eligri Posted October 14, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 14, 2023 Hi! Ended up buying this owl for 240€ after fees. Was recently brought to attention that the other owl in the auction might be a forgery, and the same people suspected mine might be as well. They could not say with full certainty, but did point out some red flags which I fully agreed with. I did however also notice a lot of the pictures from the auction were over exposed. So now I am wondering if this coin actually is a forgery, or just if the picture is bad. I do have the ability to cancel the lot, but would certainly prefer not doing so (doubt I can get one that is decent like this one within my 250€ budget). But obviously if it is a forgery, I certainly would want to cancel the lot. Any input that can be provided here? One thing that was pointed out is that the "berry" is connected to the leaf, when it should be separate. I have however seen authentic copies that have this happened to them, albeit not many. Thanks a bunch! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 Hello @eligri and welcome to the Forum. Nothing about that coin immediately says "fake" in my mind, but I am not an expert by any means. I'm sure you'll get some good valuable opinions from the members here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayAg47 Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 15, 2023 I don't like the look of it, especially how smooth the leaves look inside the incuse. When in fact it should be the most crisp element protected from wear by the incuse. Also having a test cut doesn't guarantee authenticity. Forgers, both ancient and modern are creative. Look at this fourree owl that was already made with a test cut! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eligri Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 15, 2023 Yeah, I also reacted heavily on those leaves. As did others. But many also said it didn't look obviously fake. So now I'm stuck in a hard spot. 25€ shipping, so maybe worth that risk. Unless it is extremely unlikely that it is authentic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eligri Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 15, 2023 Sad day! This has now been proven to be a fake. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9174168 Exact match to the coin 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 @eligri the possible reason for the small number of replies in explanation is it can be dangerous for collectors to announce why a coin looks bad. Especially to someone new to them such as you. Counterfeiters of course use critiques of their work to refine it. While the photography on that auction is terrible, and not of itself enough to cause much additional concern aside from the fact it's easier to judge a coin with good photography, I'd be cautious. There's extensive information on owl forgeries elsewhere on the internet too. Your search is made much easier by the limiting additions of the test cut and countermark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 15, 2023 This coin is Rönesans Salzgitter GmbH Auktion 5 Lot 1, 16,41g https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=7239&lot=1 A twin has been in Aquila Numismatics Auction 7 Lot 68, this auction was full with owl cast fakes, the picture of this one and descrption has been replaced with another coin. Cast owls were lots 68-103, exception lot 78 (here it is and was not clear if fake or not). Most of them have been replaced later with other coins. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 I don't like the looks of it. There are at least three reasons I wouldn't buy it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted October 15, 2023 · Patron Share Posted October 15, 2023 ...lQQks ok to me...i see small cracks from hammering...but i've been fooled b4...might be one to send to David Sear or NGC for a expert opinion since you got it quite reasonably...:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 It seems to be this coin sold by Leu. But suddenly more worn... 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eligri Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 15, 2023 It was a forgery! Tried posting earlier, but comment appears to be stuck. The original coin has been found online, and this is a cast of it. @Nemo did they send the buyers new, authentic, coins? Or did they just cover up their mistake afterwards and cancel all bids? 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eligri Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted October 15, 2023 4 hours ago, eligri said: Sad day! This has now been proven to be a fake. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9174168 Exact match to the coin Now the post got approved 🙂 There is a link to the one this was a cast of. Would have loved an owl, but guess I will have to just be happy I found out before paying 😞 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 In case it looks like we are all drunk these posts came out in random order for different people. No idea why! For example John Conduitt's post was well before Nemo's. Ditto Ominus'. At least for me. @eligri I'm sorry and wish you better luck - sometimes Roma and Leu sell dozens and dozens of this type at once at auction and you can sometimes get a decent one for not much more than you would have paid, just from sheer weight of numbers being sold. I'd especially look for their non-feature auctions where you may have more success. I'm sorry to repeat this if you are aware, but there's a huge hoard being sold off at the moment which accounts for some of the huge numbers being sold. No-one really knows how many are left (there are photos of it, and if they (photos) are not faked, the hoard is staggeringly large) but it seems there are more still being fed to the market. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 Sorry to hear @eligri but at least you found out before having to go through the hassle of a return. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejewk Posted October 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 hours ago, eligri said: It was a forgery! Tried posting earlier, but comment appears to be stuck. The original coin has been found online, and this is a cast of it. @Nemo did they send the buyers new, authentic, coins? Or did they just cover up their mistake afterwards and cancel all bids? I commented on it having good eye appeal on Reddit eligri, I should have held my tongue about a type I know little about. My apologies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted October 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2023 What in the world happened with the order of posts? As @Deinomenid pointed out, we all look like abunch of nuts. Any idea what happened @Restitutor The responses are not in the order that we responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted October 16, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) It seems to me that the owl sold by Leu Numismatik was likely the "seed" coin to make a cast. There's no doubt in my mind that the OP owl is a fairly good quality cast of the Leu coin. One aspect with cast coins, in addition to mushy detail, is the often faint and filled cracks along the edge of the OP coin. Cracks should be sharp and deep, depending on the size and nature of the crack. Casts simply cannot replicate them with any degree of accuracy. Of course these cracks can sometimes be filled with deposits, including horn silver, but the outline of the crack should be sharp and angular. Also there's a pin scratch to the left of the owl on the OP coin, someone must have had suspicions about its legitimacy in the past. Thanks for the thread! Edited October 16, 2023 by robinjojo 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor KenDorney Posted October 20, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 20, 2023 The OP photo is a really good example of a cast coin with artificially toned surfaces. Fakes like these often have very similar toning, an odd darker grey that just looks 'off'. Details are soft and appears a casting seam on the side (but might not be). Hope you can send it back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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