Xeno Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) Here's a new coin I just ordered yesterday but absolutely cannot wait for it to arrive. PTOLEMAIC KINGS of EGYPT. Ptolemy II Philadelphos. 285-246 BC. Æ Drachm (41mm/69.07gr). Alexandreia mint. Post-Reform, Series 3. Struck circa 261/0-246. Diademed head of Zeus-Ammon right / Two eagles with closed wings standing left on thunderbolt. I am just enchanted by the size especially, I have another Ptolemaic kings coin that weighs 37g which was by far my largest coin! Cannot wait to feel this 69g monster in hand! Post your massive coins for me to see! I'm sure a forum member can top 69g! Edited December 31, 2023 by Xeno 21 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted December 31, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 31, 2023 Congrats! There is something fascinating about these giant chunks of bronze. I wonder what it was like using them in daily commerce? Looks like we have very similar types. If you've not pinpointed your coin's attribution, here's an online resource I like to use: Ptolemaic Coins Online (numismatics.org) PTOLEMY II, 284-246 BC AE Drachm (43.29mm, 72.67g, 1h) Struck 266-261 BC. Egypt, Alexandria mint Obverse: Horned head of Zeus Ammon right, wearing taenia with basileion Reverse: ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ on l. ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ on r.; two eagles with closed wings standing left on two thunderbolts; monograms between legs References: CPE B241 Warm brown surfaces. A massive piece, over two and a half ounces of bronze. 17 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 31, 2023 I wonder how these beasts were actually used, and what their purchasing power was? They seem unpracticably heavy to be carrying around on the off-chance you want to spend one ... more for a pre-planned payment perhaps ? More bullion than coin ? 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, Heliodromus said: I wonder how these beasts were actually used, and what their purchasing power was? They seem unpracticably heavy to be carrying around on the off-chance you want to spend one ... more for a pre-planned payment perhaps ? More bullion than coin ? I was just wondering the same thing. I was chuckling a bit imagining someone bringing 20 of these bad boys down to the liquor store to buy a 6 pack and some snacks... or the ancient equivalent, a ridiculous situation I know but amusing. I would imagine they were more valuable than that though, like you say I kind of doubt these were circulating as much as smaller coins because they would be less practical. Although maybe still more practical than the tertartemorions... at least with one of these chunkers it wouldn't be lost. If anyone has any idea what the purchasing power of one of these would have been please let me know. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValiantKnight Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 31, 2023 Ptolemy III Euergetes, Ptolemaic Kingdom AE octobol Obv: Diademed head of Zeus-Ammon right Rev: BAΣIΛEΩΣ ΠTOΛEMAIOY, eagle with open wings standing left on thunderbolt, head right; E between legs Mint: Alexandria Date: 246-222 BC Ref: Svoronos 446; SNG Copenhagen 142 (Ptolemy II); Lorber series 4 Size: 48 mm, 93 gm 19 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, ValiantKnight said: Ptolemy III Euergetes, Ptolemaic Kingdom AE octobol Obv: Diademed head of Zeus-Ammon right Rev: BAΣIΛEΩΣ ΠTOΛEMAIOY, eagle with open wings standing left on thunderbolt, head right; E between legs Mint: Alexandria Date: 246-222 BC Ref: Svoronos 446; SNG Copenhagen 142 (Ptolemy II); Lorber series 4 Size: 48 mm, 93 gm Wow 93 grams!!! I absolutely love it! I wonder if someone has one over 100... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValiantKnight Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 31, 2023 21 minutes ago, Xeno said: Wow 93 grams!!! I absolutely love it! I wonder if someone has one over 100... I think @Alegandron might have a Carthaginian bronze that’s at or around 100 grams IIRC. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 31, 2023 Not the biggest, but the strike & condition are hard to beat 😏. 13 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted December 31, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 40 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said: Not the biggest, but the strike & condition are hard to beat 😏. Gorgeous example! As you said beautiful strike and condition, I like the dark patina too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted December 31, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 31, 2023 (edited) It's a bit early, but happy 2024! Nice examples posted! Here's my rough (corroded) Ptolemy II drachm. This coin came loose in a box from Germany that was partially open. It was pure luck that it didn't fall out in transit. Ptolemy II Philadelphus, AE drachm, circa 265 BC, Alexandria, delta below eagle. SV 431 66.91 grams Edited December 31, 2023 by robinjojo 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor LONGINUS Posted January 1 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted January 1 (edited) Massive coin and great post, @Xeno ! They certainly cannot be confused with hemiobols ! Edited January 1 by LONGINUS 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted January 1 · Member Author Share Posted January 1 @LONGINUS Do you happen to know the weight of these beauties? They are lovely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted January 1 · Supporter Share Posted January 1 5 hours ago, Heliodromus said: wonder how these beasts were actually used, and what their purchasing power was 5 hours ago, Xeno said: If anyone has any idea what the purchasing power of one of these would have been please let me know This is one of the most complicated subjects I’ve ever read about and the best reference is a UChicago (of course!) PhD dissertation on it which takes 850 pages to sort of explain it. With the huge proviso that this is a best guess and that not long after this coin’s time there began a giant inflation, silver was worth around 60 times the value of bronze (largely by diktat and that silver was not freely tradeable abroad) and wages averaged 1.125 obol a day. For context after the move to the bronze standard and the inflation that resulted by 182BC wages averaged 83 obols a day! It’s hard to say exactly what that 1.125 obol would buy as so many prices were fixed by the state and the units so complex but it’s a reasonable assumption that that was a subsistence level wage for periods when not tending to one’s own land (again, who owned land is a screwed up subject but not the farmer!) Note 6 obol equal one drachma. Insane levels of detail for masochists at UChicago B. Hayden PhD thesis. She references other more established authors of course but the thesis is fairly new which is important for the data - especially from whatever new crate of Oxyrhynchus papyri at Oxford is being opened -which keeps changing. Tldr- this coin is from a time when the silver to bronze ratio was fairly clear and so really worth 1g of silver which was about a week’s wage for a day laborer. This is a tiny compared to a similar laborer in say Athens at the time. I have no idea why especially given all that is said of Egypt’s great riches and the 200,000 person (?) immigration of Greeks into it though of course they weren’t looking for day laborer jobs!There were only 24 data points used for the wage estimates of 1.125 obols so it all may be screwed up and this reply should just be deleted. 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted January 1 · Member Author Share Posted January 1 2 minutes ago, Deinomenid said: This is one of the most complicated subjects I’ve ever read about and the best reference is a UChicago (of course!) PhD dissertation on it which takes 850 pages to sort of explain it. With the huge proviso that this is a best guess and that not long after this coin’s time there began a giant inflation, silver was worth around 60 times the value of bronze (largely by diktat and that silver was not freely tradeable abroad) and wages averaged 1.125 obol a day. For context after the move to the bronze standard and the inflation that resulted by 182BC wages averaged 83 obols a day! It’s hard to say exactly what that 1.125 obol would buy as so many prices were fixed by the state and the units so complex but it’s a reasonable assumption that that was a subsistence level wage for periods when not tending to one’s own land (again, who owned land is a screwed up subject but not the farmer!) Note 6 obol equal one drachma. Insane levels of detail for masochists at UChicago B. Hayden PhD thesis. She references other more established authors of course but the thesis is fairly new which is important for the data - especially from whatever new crate of Oxyrhynchus papyri at Oxford is being opened -which keeps changing. Tldr- this coin is from a time when the silver to bronze ratio was fairly clear and so really worth 1g of silver which was about a week’s wage for a day laborer. This is a tiny compared to a similar laborer in say Athens at the time. I have no idea why especially given all that is said of Egypt’s great riches and the 200,000 person (?) immigration of Greeks into it though of course they weren’t looking for day laborer jobs!There were only 24 data points used for the wage estimates of 1.125 obols so it all may be screwed up and this reply should just be deleted. @Deinomenid Thank you so much for the detailed response. Absolutely fascinating to compare these historical phenomena to what is happening today around us, it is nothing short of eye-opening. On another note, once again I am humbled and stunned at the research abilities not only of this community but of the scholarly works referenced. It is inspirational to see such incredible research ability from so many people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor LONGINUS Posted January 1 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted January 1 6 hours ago, Xeno said: @LONGINUS Do you happen to know the weight of these beauties? They are lovely. New Years greetings, @Xeno — and a belated welcome to the NVMIS FORVMS. My apologies for forgetting to add the weight — the Ptolemy IV weighs 46.67 g. and Ptolemy VIII &III weighs in at 27.45 g. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeno Posted January 1 · Member Author Share Posted January 1 10 hours ago, LONGINUS said: New Years greetings, @Xeno — and a belated welcome to the NVMIS FORVMS. My apologies for forgetting to add the weight — the Ptolemy IV weighs 46.67 g. and Ptolemy VIII &III weighs in at 27.45 g. @LONGINUS A very happy new years too you! And thank you for the welcome! You guys are the best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted January 9 · Supporter Share Posted January 9 North Africa: Carthaginian Empire my largest stamped / hammered coin Carthage 201-175 BCE Æ, 15 Shekels 45 mm 7.5 mm thick. 102g Wreathed Tanit Horse Uraeus above. MAA 104 SNG Cop 400 3 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted January 9 · Supporter Share Posted January 9 (edited) This one gives me a chuckle: Ptolemy II issues an Obol at 6.7g... Egypt Ptolemy II 285-274 BC AE Obol 20mm 6.7g Alex III Eagle Tbolt Plain SV 601 Then, ole Ptolemy III has to one-up him with one at 10 times larger - 67g... Egypt Ptolemy III AE Tet 41mm 7.2mm thick 67.5g Zeus Ammon Eagle Cornucopia XP Chi-Rho Edited January 9 by Alegandron 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted January 9 · Supporter Share Posted January 9 But with all these honkin' big-as coins from Egypt, I still enjoy my baby DiChalkon from Trajan: RI Trajan Egypt AE Dichalkon Laureate hd L Rhinoceros walking L LI-Z yr 17 CE 113-114 12.9mm 1.25g Emmet 719 var. rhino right 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzerman Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 I do not have any big AE coins But I have a 1969 Proof Set from Uganda/ 5 gold/ 6 silver. The 1000 Shilings weighs 140 g/ a modern 40 Dukaten size coin. Beautifull design for modern coin. Set has 7 oz. gold. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 (edited) On 12/31/2023 at 3:08 PM, Heliodromus said: I wonder how these beasts were actually used Probably in warfare, as sling bullets. You could knock the life outta somebody with one of those, if you fired it from a sling! Would probably make a mean buzzing sound as it flew to its target, too. 😉 Edited January 9 by lordmarcovan Edited to add "wink" emoji 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 This honkin' huge Siberian 10-kopecks of Catherine the Great is my largest coin. Per Numista, the specs are: 45 mm diameter, 65.5 g, 4 mm thick. It only barely fits inside a standard NGC holder (the older, pre-prong style). The slab even bulges a tiny bit. Since mine is an all-slabbed collection, and I choose not to include anything in oversized holders, this is about as big as anything in my collection is likely to get. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 On 12/31/2023 at 4:18 PM, Al Kowsky said: Not the biggest, but the strike & condition are hard to beat 😏. I can see why that one got the "star" rating! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, panzerman said: I do not have any big AE coins But I have a 1969 Proof Set from Uganda/ 5 gold/ 6 silver. The 1000 Shilings weighs 140 g/ a modern 40 Dukaten size coin. Beautifull design for modern coin. Set has 7 oz. gold. If y'all will forgive me for continuing the brief digression into modern gold, I would like to inquire if @panzerman has one of these. At 35 mm, it's not absolutely huge, but pretty big for a gold coin. 31.4890 g and 1.0114 oz bullion content. I know it's ultra modern and looks like a guitar pick, but hey, I like it. (What's not to like about that much gold, right?) OK, modern digression is over now. Resume discussion of Ptolemaic "hockey pucks" or other ancient heavies. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted January 9 · Member Share Posted January 9 5 hours ago, panzerman said: I do not have any big AE coins But I have a 1969 Proof Set from Uganda/ 5 gold/ 6 silver. The 1000 Shilings weighs 140 g/ a modern 40 Dukaten size coin. Beautifull design for modern coin. Set has 7 oz. gold. John, It's amazing that coins like this one & the Bermuda $60 gold coin that L.M. posted survived the melting pot when the price of gold surged 😃. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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