Examples of fake coins of the Roman Empire.

[ambr0zie]

7 hours ago, Filat said:

дабы не накалять страсти, воздержусь от ответа на Ваш ворос, ambr0zie. → I will refrain from answering your question, ambr0zie, so as not to inflame passions.

Thanks for your answer, but I think no collector will be inflamed when noticing a coin they bought is a fake. Not towards a person who highlights this anyway.

I have my doubts in regards to some coins I recently acquired and I would like, please, your opinion. On all I see bad clues (and I hope I'm wrong). 2 were bought last month and I managed to take my own pictures 

Constantine I the Great AD 306-337. Treveri
19 mm, 2,12 g
BI argenteus, AD 310-313. IMP CONSTANTI-NVS AVG, cuirassed bust of Constantine left, wearing helmet with high crest, spear in right hand over shoulder, mappa in left / VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP, two Victories standing facing each other, holding shield inscribed VOT PR on altar; PTR in exergue. RIC VI -- (cf. RIC VII 208a); RSC 643. 

(my attribution). I don't like the grainy surfaces. 

T. Carisius (ca. 46 BC). AR denarius. Rome. 20 mm 3.33 g. MONETA, head of Juno Moneta right, wearing pendant earring and necklace; dotted border / T•CARISIVS, wreathed cap of Vulcan (or garlanded punch die) over anvil (or anvil die), between tongs (on left) and hammer (on right); all within wreath. Crawford 464/2. Sydenham 982b. Carisia 1b.

(my attribution) - the wear pattern and the tiny holes in the coin are also bad signs in my opinion. 

 

Here are 3 I was not able to photograph yet, as they arrived a few days ago

Caligula AD 37-41. AE sestertius. Rome, AD 37-38. C CAESAR•AVG•GERMANICVS•PON•M•TR•POT, laureate head of Caligula left / AGRIPPINA / DRVSILLA / IVLIA, three sisters of emperor standing facing, Agrippina as Securitas with head right, cornucopia in right hand and resting on column, Drusilla as Concordia, head left, patera in right hand, cornucopia in left, and Julia as Fortuna, head left, rudder in right hand, cornucopia in left; S•C in exergue. RIC I 33

The first thing I don't like about it are the grainy surfaces and the overall uneven wear 

Column sestertius, RIC 580. 

In hand the patina is even more visible glued to the coin. I know this is most likely a bad sign.

CILICIA. Mopsus. Septimius Severus with Caracalla and Geta (193-211). Ae. Dated CY 274 (206/7)
Obv: AV K Λ CЄΠT CЄOVHPOC ΠЄPT.
Laureate head of Septimius Severus right.
Rev: AΔPIANΩN MOΨЄATΩN / ЄTOVC ΔOC.
Caracalla and Geta standing facing one another, clasping hands; star above.
SNG BN 1986; Hirsch 256, lot 549 = Peus 388, lot 1118; Asia Minor Coins online #5379.

I don't have an explanation, but this coin looks off to me - modern dies or something similar. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by ambr0zie

[Filat]

21 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Thanks for your answer, but I think no collector will be inflamed when noticing a coin they bought is a fake. Not towards a person who highlights this anyway.

I have my doubts in regards to some coins I recently acquired and I would like, please, your opinion. On all I see bad clues (and I hope I'm wrong). 2 were bought last month and I managed to take my own pictures 

Constantine I the Great AD 306-337. Treveri
19 mm, 2,12 g
BI argenteus, AD 310-313. IMP CONSTANTI-NVS AVG, cuirassed bust of Constantine left, wearing helmet with high crest, spear in right hand over shoulder, mappa in left / VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP, two Victories standing facing each other, holding shield inscribed VOT PR on altar; PTR in exergue. RIC VI -- (cf. RIC VII 208a); RSC 643. 

(my attribution). I don't like the grainy surfaces. 

T. Carisius (ca. 46 BC). AR denarius. Rome. 20 mm 3.33 g. MONETA, head of Juno Moneta right, wearing pendant earring and necklace; dotted border / T•CARISIVS, wreathed cap of Vulcan (or garlanded punch die) over anvil (or anvil die), between tongs (on left) and hammer (on right); all within wreath. Crawford 464/2. Sydenham 982b. Carisia 1b.

(my attribution) - the wear pattern and the tiny holes in the coin are also bad signs in my opinion. 

 

Here are 3 I was not able to photograph yet, as they arrived a few days ago

Caligula AD 37-41. AE sestertius. Rome, AD 37-38. C CAESAR•AVG•GERMANICVS•PON•M•TR•POT, laureate head of Caligula left / AGRIPPINA / DRVSILLA / IVLIA, three sisters of emperor standing facing, Agrippina as Securitas with head right, cornucopia in right hand and resting on column, Drusilla as Concordia, head left, patera in right hand, cornucopia in left, and Julia as Fortuna, head left, rudder in right hand, cornucopia in left; S•C in exergue. RIC I 33

The first thing I don't like about it are the grainy surfaces and the overall uneven wear 

Column sestertius, RIC 580. 

In hand the patina is even more visible glued to the coin. I know this is most likely a bad sign.

CILICIA. Mopsus. Septimius Severus with Caracalla and Geta (193-211). Ae. Dated CY 274 (206/7)
Obv: AV K Λ CЄΠT CЄOVHPOC ΠЄPT.
Laureate head of Septimius Severus right.
Rev: AΔPIANΩN MOΨЄATΩN / ЄTOVC ΔOC.
Caracalla and Geta standing facing one another, clasping hands; star above.
SNG BN 1986; Hirsch 256, lot 549 = Peus 388, lot 1118; Asia Minor Coins online #5379.

I don't have an explanation, but this coin looks off to me - modern dies or something similar. 

прошу меня извинить, но я уже сообщал, что не рассматриваю и не комментирую картинки монет вне перечня тех, что предложены к обсуждению мной в этой теме. → I beg your pardon, but I already said that I do not consider or comment on pictures of coins outside the list of those that I proposed for discussion in this thread.
 

[ambr0zie]

Ah OK, this means I remain with my doubts. 

[seth77]

@ambr0zie your pseudo-argenteus is probably ok. I have seen many in this exact condition, in fact this might be the commonest condition of these 3 issues of pseudo-argenteii for Constantine, Licinius and Maximinus II. I have read somewhere that it is due to the alloy used with just around 20% silver.

[Heliodromus]

Agreed - I don't see anything suspicious with that pseudo-arg. I seem to recall reading that the 20% silver content was just enough for them to have a natural silverish color without any surface treatment, so this type of look on a worn coin is not unnatural.

[Filat]

ауреус Траяна Деция. → Trajan Decius aureus.

что мы видим в зеленых прямоугольниках (см. картинку ниже). → what we see in the green rectangles (see picture below).
 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Filat

[Orange Julius]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:44 AM, Heliodromus said:

On a less exciting level, here's some definite LRB fakes in the latest Bertolami auction:

https://www.sixbid.com/en/bertolami-fine-arts/10406/roman-imperial/8986541/constans-337-350-ae-18mm-3-05g?term&orderCol=lot_number&orderDirection=asc&priceFrom&displayMode=large&auctionSessions=12012|478441&sidebarIsSticky=false

https://www.sixbid.com/en/bertolami-fine-arts/10406/roman-imperial/8986542/constans-337-350-ae-18mm-3-23g?term&orderCol=lot_number&orderDirection=asc&priceFrom&displayMode=large&auctionSessions=12012|478441&sidebarIsSticky=false

https://www.sixbid.com/en/bertolami-fine-arts/10406/roman-imperial/8986544/constans-337-350-ae-18mm-3-12g?term&orderCol=lot_number&orderDirection=asc&priceFrom&displayMode=large&auctionSessions=12012|478441&sidebarIsSticky=false

 

I have one of the fake phoenix types! Luckily mine was less than $5. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Orange Julius

[ambr0zie]

Although I would apply medieval tortures to forgers, no matter if the value of the genuine coin is 0.1 euros or 100.000 euros I fail to understand why would somebody produce fakes for this type of coins (common LRBs)

I remember a discussion about 1 year ago when an auction was full of forgeries - 3rd century antoninianii already "worn"

Beats me. The only explanation I can think of is that the "engravers" are training for something more "interesting". 

[Heliodromus]

11 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Although I would apply medieval tortures to forgers, no matter if the value of the genuine coin is 0.1 euros or 100.000 euros I fail to understand why would somebody produce fakes for this type of coins (common LRBs)

I think it's because these are produced in eastern europe where monthly wages can be shockingly low (at least by US standards), and despite the poor quality they manage to sell in quite high quantity. I can't find the exact number, but I remember someone posting about having followed sales of just one fake seller on eBay who was selling hundreds of coins over a few month span. The cost to manufacture must be next to nothing, so it's basically all profit.

eBay UK has become an absolute joke in terms of percentage fakes, with apparently nothing done about it. The volume is certainly there!

I guess there are forgeries at all levels of the hobby, from these mass produced near-junk LRBs to people trying to pass coins in the 10K and up range. I guess it's a bit like cars - you've got your Bugattis, and your Yugos. These are the Yugos!

[Steppenfool]

13 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

Although I would apply medieval tortures to forgers, no matter if the value of the genuine coin is 0.1 euros or 100.000 euros I fail to understand why would somebody produce fakes for this type of coins (common LRBs)

I remember a discussion about 1 year ago when an auction was full of forgeries - 3rd century antoninianii already "worn"

Beats me. The only explanation I can think of is that the "engravers" are training for something more "interesting". 

To be fair, the only time I have ever been fooled (to my knowledge) was an LRB of Constantine with Head of Sol reverse. Coin was in bad condition and there was nothing about it on the usual fake resources. The inductive inference using the above premises was obviously faulty, but I'd never encountered it failing me so far. It was only when I saw an exact copy come up for sale the next day that I realised my mistake and requested a refund. That would have been £15 profit for a forger!

Of course, it was immediately relisted despite communicating my concerns and showing the identical specimen.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Steppenfool

[Prieure de Sion]

On 2/7/2023 at 10:12 PM, ambr0zie said:

Caligula AD 37-41. AE sestertius. Rome, AD 37-38. C CAESAR•AVG•GERMANICVS•PON•M•TR•POT, laureate head of Caligula left / AGRIPPINA / DRVSILLA / IVLIA, three sisters of emperor standing facing, Agrippina as Securitas with head right, cornucopia in right hand and resting on column, Drusilla as Concordia, head left, patera in right hand, cornucopia in left, and Julia as Fortuna, head left, rudder in right hand, cornucopia in left; S•C in exergue. RIC I 33

 

A "friend" - absolute expert with fakes - from the German forum tell me, that was a embossed forgery of modern stamps from "Petar Petrov".

https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/178464431/romischer-a-sestertius-von-caligvla?ref=yr_purchases

https://www.numismatikforum.de/download/file.php?id=181757&mode=view 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Prieure de Sion]

I took the liberty of contacting a user from the German forum. He is an absolute expert on forgeries - and, if I'm not mistaken, has one of the largest collections of forgeries in the world. He is very active in the German forum and on Numiswiki to recognize forgeries - and a real expert. He looked at the two threads and sent me a comment. With his permission, I have quoted his response below.

My opinion would be yes. I don't like it when someone with pseudo knowledge here marks coins from sellers as fakes - without real expert background knowledge. After all, a claim is made here a seller sells fakes en masse and NGC is "too stupid" to recognize fakes en masse.

My suggestion to the moderator. Close this thread with the final quote of a real expert - and the user "Filat" should refrain from making claims in the future if he does not have the real knowledge.

My 2 cents.

 

Here the answer from an real expert:

Quote

The antique pieces he posted are genuine.

Some of the alleged problems, are really just stamp rust, stamp damage and stamp wear (abrasion). Or corrosion and surface damage from horn silver (pantikapaion).
Athens tetradrachm has any incrustations and is genuine.

If it is stamp problems, it is easy to prove by a stamp study, if such details are found identically on several stamp like pieces, then the details were in the stamps and sometimes you can even see the progression e.g. with stamp defects or stamp wear (become stronger the longer or more often the stamp is used). The more you use the stamp the greater the wear, stamp breaks become more severe and stamp damage becomes more severe.
Look for stamp like pieces and look for the circled details, if they are also found on stamp like pieces, then these details were so in the stamps.

Casting beads and casting holes from gas bladders are as individual as a fingerprint, even if you make billions of castings from the same mold, it is extremely unlikely to find two castings with multiple identical casting beads and/or casting holes. And the more casting beads or holes there are the less likely it is to find a second casting with the same beads and holes. 

Unfortunately, the dies of a magnesia stater had die rust, the rust varies in severity on the pieces (so increasing die rust in later die states). 
Since the "beads" are found on several or many pieces it is clear that this must be from the stamps and is stamp rust. 

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=Magnesia+stater&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=usd&order=0

Can look for stamp like real pieces (museum collection, excavations) at the Aurei with identical features he circled, then it is proven that it was in the stamps. 

Only he will probably ignore arguments, I think that is a troll so ignore.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[Ricardo123]

Maybe Filat is member of de CDFL ? Did not heard from them for long time !

[Filat]

повторяю для всех псевдоэкспертов → "Ржавые штампы" - это сказка для детей дошкольного возраста. → I repeat for all the pseudo-experts → "Die rust" is a fairy tale for preschool children. 
 

[ominus1]

...i thin mr filat finally hit a nerve  ^^

[Kaleun96]

42 minutes ago, Filat said:

повторяю для всех псевдоэкспертов → "Ржавые штампы" - это сказка для детей дошкольного возраста. → I repeat for all the pseudo-experts → "Die rust" is a fairy tale for preschool children. 
 

I know you won't reply since you're a troll but does this mean every numismatist who talks about die rust is wrong? If so, I'd like to see your peer-reviewed published articles on the matter.

What's more likely: that every numismatist is wrong or that Filat is right? Hmm... that's a tough one!

[Roerbakmix]

People, why continue this thread? 

[DonnaML]

@Restitutor If you're not going to ban this obvious troll, can you at least close this thread? He will never provide any evidence for his assertions other than his own self-proclaimed expertise*. And his "contributions" are affecting the atmosphere here, cluttering the forum and making it a less pleasant place to spend time.

*Plus his intimate knowledge of disciplinary procedures at all the mints in the Roman Empire,  proving that die rust would never have been permitted, and, therefore, there's no such thing as die rust manifesting itself on a genuine ancient coin.

[ambr0zie]

Yeah, especially since many collectors here have provided opinions about my coins. I was expecting a clear answer from the expert in forgeries. 

[Restitutor]

7 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I took the liberty of contacting a user from the German forum. He is an absolute expert on forgeries - and, if I'm not mistaken, has one of the largest collections of forgeries in the world. He is very active in the German forum and on Numiswiki to recognize forgeries - and a real expert. He looked at the two threads and sent me a comment. With his permission, I have quoted his response below.

My opinion would be yes. I don't like it when someone with pseudo knowledge here marks coins from sellers as fakes - without real expert background knowledge. After all, a claim is made here a seller sells fakes en masse and NGC is "too stupid" to recognize fakes en masse.

My suggestion to the moderator. Close this thread with the final quote of a real expert - and the user "Filat" should refrain from making claims in the future if he does not have the real knowledge.

My 2 cents.

 

Here the answer from an real expert:

 

 

Thanks, Prieure, for this final “nail in the coffin” so to speak. I’ve been monitoring these threads and while technically they do not break any rules, the misinformation, now proven beyond a reasonable doubt, warrants them being locked.