Portraits of the Diadochi

[I_v_a_n]

13 hours ago, Spargrodan said:

lifetime version and Philip II.

This is not an easy goal for lifetime Philipp II in both, gold or silver... but, done 😃

 

Edited April 4 by I_v_a_n

[Spargrodan]

4 hours ago, I_v_a_n said:

Beautiful tets @Spargrodan, congratulations!

I have a tetradrachm from Babylon attributed by CNG as Struck under Archon, Dokimos, or Seleukos I, circa 323-318/7 BC.

Thanks @I_v_a_n not bad yourself fantastic collection of coins, the Philip II is stunning! Well if I can find an elephant type for Ptolemy for a good price the I might as well just go for it. 🙂 I still think that I want to have his actual head though, it fits better into the collection I want to create, but with time maybe booth is possible.

Also Lysimachos tets are always amazing, I guess that's why they choose to portay the same motive on the newer 100 drachmes before switching to Euro. I remmber these coins from several vacation trips to the greek islands as a kid.

Picture from NGC: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/greece-100-drachmes-km-159-1990-2000-cuid-1119747-duid-1329497

Edited April 4 by Spargrodan

[kirispupis]

18 hours ago, Spargrodan said:

Today Antigonos arrived maybe even better than the Kassander I got yesterday. Two diadochi down and "3" (will be more with time I think 🙃) more to go, I'm thinking of an elephant type for Seleukos those are very pricy though, portrait of Ptolemy for Ptolemy (I love the elephant head but I think the portrait is a better representation and also much cheaper and easier to find) and Alexander with horn for Lysimachus. Also would like to add Demetrios Poliorketes and Antipater. After that maybe Alexander himself with a lifetime version and Philip II. But I'm not in a rush so will wait for specimens that I like.

Another beautiful tet!

For Seleukos, I debated hard between the Victory type and the elephant biga. Both are important for numismatic reasons. I decided for the elephant biga simply because I loved that type more, though if I see a decently priced Victory type some day I'll grab it.

Seleukos I Nikator
Tetradrachm (Silver, 26 mm, 17.08 g, 8 h)
Susa, circa 296/5-281.
Laureate head of Zeus to right. Rev. BAΣIΛEΩΣ / ΣEΛEΥKOΥ Athena, brandishing spear overhead in her right hand and holding shield in her left, standing right in quadriga of elephants moving to right; above to right, spearhead; before elephants, monogram of MΩ. SC 177.2. 

 

For Ptolemy I, I just had to go for the elephant headdress. Besides being my favorite portrait of Alexander (even over that of Lysimachos), it recalls the Battle of the Hydaspes, perhaps the most brutal of Alexander's conflicts, and reminds everyone that Ptolemy absconded with Alexander's body to place him in Alexandria. I got very lucky with my example, since it languished for some time at a VCoins seller so I didn't have to contend at auction, and its provenance was later discovered by a member of this forum.

Ptolemy I
311-305 BCE
Alexandria
27.5 mm 14.6g 1h
Avers : Buste cornu et diadémé d'Alexandre le Grand sous les traits de Zeus-Ammon à droite, coiffé de la dépouille d'éléphant avec l'égide.
Revers : Athéna Promachos ou Alkidemos marchant à droite, brandissant une javeline de la main droite et tenant un bouclier de la gauche ; dans le champ à gauche, un casque corinthien, un monogramme et un aigle sur un foudre tourné à droite.
Sv.162 (37 ex) - Cop.29 - GC.7750 var. - BMC.- - MP.6
Ex Robert J. Myers Auction 12, lot 291 (December 4, 1975)

 

Another possibility for Ptolemy I are the issues from Memphis. These are widely discussed based on the tie-in with Egyptian mythology and have been argued to be the most beautiful of Alexander's tets. I picked this one up at a great discount due to the chip. As you can see, I have a number of coins that I find very beautiful but were passed over by perfectionists due to a historical blemish.

Egypt, Ptolemy I as satrap
with name and types of Alexander III
Memphis, c. 323/2 BCE
AR Tetradrachm, 16.09g
bv: Head of young Herakles r. wearing lionskin headdress.
Rx: AΛEΞANΔPoY Zeus seated l. holding eagle and scepter, in l. field, head of Amun-Ra (as ram) r., wearing double-plume crown, monogram under throne
CPE-4, Price-3964
Ex NFA

 

In terms of a portrait of Ptolemy I, I picked it up in a Ptolemy II, who finished the Pharos and the Library of Alexandria. The two types are nearly identical in style.

Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, Ptolemy II Philadelphos
AR Tetradrachm. Tyre, dated RY 30 = 256/5 BCE
14.01g, 25mm, 12h.
Diademed head of Ptolemy I to right, wearing aegis around neck / ΠΤΟΛEΜΑΙOΥ [BAΣΙΛEΩΣ], eagle standing to left; monogram of Tyre above club to left; Λ (date) above monogram to right; A between legs.
CPE 577; Svoronos 657; SNG Copenhagen 488; DCA 20
Ex collection of R. N. Draskowski;
Ex Ephesus Numismatics, North Carolina, USA

[Spargrodan]

On 4/4/2024 at 5:21 PM, kirispupis said:

Another beautiful tet!

For Seleukos, I debated hard between the Victory type and the elephant biga. Both are important for numismatic reasons. I decided for the elephant biga simply because I loved that type more, though if I see a decently priced Victory type some day I'll grab it.

Seleukos I Nikator
Tetradrachm (Silver, 26 mm, 17.08 g, 8 h)
Susa, circa 296/5-281.
Laureate head of Zeus to right. Rev. BAΣIΛEΩΣ / ΣEΛEΥKOΥ Athena, brandishing spear overhead in her right hand and holding shield in her left, standing right in quadriga of elephants moving to right; above to right, spearhead; before elephants, monogram of MΩ. SC 177.2. 

 

For Ptolemy I, I just had to go for the elephant headdress. Besides being my favorite portrait of Alexander (even over that of Lysimachos), it recalls the Battle of the Hydaspes, perhaps the most brutal of Alexander's conflicts, and reminds everyone that Ptolemy absconded with Alexander's body to place him in Alexandria. I got very lucky with my example, since it languished for some time at a VCoins seller so I didn't have to contend at auction, and its provenance was later discovered by a member of this forum.

Ptolemy I
311-305 BCE
Alexandria
27.5 mm 14.6g 1h
Avers : Buste cornu et diadémé d'Alexandre le Grand sous les traits de Zeus-Ammon à droite, coiffé de la dépouille d'éléphant avec l'égide.
Revers : Athéna Promachos ou Alkidemos marchant à droite, brandissant une javeline de la main droite et tenant un bouclier de la gauche ; dans le champ à gauche, un casque corinthien, un monogramme et un aigle sur un foudre tourné à droite.
Sv.162 (37 ex) - Cop.29 - GC.7750 var. - BMC.- - MP.6
Ex Robert J. Myers Auction 12, lot 291 (December 4, 1975)

 

Another possibility for Ptolemy I are the issues from Memphis. These are widely discussed based on the tie-in with Egyptian mythology and have been argued to be the most beautiful of Alexander's tets. I picked this one up at a great discount due to the chip. As you can see, I have a number of coins that I find very beautiful but were passed over by perfectionists due to a historical blemish.

Egypt, Ptolemy I as satrap
with name and types of Alexander III
Memphis, c. 323/2 BCE
AR Tetradrachm, 16.09g
bv: Head of young Herakles r. wearing lionskin headdress.
Rx: AΛEΞANΔPoY Zeus seated l. holding eagle and scepter, in l. field, head of Amun-Ra (as ram) r., wearing double-plume crown, monogram under throne
CPE-4, Price-3964
Ex NFA

 

In terms of a portrait of Ptolemy I, I picked it up in a Ptolemy II, who finished the Pharos and the Library of Alexandria. The two types are nearly identical in style.

Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, Ptolemy II Philadelphos
AR Tetradrachm. Tyre, dated RY 30 = 256/5 BCE
14.01g, 25mm, 12h.
Diademed head of Ptolemy I to right, wearing aegis around neck / ΠΤΟΛEΜΑΙOΥ [BAΣΙΛEΩΣ], eagle standing to left; monogram of Tyre above club to left; Λ (date) above monogram to right; A between legs.
CPE 577; Svoronos 657; SNG Copenhagen 488; DCA 20
Ex collection of R. N. Draskowski;
Ex Ephesus Numismatics, North Carolina, USA

Thanks @kirispupis it's a good start at least, will see how I will build it from here.

 

I have also been thinking of these two versions for Seleukos but I'm also leaning towards the elephant biga type as well, reasons, well just for the estetics really.

Your Ptolemy is gorgeus, I guess the stamp on the chin made it so perfectionists didn't want to pick it up? But great story and luck with the provinence found later. Also really interesting type with the Amon Ra head will look out for them. When it comes to blemishes etc I have no problems as long as they are part of the history of the coin and not too disturbing.  I've been arguing with myself at times if a should go for a finer condition coin vs a more worn but more appealing one. In the end I realized for me it's always better to go with what is most appealing. Even if a coin is in a better condition I think appeals trumphs it all. A Ptolemy II is also a good suggestion which I've been thinking of too, as he minted them with the porttrait of the father.

[NewStyleKing]

But the only diadochi portrait is Ptolemy l , Seleucus is doubtful, Eumenes no,Antigonus no, Lysimachus no. Antipater no, Craterus no, Polyperchon no !  Have I missed one?  Coins minted by them or thought to be yeah, but maybe not Eumenes or Polyperchon, and Philip ll was never really a Diadochi, but no portrait,. 

Edited April 6 by NewStyleKing

[Alegandron]

PTOLEMY was the Greatest of the Diadochi!


Egypt Ptolemy I Soter Tet Delta bankers marks CELATOR DELTA called out



Seleukid Seleukos I 312-280 BCE AR Tet 14.46g Seleucia on Tigris. Zeus - Athena driving a quadriga of 4 horned elephants SC 130


Thrace -Lysimachos AR drachm 305-281 BCE R Alexander head-Ammon horns - rev Lysimachos Athena

[Alegandron]

Kassander was a real jerk.

Lion

Kassander
(316-297 BC).
Æ (15mm, 3.08g, 3h). Pella
Pella or Amphipolis, before 306 BC.
Obv: Head of Herakles r., wearing lion skin. R
Rev: Lion reclining r.
Ref: SNG Alpha Bank 881; SNG Copenhagen 1140.
Green patina, VF – Good VF

Horse Prancing

Makedon
AE 20
Kassander 319-297 BCE
Herakles 
Horse prancing, monogram
Sear 6754 var SNG Cop 1142

another Horse…


Makedonon 
Kassander 319-297 BCE
AE 20 
Herakles in lion skin
Youth on Horse prancing, monogram below horse
Ref: Sear 6754 var SNG Cop 1142

[Alegandron]

ANTIGONOS I

Makedon Antigonos I Monopthalmus 319-305 BC AR Drachm Magnesia and Maeandrum Mint 3-9g 16-5mm Herakles lion-Zeus
 

PHILIP III & ALEXANDER IV

Makedonwn
Philip III Arrhedaeus & Alexander IV, 323-317 BCE
AR Drachm, 2.595g, maximum diameter 13.0mm, die axis 270o
Amphipolis mint
Obv: diademed head of of Apollo right
Rev: ΦIΛIΠΠOY, naked youth pacing right on horseback, palm frond in right, reins in left, E in wreath below
Ref: Le Rider p. 123, pl. 45, 31 - 32; SNG ANS 621, SNG Cop -, SNG Alpha Bank -,
Comments: VF, struck with worn dies, porous, bumps and scratches very rare
EX: ForumAncientCoins May-2016

[Alegandron]

Some PRE-Diadochi…the Guys who started it all.

And, here is one of my Lifetime GREATEST, followed by a couple Lifetime Greats


Kingdom of Makedon
Philip II 382-336 BCE (Reign 359-336 BCE)
AR Tetradrachm.
Mint: Pella, lifetime issue, struck circa 353-349 BC.
25 mm. 14.4 g
Obv: Laureate head of Zeus right Rev: ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ,
Rev: Philip on horseback left, wearing kausia and raising right hand; spearhead below, star below horse's raised foreleg.
Le Rider 102 (D58/R82); SNG ANS 357


Kingdom of Makedonon
Alexander III (MEGAS) 336-323 BCE
AR Tetradrachm
24.5mm, 16.9g
Lifetime Issue
Obv: Herakles
Rev: Zeus on big-ball throne, holding Eagle, staff; very faint trident in field l


BABALONIA, Babylon
AR Tetradrachm / Stater (or Dishekel)
Minted ca. 323-328 B.C.
24 mm, 16.3g
Obv: Ba’al seated left holding scepter
Rev: Lion walking left, control mark Г above. (Control mark was minted during Alexander III Lifetime)
Ref: Ref: BMC Arabia XXII no.1
Comment: "This type was discussed by Martin Price in his article "Circulation at Babylon in 323 BC," in the book "Mnemata: Papers in Memory of Nancy M. Waggoner." He asserts that a reengraved die clearly shows the "lion staters" with gamma followed the ones with delta. "They are probably shekels on the local standard." (page 67). He dates them to the lifetime of Alexander, because they were present in a hoard with deposition dated to 323/2. He doesn't give the earliest possible date explicitly, but mentions that Mazaeus was governor until 328 and issued coins, so I infer Price would put them at or after 328. So you can say "Struck 323 or before, under Alexander the Great."

[Spargrodan]

These are all wonderfull coins @Alegandron my favourite of the bounch is the lifetime Philip, absolutely stunning!

[Spargrodan]

On 4/6/2024 at 7:55 PM, NewStyleKing said:

But the only diadochi portrait is Ptolemy l , Seleucus is doubtful, Eumenes no,Antigonus no, Lysimachus no. Antipater no, Craterus no, Polyperchon no !  Have I missed one?  Coins minted by them or thought to be yeah, but maybe not Eumenes or Polyperchon, and Philip ll was never really a Diadochi, but no portrait,. 

@NewStyleKing you're completely correct, so the closest we can get is to get a coin they might have minted. It's mainly my fault for the confusion with the title of the thread and derailing into coins minted by these characters but not having their portraits.

Edited April 26 by Spargrodan

[kirispupis]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:55 AM, NewStyleKing said:

But the only diadochi portrait is Ptolemy l , Seleucus is doubtful, Eumenes no,Antigonus no, Lysimachus no. Antipater no, Craterus no, Polyperchon no !  Have I missed one?  Coins minted by them or thought to be yeah, but maybe not Eumenes or Polyperchon, and Philip ll was never really a Diadochi, but no portrait,. 

Some of these are true, but not others. See my original post. Demetrios Poliorketes minted coins with his own portrait during his lifetime. It's uncertain whether the Victory coins from Seleukos bear his portrait, but he did mint others when he was older, and his son minted coins with his portrait. For Lysimachos, there are some uncommon bronzes with his portrait. Finally, Philetairos minted coins during his own lifetime with his portrait, and these were continued down the line.

[NewStyleKing]

Yeah, But Demetrius is not a Diadochi, son of yeah!  In the last few years lots of good quality fresh coins have appeared, particularly the Poseidon type with Demetrius sprouting horns, which I doubt he had in real life!

Philetairos not a diadochi, the coins of this eunuch "founder" of the fascinating Attalid dynasty are riddled with curiosities, Eumenes ll portrait coins, Syros coins, Aristonikos, Cistaphores, Dionysiac artists-techni and the whole who supplied the money for Myrina and Kyme and when and where and who started the fashion for lovely wreath and civic coinages of the "Great transformation" These are the best coins ever and astoundingly enough include, ta ra The Athens Newstyle! . The Phileterai  was essentially unravelled by Westmark into Vll groups....OK there are some problems, but generally accepted based on mint marks and hoards, though never seen the paper myself anywhere. Unaware of late Seleukos portraits , I once borrowed Seleucid coins from the Uni library but generally I think it avoided the issue of whose portrait is this and any discussion....although my memory could be bad.

Unaware of Lysimachus ae's totally, I'm a gold and silver man essentially!

 

Edited April 26 by NewStyleKing

[kirispupis]

53 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

Yeah, But Demetrius is not a Diadochi, son of yeah!  In the last few years lots of good quality fresh coins have appeared, particularly the Poseidon type with Demetrius sprouting horns, which I doubt he had in real life!

Philetairos not a diadochi, the coins of this eunuch "founder" of the fascinating Attalid dynasty are riddled with curiosities..

 

The term "Diadochi" is vague since it literally means "successors", so in some sense we're all Diadochi. 🙂 The term is used differently and, as far as we know, they did not carry membership cards.

Under most definitions, Demetrios would have a strong claim. He was proclaimed king at the same time as his father Antigonos and so in kingship was a direct descendent of Alexander.

Philetairos did not deal with Alexander directly as far as we know, but he did deal directly with Antigonos, Lysimachos, and Seleukos, so he at minimum received the Diadochi newsletters.

[Ryro]

13 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

The term "Diadochi" is vague since it literally means "successors", so in some sense we're all Diadochi. 🙂 The term is used differently and, as far as we know, they did not carry membership cards.

It's always a bit awkward when you have to correct a friend, especially in an area that they specialize in. @kirispupis I thought you knew and I was gonna sponsor you and invite you to the next meeting...

[NewStyleKing]

OK! I'll admit Demetrius with a jnr's ticket and Phileterios with an associates one. Certainly Black Craterus's membership card was withdrawn and Ptolomey is suspected of forging his and Seleucus's. No more contenders allowed the books are closed! signed Perdiccas

 

[Alegandron]

5 hours ago, Spargrodan said:

These are all wonderfull coins @Alegandron my favourite of the bounch is the lifetime Philip, absolutely stunning!

Thank you.  I have always liked this coin, and really admire this man's history.  All eyes are on Alexander, but Philip II was cut down early.  He was the one who rebuilt Makedon from prior ruler's tatters, rebuilt their army with innovative tactics and sarissa technology, re-organized the cavalry and its effective tactics, created wealth through the silver mines, imposed a hegemony over Greece through diplomacy and might, built up an advisory staff and military leadership that was very effective.  Alexander, albeit great, inherited all of these assets...  To me, Philip II was the Greatest.  Alexander was well educated and learned well as to his father's teachings, and executed the plans WELL.

[Spargrodan]

1 hour ago, Alegandron said:

Thank you.  I have always liked this coin, and really admire this man's history.  All eyes are on Alexander, but Philip II was cut down early.  He was the one who rebuilt Makedon from prior ruler's tatters, rebuilt their army with innovative tactics and sarissa technology, re-organized the cavalry and its effective tactics, created wealth through the silver mines, imposed a hegemony over Greece through diplomacy and might, built up an advisory staff and military leadership that was very effective.  Alexander, albeit great, inherited all of these assets...  To me, Philip II was the Greatest.  Alexander was well educated and learned well as to his father's teachings, and executed the plans WELL.

Yeah I also think Philip is more interesting than Alexander. If we would think he had lived to start the conquest of Asia himself it's very interesting to imagine how the history would have turned out. Alexander inherited a well organised military machine as well as very good advisors, he was very talented but Philip was the one that made it all possible.

[Alegandron]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:19 AM, Spargrodan said:

Yeah I also think Philip is more interesting than Alexander. If we would think he had lived to start the conquest of Asia himself it's very interesting to imagine how the history would have turned out. Alexander inherited a well organised military machine as well as very good advisors, he was very talented but Philip was the one that made it all possible.

Very much agreed. Curious if Philip would had the same success, going as far as the Hydespes, as Alexander. And, perhaps Philip would had paused before going to, or not going to India after defeating Darius III. Would he been able to consolidate an enduring Makedonwn Empire? 

[Spargrodan]

39 minutes ago, Alegandron said:

Very much agreed. Curious if Philip would had the same success, going as far as the Hydespes, as Alexander. And, perhaps Philip would had paused before going to, or not going to India after defeating Darius III. Would he been able to consolidate an enduring Makedonwn Empire? 

We will never know but Philip has already shown his skills as a statesman. Would Alexander been as skilled, maybe, we will never know. But somehow I think Philip would have been more conservative and try to strengthen the conquered territories.

[Deinomenid]

29 minutes ago, Spargrodan said:

Philip would have been more conservative

It's  entirely possible, and  I'm no Demosthenes,  though arguments against  include the recentish rewriting of the success of managing relations with the immediate neighbour Paeonia ( in short presumed vassal state was far from it, despite the legend of Ariston with the/a conclusion he couldn't really manage even local states well), but most particularly I invoke the ~old phrase, "to appeal from Philip drunk to  Philip sober" just to remind how extremely fond of the sauce he was and  how  his decisions were reportedly  compromised even when ruling a far smaller area.

 

[Anaximander]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:13 PM, kirispupis said:

In terms of the question, here's what I would go for.
Ptolemy I Soter - not only was he a major player, but his coinage with Alexander in elephant headdress is gorgeous
Seleukos I Nikator - as you mention he had the largest empire, but his coinage is also extremely interesting
Demetrios I Poliorketes - the issue with his father Antigonos is he produced very little coinage in his own name (and I've yet to see one of those for sale and couldn't afford it if one ever appeared). However, the coinage of Demetrios is fascinating.
Lysimachos - again, his coinage is an absolute classic between the portrait of Alexander and the reverse which strongly influenced coinage through today

The last one is tough. You can see the full list of those I have here. The top choices and their reasoning:
Kassander - the coinage in his name is entirely bronze, but there are some interesting issues. His coinage is definitely cheaper than any of the above.
Philip II - this is going the other way, of course, but besides being very interesting it's nice to go back to where it all started
Antipater - these are all "types of Alexander", but you probably want one of Alexander's famous tets in there. Unless you add a lifetime tet, the top two choices would be Antipater and Antigonos.

I will call and raise (tosses a coin of Philip III, struck by Perdikkas, onto the table, and pockets a gold stater of Philip II).

[kirispupis]

41 minutes ago, Anaximander said:

I will call and raise (tosses a coin of Philip III, struck by Perdikkas, onto the table, and pockets a gold stater of Philip II).

Definitely jealous of the winged Nike from Demetrios! All are gorgeous coins.

But, if you want to make a game of it, here's my page with 123 participants represented by coins from the time of Philip II, Alexander III, and the Diadochi. 🙂

And here are my coins from 346 cities who minted roughly during that same period (there are more cities on the page, but not all are from that period/area).

[AETHER]

Shower thoughts..

Is there a line in the sand to determine Alexander's Diadochi? Is it the initial successors? The successors kids?  Julius Caesar?  

Are the Diadochi coinage valid by actual portrait or "in image off? Or  Valid by name on the coinage? Or is dating sufficient enough? (while it bears Alexanders name (and maybe image), but struck in the year and region of some current leader)

I feel like if this was my collecting area,  I would be content with, 1. Image or in image off 2. Name on coinage .. for example, I would consider Kassander's Bronze coinage enough for me, but very hesitant of the silver. I am not sure I would fully trust the suggested mint or dating even though it probably is. If that makes sense.

And to add to the thread and my thought .. an example of my latest coin

Kingdom of Macedon Demetrios I Poliorketes AR Tetradrachm 306-283 BC

 In the name and types of Alexander III (the Great) of Macedon. Struck in Tyre mint,  circa 290-286 BC. Price 3534A

 

For the coin above, is dating and mint sufficient enough? is it accurate? (or would you like the actual portrait and name coin) is the son of Antigonus I, close enough to consider being a part of the diadochi for you? 

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:09 PM by AETHER

[kirispupis]

29 minutes ago, AETHER said:

Is there a line in the sand to determine Alexander's Diadochi? Is it the initial successors? The successors kids?  Julius Caesar?  

 

Personally, I've titled my collection People of Philip II, Alexander III, and the Era of the Diadochi very carefully because there is no set definition of who was a Diadochi. The term literally means "successors", so as I noted before we're all technically Diadochi. The following are the guidelines I've devised for my own collection:

• Should have been active sometime between Philip II and the last leaders who directly interacted with a member of Alexander the Great's entourage.
• Should have had sufficient power to affect minting decisions. They may have been required to mint coins in a particular style, but they should have been able to change minting personelle or mint marks.
• Should have been active in the city where the coin was minted during the period of its attribution.
• Must have been mentioned explicitly in the literature
• Alternatively, may have been named on a coin (or a city named after her/him) during his/her lifetime
• Assigning a coin to a city/date range is accomplished through the current literature and research. Occasionally I'll fudge things a bit if there's something I believe they may have missed, or if I feel there's a reasonable chance I'm correct (vs in Academics the argument must be far stronger)

To many of these "rules", I have exceptions, because they're my rules.

IMHO, if you only stick to rulers who were named on coinage, or even worse those who were (and are widely agreed upon) to have been depicted on coinage, you're dealing with just a few coins and that's boring.