UPDATE: CUSTOMS ISSUES 3 sestertii offered by same dealer with very similar patinas: coincidence?

[DonnaML]

I was considering buying one or two of these, all offered by a dealer in France, but noticed how similar the patinas look, especially the first two. Coincidence? From same hoard? Some artificial process? If it's the last, I'll stay away. (I realize that by calling attention to them I risk someone buying the one(s) I'm interested in, but so be it.) I should add that the same dealer has at least half a dozen other sestertii among its new listings that look pretty much the same.

Edited November 24, 2023 by DonnaML

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

The first two look a bit funny Donna. Maybe @Julius Germanicus can shed some light as he has many of the orichalcum colored sestertii. Severus Alexander looks OK. In fact I have a similar coin (Victoria Augusti) but not Victory inscribing a shield, instead holding a wreath and palm.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Ancient Coin Hunter

[Ryro]

Lovely coins! I'm not well steeped in false patination, but it looks natural enough to my amateur eyes. 

A while back I picked up these two from the same auction and thought they had notable similar patina. My first thought was that they were from the same hoard;

 

[robinjojo]

The three sestertii appear to have been cleaned and treated with Ren Wax or possibly Verdicare.  The first two might have had some light smoothing done, but that it hard to tell from the photos 

It is hard to say that the three have been artificially patinated.  They do seem to be retoning. 

 

[Prieure de Sion]

27 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I was considering buying one or two of these, all offered by a dealer in France, but noticed how similar the patinas look, especially the first two. Coincidence? From same hoard? Some artificial process? If it's the last, I'll stay away. (I realize that by calling attention to them I risk someone buying the one(s) I'm interested in, but so be it.) I should add that the same dealer has at least half a dozen other sestertii among its new listings that look pretty much the same.

The latter does not have to be.

There is also a dealer on VCoins - all bronzes look the same (in terms of colour and shade). I ordered two bronzes there myself. I also had the fear that if they all look the same (patina), that there is something artificial here.

But in real life, the colour was different each time. 

The reason is the filter of the image processing. Some dealers often use the same image processing settings - and then bronzes in particular all look the same. 

So it doesn't have to be an artificial patina - it could just be the filter.

Why don't you ask the dealer to take the bronze you are interested in, take an unprocessed mobile phone photo and send it to you? Or a small video. Then you can see how the coins really look in the hand.

[Limes]

Generally speaking (and I'm no expert and l dont want to get sued by you 😁) the coins look ok. However, the photos are bad. I can see several possibilities, in which better photos can help. First, the patina is ok. Especially on the first two coins, the lighter areas are as to be expected (high areas and in larger fields are more worn, and thus lighter). However, its impossible to tell of its artifically done, or that there is a case of smoothing in the fields (which could also lead to lighter areas). Its impossible to see. 

The colour of the patina in general looks ok. The fact that the seller has several of these coins on offer would not let me to the conclusion that there's something wrong per se. Perhaps the seller offers a collection with similarly patinated coins. Or perhaps is just coincidence. I assume you looked at review of this seller, perhaps there's a clue to be found there? 

Anyway, personally I'd start with asking for better photos.

[DonnaML]

Thanks for all the opinions. FYI, the dealer is Carthago on VCoins if anyone wants to look at their other new sestertii. I have never bought anything from them.

[Prieure de Sion]

4 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

the dealer is Carthago on VCoins if anyone wants to look at their other new sestertii.

I didn't want to write the name publicly here - this is exactly the dealer (colleague) I meant 😄 

In the past, his bronzes were all green. 

I have this bronze from him, for example:
https://yothr.me/cri/yothr-cri-177-50a-commodus-quadriga/ 

The picture is of him - and then you look at the real colour further down in my video. As I said - about 6 months ago, all his pictures of bronzes were green. He probably changed the filter of his image processing to brown now.

But I am very happy with his bronzes. All the ones I got were real and of very good quality.

[idesofmarch01]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

I was considering buying one or two of these, all offered by a dealer in France, but noticed how similar the patinas look, especially the first two. Coincidence? From same hoard? Some artificial process? If it's the last, I'll stay away.

If it's an artificially applied patina, is that a deal-breaker?  All three coins appear to be genuine and not tooled, plus the reverses exhibit pretty good detail.  The patinas don't appear to be obscuring flaws on the coins, so other than possibly being artificial, there's no real downside to whether or not the coins were re-patinated.  Possibly I'm missing something here?

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, robinjojo said:

The three sestertii appear to have been cleaned and treated with Ren Wax or possibly Verdicare.  The first two might have had some light smoothing done, but that it hard to tell from the photos 

It is hard to say that the three have been artificially patinated.  They do seem to be retoning. 

 

Yes it might be that they are originally from an old collection, when the way to look after your bronze coins was to coat them in something.

[DonnaML]

Thanks again for all the helpful advice. I went ahead and bought two of the three. I will be curious to see what they look like in hand!

[David Atherton]

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Thanks for all the opinions. FYI, the dealer is Carthago on VCoins if anyone wants to look at their other new sestertii. I have never bought anything from them.

Very reputable seller. He used to be active on the Forvm discussion boards back in the day. Never had an issue with him.

[Roman Collector]

Here are a couple I bought from Carthago. The first is more brownish-green and the second is bottle-green.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:36 PM, DonnaML said:

Thanks for all the opinions. FYI, the dealer is Carthago on VCoins if anyone wants to look at their other new sestertii. I have never bought anything from them.

I bought something from them a while ago and had a positive experience 

[JeandAcre]

With apologies in advance for wallowing in the obvious (slapped both hands; still couldn't stop), if you were looking at a dealer with the same patina for coins of widely differing age ranges, that would be a real smoking gun.  But @Prieure de Sion's and @John Conduitt's qualifications are pretty resonant.

[DonnaML]

I have received the following response from Carthago's proprietor to my inquiry regarding the reason for the similar patinas of a number of the 3rd century sestertii he has (or had) for sale: "The two sestertii you bought are part of a hoard of 130 sestertii of the same type and condition. They have only been lightly cleaned. I will soon be selling more sestertii from this hoard." Very interesting indeed.

Edited to add: in response to my further inquiry, he states that the hoard was found in Tunisia. Perhaps that's where he comes from?

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by DonnaML

[Roman Collector]

4 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I have received the following response from Carthago's proprietor to my inquiry regarding the reason for the similar patinas of a number of the 3rd century sestertii he has (or had) for sale: "The two sestertii you bought are part of a hoard of 130 sestertii of the same type and condition. They have only been lightly cleaned. I will soon be selling more sestertii from this hoard." Very interesting indeed.

Edited to add: in response to my further inquiry, he states that the hoard was found in Tunisia. Perhaps that's where he comes from?

 

I think he is. One of my sestertii came from that Tunisian hoard.

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, Roman Collector said:

I think he is. One of my sestertii came from that Tunisian hoard.

Did you buy it recently? He said that most of his coins come from different Tunisian hoards. Obviously he has sources there! I have no idea what treaties or MOUs are in effect (if any) regarding the export to France of ancient coins found in Tunisia. There's certainly  a long tradition of such transactions: you may recall that that Roman pottery bust of a lady I bought, that may have been intended to represent Faustina II, was exported to France from Tunisia by a French colonial administrator stationed in Sousse, Tunisia from 1890-1920.

Edited October 26, 2023 by DonnaML

[Roman Collector]

17 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Did you buy it recently? He said that most of his coins come from different Tunisian hoards. Obviously he has sources there! I have no idea what treaties or MOUs are in effect (if any) regarding the export to France of ancient coins found in Tunisia. There's certainly  a long tradition of such transactions: you may recall that that Roman pottery bust of a lady I bought, that may have been intended to represent Faustina II, was exported to France from Tunisia by a French colonial administrator stationed in Sousse, Tunisia from 1890-1920.

It was more than a year ago.

[DonnaML]

Just now, Roman Collector said:

It was more than a year ago.

So perhaps a different Tunisian hoard, if there's been a series of them.  Remember that he said that the current hoard of 130 sestertii, not all of which he's put up for sale yet, are all of "the same type and condition." I don't know if yours looks anything like the three I posted.

[Roman Collector]

1 minute ago, DonnaML said:

So perhaps a different Tunisian hoard, if there's been a series of them.  Remember that he said that the current hoard of 130 sestertii, not all of which he's put up for sale yet, are all of "the same type and condition." I don't know if yours looks anything like the three I posted.

Oh, I forgot about this one, too.

[DonnaML]

How many times does something like this have to happen before I learn my lesson about what invariably happens when I tempt fate by posting photos of new purchases -- especially from Europe -- right after I buy them, without waiting for their arrival? At least this time there was finally a happy ending, despite the package being mysteriously stuck in US Customs for almost four weeks! Here's the tracking history:

Delivered

Delivered, Left with Individual

NEW YORK, NY 1----

November 22, 2023, 1:30 pm

Out for Delivery

NEW YORK, NY 1---- 

November 22, 2023, 8:02 am

Arrived at Post Office

NEW YORK, NY 1----

November 22, 2023, 7:51 am

Arrived at USPS Facility

NEW YORK, NY 1---- 

November 22, 2023, 7:12 am

Departed USPS Regional Facility

NEW YORK NY DISTRIBUTION CENTER 

November 22, 2023, 6:09 am

Arrived at USPS Regional Destination Facility

NEW YORK NY DISTRIBUTION CENTER 

November 22, 2023, 3:50 am

Missing Mail Search Request Initiated, Missing Mail Search Request ID XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

November 13, 2023, 3:23 pm

Inbound Into Customs

 

Processed Through USPS Facility

ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 

October 27, 2023, 11:01 am

Origin Post is Preparing Shipment

 

Processed Through Facility

ROISSY COURRIER INTERNATIONAL, FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 6:25 pm

Processed Through Facility

ROISSY COURRIER INTERNATIONAL, FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 5:25 pm

Acceptance

FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 4:25 pm

So it was stuck in "ISC New York" -- which I understand really means being in the custody of US Customs rather than the USPS itself -- for 26 days, with no updates and no notice or other information received. And there is no longer, as there used to be, a way of contacting Customs by email to ask about the status of a package. I  filed a missing mail search request anyway, 17 days into the delay, just in case it might do some good. I wrote to Carthago to see if M. Mansouri could do anything, and he told me to be patient, but that he would file a claim if the package didn't arrive within the next couple of weeks.

Nine days after I filed the missing mail request, the package was finally delivered. Again, no explanation for the delay, and nothing on (or inside) the envelope to indicate the reason, or even suggesting that the envelope was opened. So I'll never know why. During the same period, I received another package from a French dealer with no Customs delays at all.

Anyway, I'm very happy I finally received the two sestertii, which look even more similar to me in hand than in the dealer's photos; I don't doubt what he told me about their being from the same hoard.

Here are my writeups.

Severus Alexander AE (Orichalcum) Sestertius, AD 232*, Rome Mint. Obv. Laureate bust right with slight drapery on left shoulder, IMP SEV ALE – XANDER AVG / Rev. Victory standing right, left foot raised to rest on helmet, inscribing VOT / X in two lines on shield set on trunk of palm tree, VICTORIA AVGVSTI; S – C [Senatus Consulto] across lower fields. 33 mm., 21.95 g. RIC IV-2 616, BMCRE VI 643, Sear RCV III 8021, Cohen 567. Purchased 22 Oct. 2023 from Carthago Numismatics (Kefi Mansouri), L'Isle Adam, Ile de France, France; ex Tunisian hoard.*

 Dealer photo:

My attempt:

*The AD 232 date appears to be based on an assumption that the type was issued to commemorate the decennial of Severus Alexander’s reign, as well as to celebrate the initial victories in the campaign against Sassanian Empire.

Philip II, Augustus (son of Philip I) AE Sestertius, AD 247-248 (Rome Mint). Obv. Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust of Philip II right, seen from front, IMP M IVL PHILIPPVS AVG / Rev. Philip I and Philip II seated left on curule chairs, side by side, extending right hands, with Philip I, nearest viewer, holding short scepter downwards in left hand, LIBERALITAS AVGG III; in exergue, S C [Senatus Consulto]. 30 mm., 17.53 g. RIC IV-3 267(a), Sear RCV III 9279 (ill. p. 188), Cohen 18. Purchased 22 Oct. 2023 from Carthago Numismatics (Kefi Mansouri), L'Isle Adam, Ile de France, France; ex Tunisian hoard.

Dealer photo:

My attempt:

So all's well that ends well, but I will try to remember in the future not to make the same mistake again!

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by DonnaML

[robinjojo]

5 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

How many times does something like this have to happen before I learn my lesson about what invariably happens when I tempt fate by posting photos of new purchases -- especially from Europe -- right after I buy them, without waiting for their arrival? At least this time there was finally a happy ending, despite the package being mysteriously stuck in US Customs for more than three weeks! Here's the tracking history:

Delivered

Delivered, Left with Individual

NEW YORK, NY 1----

November 22, 2023, 1:30 pm

Out for Delivery

NEW YORK, NY 1---- 

November 22, 2023, 8:02 am

Arrived at Post Office

NEW YORK, NY 1----

November 22, 2023, 7:51 am

Arrived at USPS Facility

NEW YORK, NY 1---- 

November 22, 2023, 7:12 am

Departed USPS Regional Facility

NEW YORK NY DISTRIBUTION CENTER 

November 22, 2023, 6:09 am

Arrived at USPS Regional Destination Facility

NEW YORK NY DISTRIBUTION CENTER 

November 22, 2023, 3:50 am

Missing Mail Search Request Initiated, Missing Mail Search Request ID XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

November 13, 2023, 3:23 pm

Inbound Into Customs

 

Processed Through USPS Facility

ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS) 

October 27, 2023, 11:01 am

Origin Post is Preparing Shipment

 

Processed Through Facility

ROISSY COURRIER INTERNATIONAL, FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 6:25 pm

Processed Through Facility

ROISSY COURRIER INTERNATIONAL, FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 5:25 pm

Acceptance

FRANCE

October 25, 2023, 4:25 pm

So it was stuck in "ISC New York" -- which I understand really means being in the custody of US Customs rather than the USPS itself -- for 26 days, with no updates and no notice or other information received. And there is no longer, as there used to be, a way of contacting Customs by email to ask about the status of a package. I  filed a missing mail search request anyway, 17 days into the delay, just in case it might do some good. I wrote to Carthago to see if M. Mansouri could do anything, and he told me to be patient, but that he would file a claim if the package didn't arrive within the next couple of weeks.

Nine days after I filed the missing mail request, the package was finally delivered. Again, no explanation for the delay, and nothing on (or inside) the envelope to indicate the reason, or even suggesting that the envelope was opened. So I'll never know why. During the same period, I received another package from a French dealer with no Customs delays at all.

Anyway, I'm very happy I finally received the two sestertii, which look even more similar to me in hand than in the dealer's photos; I don't doubt what he told me about their being from the same hoard.

Here are my writeups.

Severus Alexander AE (Orichalcum) Sestertius, AD 232*, Rome Mint. Obv. Laureate bust right with slight drapery on left shoulder, IMP SEV ALE – XANDER AVG / Rev. Victory standing right, left foot raised to rest on helmet, inscribing VOT / X in two lines on shield set on trunk of palm tree, VICTORIA AVGVSTI; S – C [Senatus Consulto] across lower fields. 33 mm., 21.95 g. RIC IV-2 616, BMCRE VI 643, Sear RCV III 8021, Cohen 567. Purchased 22 Oct. 2023 from Carthago Numismatics (Kefi Mansouri), L'Isle Adam, Ile de France, France; ex Tunisian hoard.*

 Dealer photo:

My attempt:

*The AD 232 date appears to be based on an assumption that the type was Issued to commemorate the decennial of Severus Alexander’s reign, as well as to celebrate the initial victories in the campaign against Sassanian Empire.

Philip II, Augustus (son of Philip I) AE Sestertius, AD 247-248 (Rome Mint). Obv. Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust of Philip II right, seen from front, IMP M IVL PHILIPPVS AVG / Rev. Philip I and Philip II seated left on curule chairs, side by side, extending right hands, with Philip I, nearest viewer, holding short scepter downwards in left hand, LIBERALITAS AVGG III; in exergue, S C [Senatus Consulto]. 30 mm., 17.53 g. RIC IV-3 267(a), Sear RCV III 9279 (ill. p. 188), Cohen 18. Purchased 22 Oct. 2023 from Carthago Numismatics (Kefi Mansouri), L'Isle Adam, Ile de France, France; ex Tunisian hoard.

Dealer photo:

My attempt:

So all's well that ends well, but I will try to remember in the future not to make the same mistake again!

 

 

I'm glad that the saga finally ended for you.  The coins are very nice.

One almost has a feeling of powerlessness in these situations, a feeling that often accompanies attempts dealing with bureaucracy and processes that are essentially in a black box, especially with US Customs.

For myself, I ordered three coins from Israel on July 3rd.  They never made it out of the country as far as I can determine.  I was able to obtain a refund through PayPal.

[DonnaML]

12 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

I'm glad that the saga finally ended for you.  The coins are very nice.

One almost has a feeling of powerlessness in these situations, a feeling that often accompanies attempts dealing with bureaucracy and processes that are essentially in a black box, especially with US Customs.

For myself, I ordered three coins from Israel on July 3rd.  They never made it out of the country as far as I can determine.  I was able to obtain a refund through PayPal.

Did the dealer obtain the necessary export permits? If so, I don't get what happened. Another mystery!

Edited November 24, 2023 by DonnaML

[robinjojo]

20 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Did the dealer obtain the necessary export permits? If so, I don't get what happened. Another mystery!

It's strange, in a way.  On September 19th a tracking number was provided by the seller.  However, numerous checks with the Israel Post tracking did not turn up this number.  I contacted the seller and was told that an error was made with the tracking number, but then I was not given the corrected number. The seller promised to get back to me with updates, but never really did.  This is a shame, since he was very reliable in the past.

All of this occurred during the unrest, a chaotic situation I assume, especially for Israel Post, which has a history of being understaffed and using outdated technology.  They were in the process of being privatized, something that I view with a good degree of skepticism.  I initiated a refund request with PayPal in late September.  Then the war started.  I'm glad to get the refund, but feel very badly about the whole situation over there.  As far as I know there is no international shipping right now from Israel, for obvious reasons.