Anybody have any "Paduans"?

[Roman Collector]

It appears that I am the proud owner of a Paduan depicting Faustina the Younger!

Traditionally, the term Paduan is reserved for those medallions crafted by the 16th century engraver Giovanni da Cavino in cooperation with the numismatist Alessandro Bassiano. CoinsWeekly has a great article about Cavino, Bassiano, and the purpose of these Paduan medals.

Some numismatists reserve the term Paduan for those coins in Richard Hoe Lawrence's 1883 catalog of these medals, to distinguish them from subsequent imitations, fantasy pieces, and forgeries by other artists. However, Lawrence's catalog is incomplete, and other resources, particularly C. Johnson & R. Martini's Milano, Civiche Raccolte Numismatische. Le Medaglie del secolo XVI. Cavino (Rome. 1989), contain medallions thought to have been made by Cavino that do not appear in Lawrence. Such is the case with this one.

Cavino lived in the 16th century. Over the centuries, casts and aftercasts were made of his medallions and these vary in quality, from crisp, well-executed copies to soapy-feeling ugly pieces with mushy details. From time to time, these Paduans (and their subsequent copies) appear on the market, occasionally as genuine pieces (such as the Calligula three sisters sestertius type). Here's the one in my collection. Statistically, it is likely to be a cast of a Cavino medallion, or an aftercast, and not one manufactured in Padua in the 1500s. But its details are pretty crisp compared to some others that have appeared on the market.

Faustina II, 147-175 CE.
Æ Cast "Sestertius," 22.23 g, 32.1 mm; 6 h.
Paduan type of Giovanni da Cavino, 1500-1570.
Obv: FAVSTINA AVG PII AVG FIL, bare-headed and draped bust, right (Beckmann Type 2 hairstyle).
Rev: Carpentum drawn by two mules, right, SPQR in exergue.
Refs: Lawrence --; Johnson & Martini 1742-43; Klawans --; cf. Kampm. 38.28.

About the Design

This isn't a forgery because it doesn't copy any issue of Faustina the Younger. It combines an obverse design used during Faustina's lifetime (about June 152 through Autumn 154 CE) with a posthumous reverse design used for many empresses who preceded her, including her mother (RIC 1141, but reading EX S C in the exergue). It, of course, makes no sense to combine a lifetime obverse with a posthumous reverse type. That's why the ancient Roman mint didn't produce such a coin and why it's best to consider this a fantasy piece.

Why did I buy this?

Even if it's not ancient, it's an interesting piece of numismatic history! It features the artistry of Giovanni da Cavino and may date to the sixteenth century. These Paduans are collectable in their own right, and they add variety and interest to a collection. It makes me want to listen to 16th century Italian music!
 

Do you have any Paduans? Let's see them!!!

Edited July 2, 2023 by Roman Collector
It needed a comma after a subordinate clause. I'm OCD that way.

[Limes]

Congratulations, and thanks for the write up. Although personally (but that is just my opinion!) I'm not interested in collecting paduan issues,I can see that they are (historically) interesting pieces that deserve to be collected!  

[Jay GT4]

Very nice.  I have a Vespasian aftercast coming from @KenDorney that should arrive this week.  I've always wanted an original struck version, but they are getting more and more difficult to find.  And when you do find one, well, there's always the price!  A well done aftercast is a good option.  Congrats!

[Ryro]

Very cool! And interesting that they intentional made a mule with the two sides not matching. 

I've never had the paduan bug. Best I can do is offer some MSC forgeries:

 

[Marsyas Mike]

Very nice, @Roman Collector   I really like those mules!

I'm an accidental Paduan collector, with one pick up from eBay a while back.  It was the price, gosh darn it, they always get me on the price...the seller, to his credit, had no idea what it was and made no ancient claims for it: 

Claudius  Æ Sestertius/Medal Paduan copy after Da Cavino (50-54 A.D. type; 1500-1570 or later 19th C. restrike?) TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP P P, laureate head right / NERO CLAVDIVS DRVSVS GERMAN IMP, S C Arch of Drusus with statue. RIC 114 type (Paduan copy) (18.16 grams / 31 mm)  eBay July 2019 $25.00

Mine has "ancient" surfaces - whether from genuine Renaissance-era burial or somebody dirtying it up for the eBay fake trade or a later c. 19th C. fake of a fake:

CNG had one at auction a while back that is a dead-ringer for mine, but cleaner (die-match or mold-match?):

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=102865#

 

[Prieure de Sion]

I only have one Paduan, but an original Giovanni da Cavino from the 16th century - from the stamp of Klawan 1. I have already presented the Caligula Paduan here4 a few times. The last time here in this thread: https://www.numisforums.com/topic/3759-yothr-coins-of-the-day-4242023-basil-i-constantine-a-christ-pantokrator-gold-solidus/?do=findComment&comment=47419

 

[JeandAcre]

Cool stuff.  All you have to do is like the Renaissance for its own sake, and Paduans become integral to the whole ethos.  ...Now I'm curious.  How do Beckers compare in the current market?

[ominus1]

..ironically i don't have any paduans....yet! :D...i think they're kool pieces in their own right! ^^...BUt i do have these 2 beauties.. they are high ranking coins in my collection 

Edited April 29, 2023 by ominus1

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

Some of those Paduans are pretty nice and now, collectible for their own sake, I suppose.

[septim]

I own one Paduan medal:

AV: FAVSTINA AVG – ANTONINI AVG PII FIL - draped bust of Faustina the younger right

RV: Faustina standing left, sacrifying over burning altar, child to her right attendant on opposite side of altar holding sipulum, in the background two woman on each side; Neptun within hexastyle belvedere
36 mm - 28,5 g

Had the chance to purchase it and the price tag screamed: "Buy me now" 😉

 

[KenDorney]

3 minutes ago, septim said:

Had the chance to purchase it and the price tag screamed: "Buy me now" 😉

Wow. Truly amazing and fantastic ‘coin’. If you ever part with it, it would have a home with me!

[JeandAcre]

57 minutes ago, ominus1 said:

..ironically i don't have any paduans....yet! :D...i think they're kool pieces in their own right! ^^...BUt i do have these 2 beauties.. they are high ranking coins in my collection 

Yesss!  Thanks, @ominus1, for stepping up to the plate.

[hotwheelsearl]

1 hour ago, ominus1 said:

..ironically i don't have any paduans....yet! :D...i think they're kool pieces in their own right! ^^...BUt i do have these 2 beauties.. they are high ranking coins in my collection 

What are these? Museum replicas?

[ominus1]

9 minutes ago, hotwheelsearl said:

What are these? Museum replicas?

 

[JeandAcre]

If you go back far enough, lots of the 'Introductions to Coin Collecting' I saw as a kid covered both Beckers and Paduans as a matter of course.  ...There's a fun story for Becker.  He's vaguely 18th-century German (...@ominus1?), and, as a kid just starting out collecting, was sold a couple of fakes by an aristocrat.  When he spotted them, the aristocrat told him, in effect, 'that's what you get for not knowing your stuff.'  Becker proceeded to learn so much about counterfeits that he wound up making some of the best of them himself.

...I can't help being reminded of my own learning curve where sniping was concerned!  

[ominus1]

this is a replica of a mule i reckon(the obverse is NOT Gll)....but i wouldn't know the authors name

Edited April 29, 2023 by ominus1

[Marsyas Mike]

It just occurred to me that this might be a Paduan-esque something or other.  I bought it from a local dealer, thinking it was a Roman Provincial (I knew nothing - I repeat, nothing - about Roman Provincials!). 

It was one of my first posts on Coin Talk and everybody let me down very gently. 

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/julia-domna-geta-two-headed-bronze-identification-help-please.292057/

The local dealer handles a lot of ancients and is generally reliable, but he had no idea what it was either; I could've returned it, but I kind of like the weird thing.  About the size of a nickel, but 3-4 times as thick, it features a late-style portrait and titles (FELIX) of Julia Domna and a little boy version of Geta.  It corresponds to nothing ancient in size, design, fabric, etc.  

It is very thick:

Edited April 29, 2023 by Marsyas Mike

[Roman Collector]

2 hours ago, Marsyas Mike said:

It just occurred to me that this might be a Paduan-esque something or other.  I bought it from a local dealer, thinking it was a Roman Provincial (I knew nothing - I repeat, nothing - about Roman Provincials!). 

It was one of my first posts on Coin Talk and everybody let me down very gently. 

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/julia-domna-geta-two-headed-bronze-identification-help-please.292057/

The local dealer handles a lot of ancients and is generally reliable, but he had no idea what it was either; I could've returned it, but I kind of like the weird thing.  About the size of a nickel, but 3-4 times as thick, it features a late-style portrait and titles (FELIX) of Julia Domna and a little boy version of Geta.  It corresponds to nothing ancient in size, design, fabric, etc.  

It is very thick:

That's very interesting and mysterious, @Marsyas Mike. I have something similar to yours:

1. A base-metal coin of denarius size, issued after the quadrans and semis denominations had disappeared and lacking the expected S C on the reverse in any case.
2. An impossible hybrid, combining obverse and reverses of genuine coins but issued years apart from each other.
3. An extremely thick flan.

Faustina II, AD 147-175.
Unofficial orichalcum "denarius," 4.52 g, 16.2 mm, 11 h.
Unknown mint, AD 156-162 or somewhat later.
Obv: FAVSTINA AVGVSTA, bare-headed and draped bust, right (Beckmann type 5 hairstyle).
Rev: PAX AVG, Pax standing left, holding branch in extended right hand and cornucopia in left hand (reverse of Antoninus Pius, RIC 78b).
Refs: Unlisted.

Oblique view of the coin in question. Note the flan crack extends only superficially into the thickness of the flan, which is easily twice the thickness of a genuine silver denarius. However, there is no evidence of a casting seam around the edge of the coin.

What was the purpose behind your Domna/Geta and my Faustina/Antoninus Pius thick base metal hybrids? Unless they were originally plated with silver, I can't imagine how these would this fool anyone into thinking they were denarii. Surely nobody would try to fake a semis. Therefore, I don't think they are counterfeits made for the purposes of enriching the forger.

I think the best explanation is that they are so-called "limes denarii," coins "minted either officially or pseudo-officially on the fringes of the empire out of necessity." We know that these bronze denarii are more or less faithful copies of silver prototypes, but some are known to hybridize obverse and reverse dies used on separate official exemplars. Moreover, we know that they were both struck and cast; numerous molds and forgers' dies used in their production have been discovered at archaeologic sites.

While not Paduans, they are interesting artifacts in numismatic history.

[ominus1]

32 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

While not Paduans, they are interesting artifacts in numismatic history.

i was thinking its lQQks official, like yours and thick too..with wear....:)

[Marsyas Mike]

13 hours ago, Roman Collector said:

That's very interesting and mysterious, @Marsyas Mike. I have something similar to yours:

1. A base-metal coin of denarius size, issued after the quadrans and semis denominations had disappeared and lacking the expected S C on the reverse in any case.
2. An impossible hybrid, combining obverse and reverses of genuine coins but issued years apart from each other.
3. An extremely thick flan.

Faustina II, AD 147-175.
Unofficial orichalcum "denarius," 4.52 g, 16.2 mm, 11 h.
Unknown mint, AD 156-162 or somewhat later.
Obv: FAVSTINA AVGVSTA, bare-headed and draped bust, right (Beckmann type 5 hairstyle).
Rev: PAX AVG, Pax standing left, holding branch in extended right hand and cornucopia in left hand (reverse of Antoninus Pius, RIC 78b).
Refs: Unlisted.

Oblique view of the coin in question. Note the flan crack extends only superficially into the thickness of the flan, which is easily twice the thickness of a genuine silver denarius. However, there is no evidence of a casting seam around the edge of the coin.

What was the purpose behind your Domna/Geta and my Faustina/Antoninus Pius thick base metal hybrids? Unless they were originally plated with silver, I can't imagine how these would this fool anyone into thinking they were denarii. Surely nobody would try to fake a semis. Therefore, I don't think they are counterfeits made for the purposes of enriching the forger.

I think the best explanation is that they are so-called "limes denarii," coins "minted either officially or pseudo-officially on the fringes of the empire out of necessity." We know that these bronze denarii are more or less faithful copies of silver prototypes, but some are known to hybridize obverse and reverse dies used on separate official exemplars. Moreover, we know that they were both struck and cast; numerous molds and forgers' dies used in their production have been discovered at archaeologic sites.

While not Paduans, they are interesting artifacts in numismatic history.

Very compelling, RC.  Your Faustina hybrid does indeed resemble my Severan "denarius."  Like you said, I'm not sure how anybody could think these were denarii, unless they circulated out in the limes hinterlands as some kind of token.  But they don't seem like your run-of-the-mill Bulgarian modern fake either.  

Your post inspired me to try a little harder on my attribution and photography on my weird Julia Domna-Geta whatsit.  My original post described it "nickel" sized; it is actually pretty close to a denarius diameter (18 mm).  But it is very thick and heavy (8.31 grams, which is quite a bit heavier than yours):

Julia Domna and Geta   Æ 18 (c. 211-217 A.D.?) JVLIA PIA FELIX AVG, draped bust right (with mature, helmet-type hair style / P SEPT GETA CAES PONT, draped child's bust right (8.31 grams / 18 x 17 x 3 mm) AZ Feb. 2017

Note:  Imperial design andlegends, but corresponds to no Imperial denomination. Julia Domna bust and legends from c. 211-217 A.D. during reign of Caracalla; Geta's portrait and legends are much earlier types, c. 200-202 A.D. Possible limes or Paduan?  See Roman Collector on NF April 2023

 

 

[Edessa]

I had posted this awhile back. Somewhat similar.

Julia Domna, AD 193-217, wife of Septimius Severus. Limes AE Denarius (18mm, 5.48g, 6h). Obv: IVLIA AVGVSTA; Draped bust right. Rev: SECVRIT IMP ...; Securitas seated right, holding sceptre before, altar. Eagle countermark lower right obscuring part of reverse legend. Ref: Obverse Cf. common Julia Domna denarius. Reverse Cf. Rome mint, AD 207, RIC 168 (Caracalla); Cf. RSC 570 (same). This reverse type not struck for Julia Domna. Fine, heavy example, cast flan with obvious seam but of reasonably good style.

[arizonarobin]

Congratulations @Roman Collector, even though it is fantasy it is a really nice piece. I had it in my watch list. 😁

Edited May 2, 2023 by arizonarobin