Gold prices hit new record high

[Brennos]

I reinvested the proceeds from the sale of some bullion coins I bought a few years ago into antique gold.

MACEDONIAN KINGDOM. Alexander III the Great (336-323 BC). Amphipolis, AV distater 17.21 gm. 
O:/Head of Athena right, hair in four tight corkscrew curls, upswept at temple, and flowing over left shoulder, wearing necklace and triple-crested Corinthian helmet pushed back on head, long divergent crest ends, the bowl decorated with coiled serpent right 
R:/ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ, Nike standing facing, head left, wreath in outstretched right hand, stylis cradled on left arm; cantharus in left field. Price 167. Müller 192. ex Bourget sale June 1976 lot 16

Gold has been recycled through successive remelting since ancient times. I wonder what proportion of ancient Alexander gold is contained in a Vreneli or an American gold eagle?

Of course, feel free to share your gold or electrum coins to celebrate the occasion... although I'm not sure if it's a positive omen.

[John Conduitt]

Last year a Celtic gold quarter stater sold for £17,000. It weighs just 1.2g, so after fees, that's about £17,000 per gram. That got me thinking that ancient gold coins are one of the most expensive things you can buy by weight.

The most expensive ancient coin, a Panticapaeum stater (9g for $6m hammer), works out at about £650,000 per gram. That even beats the most expensive US coin, the 1933 Saint-Gaudens $20 Gold Double Eagle (33.4g for $18.8m hammer), which is about £550,000 per gram.

By comparison, saffron is a mere £10 per gram. Caviar £30. Gold £60. Heroin £100. Plutonium £3,000. Diamond £45,000 (although the 'Pink Star', which sold for £51.7m, is £4.38m per gram). According to Nasa, the most expensive thing you can buy is antimatter at £18bn per gram. Although I haven't seen any at auction in a while. Presumably, any antimatter auctions have been erased from the universe.

This is one of my more expensive coins by weight. More expensive than Plutonium but a bargain compared to antimatter.

Pale Gold Phase ‘Two Emperors’ Thrymsa, 645-675

Kent. Gold, 13mm, 1.19g. Diademed and draped bust right; pseudo legend around. Two small busts facing; above, Victory with wings enfolding the figures; pellet to each side of Victory’s head (SCBC 767).

Edited April 6 by John Conduitt

[panzerman]

That is a trophy coin, even one on reverse😇 

Here is my ex. from Renaissance Era

Papal States/ Bologna

AV Scudo d'oro ND

Bologna Mint

Pope Gregorio XIII 1572-85

Gregory XIII/ Catharina di Medici/ Charles IX ganged up on the French Protestants on Saint Bartholomews Day, a sort of "Purge Night" to get rid of the Hugoneuts.

[Marcosx]

This is one great aspect i always tell people about ancients endlesss fun and doesn't take up much space at all,, when I travel I can fit my entire inventory into a small carry on bag

 

[Marcosx]

Artifacts are another story 

[Ryro]

Stunning piece! No gold here, but here's an EL nymph that I used to date:

Edited April 7 by Ryro

[Brennos]

7 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Last year a Celtic gold quarter stater sold for £17,000. It weighs just 1.2g, so after fees, that's about £17,000 per gram. That got me thinking that ancient gold coins are one of the most expensive things you can buy by weight.

silver can be pretty costly too , almost £48,000 per gram including fees 😆

[John Conduitt]

3 hours ago, Brennos said:

silver can be pretty costly too , almost £48,000 per gram including fees 😆

£2000 you can lose in the carpet.

[Heliodromus]

11 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

the 'Pink Star', which sold for £51.7m, is £4.38m per gram

https://www.sothebys.com/en/videos/discover-the-williamson-pink-star-a-dazzling-fancy-vivid-pink-diamond

It is kinda pretty though.

I wonder what an antimatter ring would look like if one could be assembled? Probably not something you'd want to put on your finger though.

 

[Hrefn]

12 hours ago, Brennos said:

I reinvested the proceeds from the sale of some bullion coins I bought a few years ago into antique gold………Of course, feel free to share your gold or electrum coins to celebrate the occasion... although I'm not sure if it's a positive omen.

I did the same !!!

This is one of the Byzantine emperors I thought was unlikely to ever grace the Hrefn Collection.  But I brought some gold coins I had accumulated over the years, which I had purchased purely for the bullion value, to a regional coin show, and they defrayed the cost of this coin substantially.  Like you, @Brennos, I am somewhat concerned about the rise in gold prices, and consequently I am not sure this is a good time to be selling.  On the other hand, Theodosius III !!!!!

 2024.21. Solidus, Theodosius III, 715-717 AD.  Purchased 29 March 2024 from Nick Economopoulos by private treaty.

4.38 grams.  Probably lightly clipped but with an outstanding portrait and full name of this scarce ruler.  Officina delta.  Sear-1487.

Ex:  Bob Guynn collection, purchased from Ed Waddell, 9/29/2000 reportedly for $5500, with the old  Waddell tag (!!!!) with a $6000 retail price.   Sear, pub 1987, valued an EF example at 3000 GBP’s at that time.  I think a hoard of these may have been discovered since then which has caused their price to decrease.   

 

[Furryfrog02]

I sadly do not have any ancient gold. I did manage to buy a bit of gold before it went through the roof though. This is my oldest piece. Maybe in another 900 years it will be considered ancient 😛

Edited April 7 by Furryfrog02

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

This one was not that expensive and nothing like those high multiples of the bullion value...

Constantine X, 1059-1067 A.D.

AV gold nomisma, 4.42 grams

Christ enthroned, Constantine X holding labarum and globus cruciger

 

Edited April 7 by Ancient Coin Hunter

[Qcumbor]

Should gold go up and up in a near future, this one will soon have a bullion value above what I paid

LOUIS XVI Double louis d’or dit "aux écus accolés" 1786 Lyon
LUD. XVI. D. G. FR. - ET NAV. REX. Tête nue de Louis XVI à gauche, signé DUVIV. sur la tranche du cou. Sous le buste, abeille, différent du directeur Jean-Claude Gabet.
CHRS. REGN. VINC. IMPER (MG) 1786.  Deux écus accolés de France et de Navarre, sous une couronne ; D (Lyon)
28 mm - 15,36 gr - 6h
Ref : Ciani # 2182, Dy # 1706

Q

[AncientJoe]

16 hours ago, Brennos said:

I reinvested the proceeds from the sale of some bullion coins I bought a few years ago into antique gold.

MACEDONIAN KINGDOM. Alexander III the Great (336-323 BC). Amphipolis, AV distater 17.21 gm. 
O:/Head of Athena right, hair in four tight corkscrew curls, upswept at temple, and flowing over left shoulder, wearing necklace and triple-crested Corinthian helmet pushed back on head, long divergent crest ends, the bowl decorated with coiled serpent right 
R:/ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ, Nike standing facing, head left, wreath in outstretched right hand, stylis cradled on left arm; cantharus in left field. Price 167. Müller 192. ex Bourget sale June 1976 lot 16

Gold has been recycled through successive remelting since ancient times. I wonder what proportion of ancient Alexander gold is contained in a Vreneli or an American gold eagle?

Of course, feel free to share your gold or electrum coins to celebrate the occasion... although I'm not sure if it's a positive omen.

Congratulations on an excellent distater: both sides are particularly attractive! There's something truly magical about holding a distater: the relief makes it particularly dense and certainly far more interesting than a handful of bullion!

Here's my example, with a 1965 Hess/Leu pedigree:

And in classic Numisforums "show and tell" style, here are a few other of my favorite Greek gold:

From Kyrene, with an uncommon facing quadriga:

Pantikapaion, with the "uncontrolled" Satyr, pedigreed to Jameson and the Grand Duke Alexandre Mikhailovich:

And a Thasos hemidrachm which is small but packs an artistic punch:

Edited April 7 by AncientJoe

[Hrefn]

When precious metal prices increase rapidly, any artifact made of gold or silver becomes subject to a merciless economic calculus.  If the melt price of the object begins to exceed its recent value as a collectible, the temptation to trade it for a quick, anonymous, and liberal cash payment rises as well.   Meanwhile, “Cash for Gold” shops spring up on every street corner.  In the rush to take advantage of the bonanza, desirable coins and jewelry will be swept up into the flood of scrap on its way to the smelter.  I think coins like @AncientJoe’s, above, are relatively safe.   But some beautiful and historic items will be lost.  

Silver prices are still far below their historical highs, and the gold/silver ration is about 85, which is also very high.  If gold prices continue their upward trajectory, I believe it is inevitable that silver will be drawn along in gold’s wake.  I think US coins are relatively safe from the threat of the melting pot, because any US silver coin whose bullion value eclipses its numismatic value can be consigned to the “junk silver” bin.  There is a robust trade in junk silver US coins so there is no advantage to melting it.   Medals and foreign coins will go to the fire.  

As an example, this 50 year old medal commemorates the 1100th anniversary of the discovery of Iceland.  It is massive, weighing 10 Troy ounces of sterling silver.  The obverse, with its incuse and relief elements of a design showing the 4 guardian spirits of the land, is one I find very satisfying.  The reverse is rather ho-hum. 

 

At around $260 dollars for the scrap value, I am not inclined to see it cast into a crucible, even though that exceeds my purchase price. 

But at some price point…. If silver shot up to $100/oz it would be smelter fodder.  Of course, that would only be true if the purchasing power of the US dollar held relatively constant, which is far from certain. 

[Deinomenid]

This one  didn't exactly go for close to the gold spot price but the 1867 auction record, that it was a Vlasto coin, a Fischer-Bossert junior example, and a Berlin plate (albeit one of very many) etc made me sell a kidney for it, so here it is (to show and tell??).

Taras. AU-1/2 Stater, around 280 BC. BC; 4.26g. Head of Heracles in lion skin right//Taras in Biga right, two amphoras below. Fischer-Bossert G 31 j (this example); Ravel, Vlasto 32 (this copy); Rutter, Historia Numorum 985. R Small scratches, otherwise very nice Specimen from the Michel Pandély Vlasto collection; the M. Prosper Dupré collection, Hofffmann auction Paris 1867, No. 17; the Royal Coin Cabinet Berlin No  18, auction Jacob Hirsch 26, Munich 1910, No 15.  The piece is also described and illustrated in Dressel, Heinrich, Royal Museums in Berlin - Description of the Ancient Coins (Third Volume, Section I), Berlin 1894, Plate X, No. 157.

 

[Bonshaw]

It is often said that the British Guiana 1 cent magenta stap is the most valuable man-made object by weight. That is ruling out antimatter, perhaps, which can't be produced or stored at the macroscopic scale anyway. I believe it (the stamp) is around 40 mg, and sold for $9,480,000 in 2014, so that is $237 million USD per gram. As usual, philatelists have numismatists beaten all to heck in terms of excess. Doesn't this look like something worth $237 million per gram?

But now let me go in the opposite direction of this thread. I have idiosyncratic taste in coins. One of my favorites is a modern gold commemorative. It isn't even that attractive. Here is a photo of my coin which is - horror of horrors - entombed in plastic! (Look!  A PF69 Ultra Cameo!!! 🙂)

Just to be extra triggering, I'm using the photo from the NGC website.

This coin is a funny duck for sure, weighing in at 1.22 ounces of gold, with a face value of 350 Canadian dollars. Showcasing the flowers of Canada's coat of arms (and honoring the 90th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Mint, not a favorite of those here), it represents everything that many people hate about modern commemoratives.

So why do I care?  I'm strange. I think that this is the first coin of any material ever minted with 5N (99.999%) purity. No one has told me that, I haven't found it listed anywhere, but I have looked and have failed to find anything this pure minted before 1998. And you can probably pick one up for pretty close to its scrap bullion value.

Why should you care? Well, you probably shouldn't. But I do!

Now back to the main discussion of what ancient gold you bought after selling modern bullion coins.

Edited April 7 by Bonshaw

[John Conduitt]

28 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

It is often said that the British Guiana 1 cent magenta stap is the most valuable man-made object by weight. That is ruling out antimatter, perhaps, which can't be produced or stored at the macroscopic scale anyway. I believe it is around 40 mg, and sold for $9,480,000 in 2014, so that is $237 million USD per gram.

But now let me go in the opposite direction of this thread. I have idiosyncratic taste in coins. One of my favorites is a modern gold commemorative. It isn't even that attractive. Here is a photo of my coin which is - horror of horrors - entombed in plastic!

Just to be extra triggering, I'm using the photo from the NGC website.

This coin is a funny duck for sure, weighing in at 1.22 ounces of gold, with a face value of 350 Canadian dollars. Showcasing the flowers of Canada's coat of arms (and honoring the 90th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Mint, not a favorite of those here), it represents everything that many people hate about modern commemoratives.

So why do I care?  I'm strange. I think that this is the first coin of any material ever minted with 5N (99.999%) purity. No one has told me that, I haven't found it listed anywhere, but I have looked and have failed to find anything this pure, minted before 1998. And you can probably pick one up for pretty close to its scrap bullion value.

Why should you care? Well, you probably shouldn't. But I do!

Now back to the main discussion of what ancient gold you bought after selling modern bullion coins.

No need to apologise. That is just the sort of coin slabs were made for 🤣

Yes I think the Canadian Mint was the first to produce coins at .99999 (and might still be the only one?). 1998 might well be the first.

It seems to be a bit of a gimmick. The price of a bullion coin would be based on the gold content, so it doesn't matter whether a coin is .999, .9999 or .99999. The fact that is has a particular design and is ultra cameo might make more difference to the price than the gold. But as gimmicks go, it's interesting.

[Bonshaw]

5 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

It seems to be a bit of a gimmick. The price of a bullion coin would be based on the gold content, so it doesn't matter whether a coin is .999, .9999 or .99999. The fact that is has a particular design and is ultra cameo might make more difference to the price than the gold. But as gimmicks go, it's interesting.

A gimmick is exactly what it is, and it is a gimmick that worked on me. I do use high-purity materials in my work, and for some reason I love the stuff. It doesn't come cheap in general. I have a bottle of ultra-high-purity helium-3 in my office. This stuff is hard to come by.

[robinjojo]

I used to have an arrangement with a coin dealer to purchase coins that total at or above the sales tax exemption in California, I think at the time it was $1,000.  The coins purchased were below the $1,000 cutoff, so when the coins arrived he would include a bullion gold coin to make up the difference.

This is one of them, valued at $65 at the time.

Australia, George V, sovereign, 1919 Perth Mint.

 

[Tejas]

The rise in gold prices is quite puzzling, especially the latest surge, which coincided with expectations for higher interest rates in the US (normally the gold price is negatively correlated with real interest rates). One reason behind the surge in gold prices is the fact that certain central banks (China, Russia, etc.) buy large amounts of physical gold (in contrast to ETF paper gold, which is seeing outflows). These countries are trying to reduce their dependency from the USD, i.e. they are converting USD reserves into gold reserves. In the long-run these countries may create their own global reserve currency in which they will denominate trade in oil and other commodities. The catalyst for this development is twofold: 1. The sanctions in the wake of the Ukraine war and 2. The  rapid rise in US government debt. The federal debt is now 26.2 trillion and 1bln is added every 100 days. The Congressional Budget Office recently warned that the trajectory was unprecedented and the risk of a fiscal crisis was rising. No wonder that large scale reserve holders are looking to reduce USD exposure.

Edited April 8 by Tejas

[Broucheion]

Hi All,

A small gem.

BERENIKE II (UNDER PTOLEMY III: 246-222 BCE)
UNCERTAIN MINT 32: PERHAPS SELEUCIA IN PIERIA, ca the Third Syrian War

Tetartai (Gold 1/16th Mnaieon = Hemidrachm)
Size: 10 mm
Weight: 1.6 g
Axis: 11:00
Dies: O09/R13
Broucheion Collection P-1994-11-29.001

Obv: Berenike, veiled bust facing right wearing diademed stephane and lotus scepter of Arsinoe Philadelphus. Dotted border.
Rev: Single cornucopia tied with a filleted diadem. On left: [ΒΑΣΙΛΗΣ]ΣΗΣ, on right: ΒΕΡΕΝΑΚΗ[Σ]. Dotted border not visible.
Refs: CPE-806; Svoronos 983, pl xxxv, 15-16 [5 listed]. Sng Copenhagen-170 for type (silver trihemiobol); BMC 06.060, #015; Sear-7831.
Note: Sewell-Lasiter die study (2020) dies O09/R13, also showing globules. Only sixteen examples noted by van Driessche (van Driessche 983).
Prov: George Beach, Auction #22 (1994) Lot #3

From CPE-806 entry: "The small gold coins of this issue confuse or deliberately blend the iconography of Berenice II with that of Arsinoe Philadelphus, portraying the younger queen with the stephane and lotus scepter of her predecessor. A similar mixing of the two queens’ attributes can be observed on the mnaieia of Uncertain Mint 33 (CPE 809-811), and details of the diadems binding their cornuacopiae were exchanged at Alexandria early in the reign (see CPE 733-734). On the first of the tetartai, CPE 806, the queen's name and title are transposed from their usual positions, as on the gold eighth mnaieion of Ptolemy III (CPE 805), on a tetradrachm portraying Ptolemy III (CPE 781), and on the reverse of bronzes of Berenice II from Heraclea by the Sea or Seleucia in Pieria (CPE B452-B459). On the gold fractions and on the bronzes the diadem tied round the cornucopiae is rendered in similar fashion. As noted above, CPE 805 & 806 are probably companion pieces, perhaps struck at Seleucia in Pieria soon after its surrender to Ptolemy III. In contrast, CPE 807 displays the straight diadem ends and legend configuration characteristic of the Alexandrian coinage of Berenice, as well as a control letter. These differences may reflect a later correction of the anomalies of CPE 806.

The tetarte, defined as one-sixteenth of the mnaieion, had been struck previously at Alexandria under Ptolemy I as one of the novel denominations of his currency reform of 294 (see CPE 129, 134, 139, 144, 149, 155, 172). It failed to establish itself as an essential denomination of the Ptolemaic currency system and is attested mainly as a unit of weight used in connection with jewelry. Its revival at the beginning of Euergetes’ reign seems to reflect the same innovative tendency as the revival of the Attic standard in Egypt for the coinage of Berenice II."

- Broucheion

[Bonshaw]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:00 AM, Hrefn said:

When precious metal prices increase rapidly, any artifact made of gold or silver becomes subject to a merciless economic calculus.  If the melt price of the object begins to exceed its recent value as a collectible, the temptation to trade it for a quick, anonymous, and liberal cash payment rises as well.   Meanwhile, “Cash for Gold” shops spring up on every street corner.  In the rush to take advantage of the bonanza, desirable coins and jewelry will be swept up into the flood of scrap on its way to the smelter.  I think coins like @AncientJoe’s, above, are relatively safe.   But some beautiful and historic items will be lost.  

Silver prices are still far below their historical highs, and the gold/silver ration is about 85, which is also very high.  If gold prices continue their upward trajectory, I believe it is inevitable that silver will be drawn along in gold’s wake.  I think US coins are relatively safe from the threat of the melting pot, because any US silver coin whose bullion value eclipses its numismatic value can be consigned to the “junk silver” bin.  There is a robust trade in junk silver US coins so there is no advantage to melting it.   Medals and foreign coins will go to the fire.  

As an example, this 50 year old medal commemorates the 1100th anniversary of the discovery of Iceland.  It is massive, weighing 10 Troy ounces of sterling silver.  The obverse, with its incuse and relief elements of a design showing the 4 guardian spirits of the land, is one I find very satisfying.  The reverse is rather ho-hum. 

 

At around $260 dollars for the scrap value, I am not inclined to see it cast into a crucible, even though that exceeds my purchase price. 

But at some price point…. If silver shot up to $100/oz it would be smelter fodder.  Of course, that would only be true if the purchasing power of the US dollar held relatively constant, which is far from certain. 

I have one of these that isn't going into the smelter. Because mine is bronze. Bronze would have to go up in price a lot to smelt it!  I love Kristín Þorkelsdóttir's art, and I love Iceland (although I've only spent one week there back in the 90s).

For those interested, here is a link to Kristín Þorkelsdóttir's banknotes:

Kristin Thorkelsdóttir – Numista

It is interesting to compare the two identical medals, in bronze and silver. Some medals look a lot better in silver. Some look a lot better in bronze. I like the looks of this one better in bronze. Obviously, this is a purely subjective statement.

I'm preparing a post comparing some of the Panticapaeum satyr coins, with very similar satyr representations in both bronze and gold. This is another opportunity for this comparison, in an ancient context with very skilled artisans in both metals.

Edited April 17 by Bonshaw

[robinjojo]

Quite a few years ago there was another runup on the spot price of gold and silver.  I was working for the county at the time, and sometimes I would take the bus from my workplace during lunch and visit my local coin shop.  On one visit I noticed a box of scrap silver destined for the smelter.  I found this object among the flatware, trays, candle holders and other objects, both sterling and plated.  I immediately recognized the elegant form as Georgian silver, a creamer, rather worn but still very attractive.  It was produced by a silversmith, Hester Bateman, around 1787.  She was one of only a handful of female silversmiths in London, and while her pieces generally do not command the premium prices of other contemporary silversmiths, I am still happy to have rescued this charming creamer from oblivion, probably to emerge in the form of a silver round!

 

[Bonshaw]

Beautiful, have you ever used it with cream?