Julius Germanicus Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 I would like to take some (lets say, five) Sestertii (nothing fancy, let´s say 200 USD value each) with me by airplane from Germany to the US (for certification). Let´s say, in my wallet. Do I have to expect hassle from the customs? I am fed up by sending them via mail because of the rising theft rate and the hour-long visits to the customs office for pre-declaration. Any advice? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 (edited) Ethically and morally, carrying coins that are rightfully yours across borders is completely okay. But the legal aspects and how officials react when they see old coins are often crackbrained and ignorant (see here). Even if you are the rightful owner. To take no risk, I would ask the airport customs administration via telephone if you have to declare them and if this is complicated or not. If they cannot help you there, I would indeed consider just putting the coins in the wallet. But the X-rays are quite precise, so I assume that they could detect coin flips and they might also notice the unusually large size of the coins. Therefore, I would think a bit about how to arrange everything in the wallet to make detection via X-rays unlikely. Edited February 2 by Salomons Cat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broucheion Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 Hi @Julius Germanicus, Viator cave. - Broucheion 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn235 Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 If the airport isn't helpful about how to declare the coins, I would probably just mail them to yourself. Probably much less likely that they'll get seized that way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted February 2 · Supporter Share Posted February 2 (edited) You could put them in a bag with a bunch of kitschy tourist stuff and souvenirs and they probably won’t even get a look. If you have your invoices and proofs of purchase you can keep those with you just in case. If it were me I wouldn’t draw attention to it by asking too many questions. Good luck! Edited February 2 by Curtisimo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted February 2 · Supporter Share Posted February 2 4 hours ago, Julius Germanicus said: Do I have to expect hassle from the customs? I am fed up by sending them via mail because of the rising theft rate and the hour-long visits to the customs office for pre-declaration. I am from Germany but have lived in the US from 2015–2020. In those years, I regularly travelled back and forth between the US and Europe, and I often bought some coins when I was I Europe and brought them back to the US with me. Customs never asked any questions. For good measure, I always had the respective invoices with me as proof of legal purchase. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted February 2 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 2 FWIW, I carried a coin home with my from a trip to Paris. When I purchased it at CGB, I asked if I needed to declare anything coming back to the US. They said no as long as it was < $2000. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 (edited) Hello @Julius Germanicus. You have asked a good question. I said it in the thread mentioned by @Salomons Cat above, and I'll say it again. 1st Rule Of Coin Club : Don't talk about Coin Club. 2nd Rule Of Coin Club : Don't take your coins to an airport. I wouldn't call the airport. That may draw attention and suspicion to yourself, and maybe even a search warrant for your home. And, I wouldn't try to hide the sestertii among other things in your luggage, or in your pocket, or in your wallet. If they find the sestertii, and if they think you tried to hide them, then they'll come down even harder on you. For me, having coins lost or stolen in the mail, is better than possibly being arrested, and having your home searched, and possibly having your entire coin collection seized, and becoming a news story. For me, there is no moral reason, why people should not be allowed to own ancient coins, from another country. However, some governments seem to disagree with me. Here's that thread, which @Salomons Cat mentioned above. Edited February 2 by sand 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientJoe Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 (edited) I agree with sand - traveling internationally with coins is a dangerous idea. Airport and customs employees aren't experts in cultural property: an old coin surely must have been stolen from a museum. You could end up detained or have the coins confiscated. They could theoretically be returned at some point but not without a lengthy battle; not worth the risk in my eyes. Sure, you could end up going through completely unscathed and save some shipping hassles but the risks don't outweigh the benefits. I'd also question the need to slab $200 coins. The slabbing costs will amount to >20% of the value of each coin: would it be better to just put them in holders which could be re-opened? Further, if you're looking to sell, slabbing bronze often doesn't help the coins as NGC will point out the issues (it's rare that bronze doesn't have at least some smoothing). I'd sooner sell to another collector or dealer rather than deal with the gamble of traveling to have coins graded which could ultimately hurt their value. And more importantly: bronze coins are simply too fun to hold to be encapsulated in plastic. Edited February 2 by AncientJoe 13 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted February 2 · Member Share Posted February 2 You need a balloon and some oil, pm me for the rest of the instructions 3 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtis JJ Posted February 3 · Supporter Share Posted February 3 (edited) 3 hours ago, AETHER said: You need a balloon and some oil, pm me for the rest of the instructions Honestly, as Jean Foy Vaillant demonstrated in 1674, the balloon part is unnecessary. Toward the bottom of the third paragraph: https://isaw.nyu.edu/library/blog/arsacidarum-imperium Edited February 3 by Curtis JJ 5 1 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted February 3 · Member Share Posted February 3 FWIW, there are no US import restrictions on Roman imperial coins, so you should be able to legally bring them into the US with you without some proof of provenance, and you shouldn’t need to declare them either if their value is below the threshold. That said, who knows how customs officials will react if they find them on you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted February 3 · Supporter Share Posted February 3 9 hours ago, Curtis JJ said: Honestly, as Jean Foy Vaillant demonstrated in 1674, the balloon part is unnecessary. Toward the bottom of the third paragraph: https://isaw.nyu.edu/library/blog/arsacidarum-imperium Gosh! They say "pecunia non olet" – but I guess that didn't apply to those 21 gold coins when they "resurfaced." 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtis JJ Posted February 3 · Supporter Share Posted February 3 (edited) 9 hours ago, Sol_Invictus said: FWIW, there are no US import restrictions on Roman imperial coins, so you should be able to legally bring them into the US with you without some proof of provenance, and you shouldn’t need to declare them either if their value is below the threshold. That said, who knows how customs officials will react if they find them on you. Not exactly. I've had Roman Imperial coins seized/detained multiple (almost "many") times by US Customs since the 2010s. All but once they were released when I gave them paperwork. (Often enough I don't even worry much when it happens. They just want a form.) Here's why: They are not listed in Italy's import restrictions. (At least according to ACCG, I don't remember what the text of the most recent MOU said, but last I read it, I thought it applied to almost anything >100 years old - including books! Either way....) That only means the US won't confiscate them FOR Italy. They seize Roman Imperial coins if they suspect they came from other counties, and repatriate them to those countries. (Also, even if not specifically listed in the Italy MOU, I suspect there are sections of the text that could apply to Imperials--that is, if it wasn't updated. I'm not sure I believe what ACCG says about restrictions on later Republican either, but I could be misremembering that.) Edited February 3 by Curtis JJ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salomons Cat Posted February 3 · Member Share Posted February 3 (edited) 4 hours ago, Curtis JJ said: Not exactly. I've had Roman Imperial coins seized/detained multiple (almost "many") times by US Customs since the 2010s. All but once they were released when I gave them paperwork. (Often enough I don't even worry much when it happens. They just want a form.) Here's why: They are not listed in Italy's import restrictions. (At least according to ACCG, I don't remember what the text of the most recent MOU said, but last I read it, I thought it applied to almost anything >100 years old - including books! Either way....) That only means the US won't confiscate them FOR Italy. They seize Roman Imperial coins if they suspect they came from other counties, and repatriate them to those countries. (Also, even if not specifically listed in the Italy MOU, I suspect there are sections of the text that could apply to Imperials--that is, if it wasn't updated. I'm not sure I believe what ACCG says about restrictions on later Republican either, but I could be misremembering that.) That's also how I understand the current legal framework. (see here: https://accguild.org/Ancient-Coin-Import-Restrictions) Getting an ancient coin through the airport requires exactly the same things as sending them via mail. Many of you probably know the DHL form that you have to fill out in order to get an ancient coin across the border with DHL. The airport customs seem to ask for exactly the same kind of information and it appears to be similar for basically any country. If you cannot show the required documents directly at the airport, they seize the coins and give you a certain amount of time (90 days I believe?) to organize them. Of course, the hurdles become higher if they decide that the coins are cultural goods (in many cases, their decisions will probably be quite irrational, so this is probably the unpredictable part...) Edited February 3 by Salomons Cat 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted February 3 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 3 I would not risk it. My only travel with coins in my possession has been interstate in the U.S. an overzealous customs agent could cause a lot of problems. When I returned from Egypt to the U.S. I brought a Koran I had purchased that had been published by Al-Azhar in exquisite Arab script. I had used it not only for my nascent study of Arabic but also as a tool if I came into contact with Islamists or Salafis as a discussion item. As it turns out I had a couple of encounters with devout Muslim young men who, let us say, were not supportive of the U.S. activities in the Middle East. The fact that I was studying Islam was somewhat mollifying to these guys in both Coptos and Sinai. When I returned customs asked me as to why I had it in my possession and considered confiscating my travel notes. They asked for my phone number and said they would contact me if they had additional questions. So I would not do anything to make yourself stand out from the crowd. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted February 3 · Supporter Share Posted February 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted February 3 · Supporter Share Posted February 3 6 hours ago, Ancient Coin Hunter said: I would not risk it. My only travel with coins in my possession has been interstate in the U.S. an overzealous customs agent could cause a lot of problems. When I returned from Egypt to the U.S. I brought a Koran I had purchased that had been published by Al-Azhar in exquisite Arab script. I had used it not only for my nascent study of Arabic but also as a tool if I came into contact with Islamists or Salafis as a discussion item. As it turns out I had a couple of encounters with devout Muslim young men who, let us say, were not supportive of the U.S. activities in the Middle East. The fact that I was studying Islam was somewhat mollifying to these guys in both Coptos and Sinai. When I returned customs asked me as to why I had it in my possession and considered confiscating my travel notes. They asked for my phone number and said they would contact me if they had additional questions. So I would not do anything to make yourself stand out from the crowd. I got pulled out of the check-in line for a US airline in London when they noticed I had stamps in my passport from a couple of countries that used Arabic script. I think it was UAE, Bahrain and Jordan. It even said so in English. I was worried I was going to miss my flight until finally my passport was given to the one person who had any idea about geopolitics. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted February 4 · Supporter Share Posted February 4 On 2/2/2024 at 6:09 PM, AETHER said: You need a balloon and some oil, pm me for the rest of the instructions As a physician, I can assure you the old balloon / oil trick dose NOT always work! 1 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Germanicus Posted February 11 · Member Author Share Posted February 11 (edited) Thank you all for the good ideas (even though there does not seem to be a consensus). I guess I´ll play it safe again and spend an hour at the customs office once more and register them for re-entry even though five of my most beloved Sestertii were stolen on the way to the PO box by some USPS employee. On 2/2/2024 at 11:44 PM, AncientJoe said: I'd also question the need to slab $200 coins. The slabbing costs will amount to >20% of the value of each coin: would it be better to just put them in holders which could be re-opened? Further, if you're looking to sell, slabbing bronze often doesn't help the coins as NGC will point out the issues (it's rare that bronze doesn't have at least some smoothing). I'd sooner sell to another collector or dealer rather than deal with the gamble of traveling to have coins graded which could ultimately hurt their value. And more importantly: bronze coins are simply too fun to hold to be encapsulated in plastic. No, I will not get them slabbed, but submit them to David Sear for certification as I did with nearly all of my Sestertii because I like his detailed description and historic background write-ups no matter how little a coin has cost me and not even depending on if I keep the particular coin. This way I keep a "virtual" version of my (formerly) complete Sestertius portrait gallery which I plan to work into a printed catalogue one day. Edited February 11 by Julius Germanicus 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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