx or DHL), or aren't able to get it rapidly packed and shipped.

 

Edited February 24 by Heliodromus

[catadc]

I also noticed that shipping fees increased during the last haft year. Probably we notice this because we bid on low value coins (nothing wrong with this). Or, if we  miss a sole main target, the shipping of any prior "snack" can hurt.

Luckily, I live close to a multiple border. Last but least purchase was shipped to a friend's address across the border for 3 EUR regular post. Not once I chose regular post, as the post is reliable in the Western Europe, and chose the more expensive transport for rare and hard to replace coins.