Posts that don't deserve their own thread, Thread.

[Jay GT4]

They said the dealer picks "world" as the category but then picks the subcategory as "ancient" which causes it to show up in the Ancient category

Edited April 27, 2023 by Jay GT4

[CPK]

7 minutes ago, Jay GT4 said:

They said the dealer picks "world" as the category but then picks the subcategory as "ancient" which causes it to show up in the Ancient category

Why would there be a sub-category called "ancient" under "world"? I don't know the technical terms, but to me it seems that Ancient and World should be their own separate categories on the same level. If there's a subcategory with the same name as a primary category, no wonder there is confusion. That sounds like something the website ought to adjust.

[Furryfrog02]

8 hours ago, CPK said:

Why would there be a sub-category called "ancient" under "world"? I don't know the technical terms, but to me it seems that Ancient and World should be their own separate categories on the same level. If there's a subcategory with the same name as a primary category, no wonder there is confusion. That sounds like something the website ought to adjust.

I think this has to do with what people consider "ancient" or something. I see Byzantine and other "later" ancients listed in world category some times. It's odd (to me) but what do I know?

[DonnaML]

14 hours ago, Jay GT4 said:

They said the dealer picks "world" as the category but then picks the subcategory as "ancient" which causes it to show up in the Ancient category

But there's no way that a dealer should be permitted to classify these things as "ancient"; I don't care if it's as a category or as a sub-category:

And that's even giving them the benefit of the doubt that they belong on VCoins in the first place, under an extremely broad interpretation of what "exonumia" means. They're certainly not "medals" or "tokens"; I think political buttons would be OK, but clothing buttons? 

Edited April 27, 2023 by DonnaML

[Steppenfool]

Rather than start a thread on this spicy issue, I'm wondering if any of you have opinions on over-rated coins. There's the classics like the Tiberius Tribute Penny (due to their being know way of knowing if the story in the Bible is a historical fact, or if it was, if this was the coin used), but I'm wondering if you have any other examples that may prove less popular?

For me it's the Antoninus and Aurelius double head coins. I am a huge fan of the formulaic Portait + Reverse Design motif that Imperial Roman coinage utilised from Augustus onward. I think the two heads is unfortunate when a cool reverse design could have been employed to represent the adoption of Marcus and his promotion to Caesar. None of the heads are particularly unique either, as ordinary coins of Marcus as Caesar were also produced.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Steppenfool

[Steppenfool]

Another random thing others have probably noticed. N&N London doesn't sort their coins by date, making perusing their auctions quite painful.

[DonnaML]

7 hours ago, Steppenfool said:

Another random thing others have probably noticed. N&N London doesn't sort their coins by date, making perusing their auctions quite painful.

I have yet to figure out how cgb.fr organizes its auctions. It seems completely incomprehensible, and there's no option I can find to sort by the usual Greek and various kinds of Roman categories. Instead, you can sort by things like the type of metal.

Edited April 28, 2023 by DonnaML

[Jay GT4]

5 hours ago, DonnaML said:

But there's no way that a dealer should be permitted to classify these things as "ancient"; I don't care if it's as a category or as a sub-category:

And that's even giving them the benefit of the doubt that they belong on VCoins in the first place, under an extremely broad interpretation of what "exonumia" means. They're certainly not "medals" or "tokens"; I think political buttons would be OK, but clothing buttons? 

I'm just the messenger!  😶

[JayAg47]

5 hours ago, Steppenfool said:

Rather than start a thread on this spicy issue, I'm wondering if any of you have opinions on over-rated coins. There's the classics like the Tiberius Tribute Penny (due to their being know way of knowing if the story in the Bible is a historical fact, or if it was, if this was the coin used), but I'm wondering if you have any other examples that may prove less popular?

For me it's the Antoninus and Aurelius double head coins. I am a huge fan of the formulaic Portait + Reverse Design motif that Imperial Roman coinage utilised from Augustus onward. I think the two heads is unfortunate when a cool reverse design could have been employed to represent the adoption of Marcus and his promotion to Caesar. None of the heads are particularly unique either, as ordinary coins of Marcus as Caesar were also produced.

Not to offend anyone, but anything Biblical like Shekel of Tyre, Tribute penny shoots up the price! I don't follow Abrahamic religion so I'm not as attached to these coins, and it's interesting to see how Judea capta coins sell like hotcakes, doesn't matter if they're a worn bronze with barely visible details, and you have the Vespasian denarius with palm tree and Judea, I believe it's as common as the Armenia capta denarius issued by Lucius Verus or any other denarius of Vespasian, but the prices are nowhere comparable. Lol even some dealers sell Widow's mite to unsuspecting customers at premium prices. 

The other coins I believe overrated are anything with Pegasus, now show me a coin with unicorn i'll buy that in an instant (considering my budget), and Athenian tetradrachms especially Starr Group V, I think it's just yet another variation with a slightly tilted owl. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by JayAg47

[Steppenfool]

1 hour ago, JayAg47 said:

Not to offend anyone, but anything Biblical like Shekel of Tyre, Tribute penny shoots up the price! I don't follow Abrahamic religion so I'm not as attached to these coins, and it's interesting to see how Judea capta coins sell like hotcakes, doesn't matter if they're a worn bronze with barely visible details, and you have the Vespasian denarius with palm tree and Judea, I believe it's as common as the Armenia capta denarius issued by Lucius Verus or any other denarius of Vespasian, but the prices are nowhere comparable. Lol even some dealers sell Widow's mite to unsuspecting customers at premium prices. 

The other coins I believe overrated are anything with Pegasus, now show me a coin with unicorn i'll buy that in an instant (considering my budget), and Athenian tetradrachms especially Starr Group V, I think it's just yet another variation with a slightly tilted owl. 

 

I did pay a premium (£140) for a beat up (Fine) IVDAEA denarius. However I think that the Fall of Jerusalem was such a significant historical/theological/cultural event that it was worth it. I've heard that coin described as over-rated before and I politely disagree now as much as I did then!

[David Atherton]

2 hours ago, Steppenfool said:

 

I did pay a premium (£140) for a beat up (Fine) IVDAEA denarius. However I think that the Fall of Jerusalem was such a significant historical/theological/cultural event that it was worth it. I've heard that coin described as over-rated before and I politely disagree now as much as I did then!

The common IVDAEA CAPTA denarii (RIC 2) are not overrated historically, but certainly are overpriced. They are one of the most common denarius types struck for Vespasian and have survived antiquity in great numbers.

I paid $305 for this one nearly 20 years ago.

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 3.35g
Rome Mint, 69-70 AD
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA in exergue; Judaea std. r., head resting on hand, to r. of trophy
RIC 2 (C2). BMC 35. RSC 226. BNC 23. Hendin 1479.
Acquired from Glenn W. Woods, October 2003.

Now, going for some of the rare variants of the type is well worth it!

 

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 2.71g
Rome Mint, 69-70 AD
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA in exergue; Judaea std. r., hands bound behind back, to r. of palm tree
RIC 4 (R). BMC 43. RSC 229. BNC -. Hendin 1480.
Acquired from Zuzim Judaea, May 2012.

 

 

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 2.98g
Lyon Mint, 71 AD
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG TR P; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA; Palm tree; to r., Judaea std. r., hands bound behind
RIC 1118 (R2). BMC Spec. acquired 1980. RSC 231. BNC 298. Hendin 1487.
Acquired from eBay, April 2021.

 

 

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 3.10g
Lyon mint, 71 AD
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG TR P; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA DEVICTA; Palm tree; to l., Judaea stg. l., hands bound in front
RIC 1120 (R). BMC 388. RSC 243. BNC 297. Hendin 1488.
Acquired from eBay, March 2012.

 

 

Vespasian Fourrée*
Fourrée Denarius, 2.75g
Unknown mint, After 71 AD
Obv: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG TR P; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: IVDAEA DEVICTA; Palm tree; to l., Judaea stg. l., hands bound in front
RIC 1120 (R). BMC 388. RSC 243. BNC 423. Hendin 1488.
Acquired from NumisCorner, June 2021.

*Oddly, about half of all surviving DEVICTA denarii are plated.

 

 

Vespasian
AR Denarius, 3.14g
Antioch Mint, 72-73 AD
Obv: IMP CAES VESP AVG P M COS IIII; Head of Vespasian, laureate, r.
Rev: Palm tree; to l., Vespasian stg. r. with spear and parazonium, foot on helmet; to r., Judaea std. r.
RIC 1558 (C). BMC 510. RSC 645. RPC 1930 (11 spec.). BNC 318. Hendin 1490 corr. (obv. legend).
Acquired from Jencek Historical Enterprise, July 2005.

 

 

Titus as Caesar [Vespasian]
AR Denarius, 3.13g
Rome Mint, 72-73 AD
Obv: T CAES IMP VESP PON TR POT; Head of Titus, bearded, laureate, r.
Rev: Palm tree; to l., Titus stg. r. with spear and parazonium, foot on helmet; to r., Judaea std. r.
RIC 369 (R2). BMC 85. RSC 392var. BNC -. Hendin 1482.
EX CNG E42, 12 November 2001, lot 64980.

 

 

Titus as Caesar [Vespasian]
AR Denarius, 3.26g
Antioch Mint, 72-73 AD
Obv: T CAES IMP VESP PON TR POT; Bust of Titus, laureate, draped, bearded, r.
Rev: Palm tree: to l., Titus stg. r. with spear and parazonium, foot on helmet; to r., Judaea std. r.
RIC 1562 (C). BMC 518. RSC 392. RPC 1934 (11 spec.). BNC 322. Hendin 1492.
Acquired from WCNC, March 2008.

Edited April 28, 2023 by David Atherton

[KenDorney]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:21 PM, Jay GT4 said:

They said the dealer picks "world" as the category but then picks the subcategory as "ancient" which causes it to show up in the Ancient category

It doesn’t work that way actually. We pick the parent category and you can’t work backwards, so if you pick World you can’t pick ancient as a sub-category. If they are listing modern or medieval and it shows in the ancient category they are specifically doing this on purpose. 

[CPK]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:42 PM, Steppenfool said:

Rather than start a thread on this spicy issue, I'm wondering if any of you have opinions on over-rated coins. There's the classics like the Tiberius Tribute Penny (due to their being know way of knowing if the story in the Bible is a historical fact, or if it was, if this was the coin used), but I'm wondering if you have any other examples that may prove less popular?

For me it's the Antoninus and Aurelius double head coins. I am a huge fan of the formulaic Portait + Reverse Design motif that Imperial Roman coinage utilised from Augustus onward. I think the two heads is unfortunate when a cool reverse design could have been employed to represent the adoption of Marcus and his promotion to Caesar. None of the heads are particularly unique either, as ordinary coins of Marcus as Caesar were also produced.

 

For me, it's the Shekel of Tyre. I'm not saying it's over-rated historically, as the most likely candidate coin for the money paid to Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus, but for as expensive as they are, I would have wished the design to stand out a bit more. There's nothing in the coin's design that has any bearing or relevance to the main reason people want to buy them; the coin in itself doesn't contribute to the story.

I wouldn't mind having one myself, but no way am I interested in paying $500 for a crumby one, or $1,000 for a passable one.

Edited April 29, 2023 by CPK

[Jay GT4]

1 hour ago, KenDorney said:

It doesn’t work that way actually. We pick the parent category and you can’t work backwards, so if you pick World you can’t pick ancient as a sub-category. If they are listing modern or medieval and it shows in the ancient category they are specifically doing this on purpose. 

That's what she told me, but now that you say that, it really annoys me what Prados is doing!

BTW looking forward to getting the Vespasian Paduan!  

[Deinomenid]

Here's one that doesn't deserve its own thread.  I wish auction houses would skip auction 30 if they insist on  using Roman numerals. I've been trying to  find some  background on a strange  Rindge coin  I  have that was sold at Malter XXX. 

I can't tell you the stuff I have to wade through that's - let's say - not coin-related. As I  live near a town  called Malta it's even worse.

 

[Steppenfool]

1 hour ago, Deinomenid said:

Here's one that doesn't deserve its own thread.  I wish auction houses would skip auction 30 if they insist on  using Roman numerals. I've been trying to  find some  background on a strange  Rindge coin  I  have that was sold at Malter XXX. 

I can't tell you the stuff I have to wade through that's - let's say - not coin-related. As I  live near a town  called Malta it's even worse.

 

Maybe you already know this but if you put your search into an engine in quotation marks i.e."Malter XXX" it'll search for the combined terms rather than each one individually. I think it's also less likely to "correct" you and change your entries this way as well.

[Deinomenid]

Thank you @Steppenfool- I did try  that after the initial surprise. It then mostly  hyper-focused on my apparent immediate Malta neighbors'  interests -  few of which seemed to  involve the coinage  of Metapontum.

 

[Steppenfool]

Rather than shamelessly self promote in a separate thread. I'll do it here. I've started a Youtube channel that aims to engage in more in depth analysis of specific historical topics. I try not to let unevidenced narratives take over and instead attempt to present the primary sources directly to the viewer, justify anything I say, and try to guide the viewer to somewhat make up their own mind. This video is on the evidence before 312 for Constantius I's personal religion and therefore contains discussion of Numismatics. In a few days, I will be finished  the sequel that explores the Christian revision of Constantius' reign.

I'm still working on the ins and outs of video production etc. and I hope to improve as I go!

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Steppenfool

[DLTcoins]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:59 PM, CPK said:

 

For me, it's the Shekel of Tyre. I'm not saying it's over-rated historically, as the most likely candidate coin for the money paid to Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus, but for as expensive as they are, I would have wished the design to stand out a bit more. There's nothing in the coin's design that has any bearing or relevance to the main reason people want to buy them; the coin in itself doesn't contribute to the story.

I wouldn't mind having one myself, but no way am I interested in paying $500 for a crumby one, or $1,000 for a passable one.

Let's not forget their appeal as Judaica, which is probably even greater. After all, the reason that the Tyrian coins are the logical candidate for Judas' "pieces of silver" is that, because of their purity, they were the only coins deemed acceptable for payment of the Jewish Temple tax. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_tax

 

[Sulla80]

Judaea: The Jewish War, 66-70, AE prutah (2.25g), year 2 (April 67-May 68), Hen-1360

Obv: “שנת שתים” (ŠNT ŠTYM or “year 2” and refers to the second year of independence from Roman rule) amphora

Rev: “חרת ציון” (HRWT ZYWN or “Freedom of Zion”) vine leaf, Hebrew legends both side

Edited May 1, 2023 by Sulla80

[CPK]

23 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

Let's not forget their appeal as Judaica, which is probably even greater. After all, the reason that the Tyrian coins are the logical candidate for Judas' "pieces of silver" is that, because of their purity, they were the only coins deemed acceptable for payment of the Jewish Temple tax. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_tax

 

Yes, but still, there's nothing in the coin itself that might help tell that story. I mean, with a Julius Caesar lifetime denarius, you can see the history right there on the coin - his portrait, his titles, the reverse designs, etc. Looking at a Tyrian Shekel may tell you something about Tyrian/Phoenician history and mythology, but it tells you nothing about its history as a Jewish Temple tax coin, or Judas's "30 pieces of silver".

[Curtisimo]

I think all the coins mentioned so far as potentially over-rated have a lot going for them (Widows mite, Judea Capta, Shekel, Tribute Penny). Even if the prices are out of whack there is often a cool historical tie in and the designs are interesting, at least to me. None I would consider as over-rated.

The only type of coins I can’t really get myself excited about personally are pre-coinage proto money used by weight. Here I am talking about the AES Rude, hacksilver,  and even some of the un-struck electrum of Asia Minor. I like the artistry of coinage. At the same time I can still see why some folks are interested in them and I enjoy reading about them on the forum, but for my own collection I will always find something higher priority. 
 

………………………….

 

As to some of the discussion about price increases on traditionally lower priced coins I would encourage you not to give up and not to get too focused on one type of coin. Back in 2021 at the height of coin-flation I set myself a goal of collecting ten coins in tiered categories from under $10, $20, $30… all the way to under $100.

The below was the outcome. Included in there are Homer, Hadrian’s Travel Series, Bull-dong hats, old provenance, nice toning, mythology, architecture and historical events in the holy land. I was happy with the results. Good coins and good prices are still out there.

It’s not easy to distinguish the $10 from the $60 and so on…

[DLTcoins]

4 hours ago, CPK said:

Yes, but still, there's nothing in the coin itself that might help tell that story. I mean, with a Julius Caesar lifetime denarius, you can see the history right there on the coin - his portrait, his titles, the reverse designs, etc. Looking at a Tyrian Shekel may tell you something about Tyrian/Phoenician history and mythology, but it tells you nothing about its history as a Jewish Temple tax coin, or Judas's "30 pieces of silver".

There's always the irony that the only coin acceptable to the Temple in this later period bore the graven image of Melqart-Ba'al, whose worship by the wicked king Ahab (9th century BCE) and his Tyrian wife Jezebel had once brought the wrath of God upon Israel.

Edited May 1, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Sulla80]

22 hours ago, Curtisimo said:

Good coins and good prices are still out there.

I easily agree with you on this.  Every time I think there is some abnormal "condition mania" - I return to this passage from AD 1906 and see that some things are not changed :

"The taste for fine art, and for perfect condition in coins has been gradually increasing, and prevails to such an extent that it has become the principal, and I might say almost the sole attraction to collectors, who have put in the second place the scientific interest, and rejected on account of their imperfect condition specimens which were lacking in their collections. We have seen in the recent sale rooms coins of extreme rarity allowed to be sold for relatively low prices on account of their deficient preservation, whilst common coins artistic in finish, and in good preservation were competed for at hitherto unheard-of prices"

-Francesco Gnecchi, Roman Coins: Elementary Manual, p. 6, 1906

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sulla80

[Roman Collector]

1 hour ago, Sulla80 said:

I easily agree with you on this.  Every time I think there is some abnormal "condition mania" - I return to this passage from AD 1906 and see that some things are not changed :

"The taste for fine art, and for perfect condition in coins has been gradually increasing, and prevails to such an extent that it has become the principal, and I might say almost the sole attraction to collectors, who have put in the second place the scientific interest, and rejected on account of their imperfect condition specimens which were lacking in their collections. We have seen in the recent sale rooms coins of extreme rarity allowed to be sold for relatively low prices on account of their deficient preservation, whilst common coins artistic in finish, and in good preservation were competed for at hitherto unheard-of prices"

-Francesco Gnecchi, Roman Coins: Elementary Manual, p. 6, 1906