Do you have any Barbaric Imitations? How do you research them?

[ComicMan]

Ex: Tom Vossen, Constantius II imitative, no clue where to start with this one but it is very charming.

[DLTcoins]

To begin, I suggest Pierre Bastien (1985), 'Imitations of Roman Bronze Coins, A.D. 318-363', ANS Museum Notes 30, New York, pp. 143-177; pls.41-44. You can read the article or download a copy at the link below. Your coin belongs to what Bastien describes as a "wave" of "epidemic" counterfeiting, largely in Gaul and Britain, that began with the Fel Temp Reparatio reforms, the first c. 348 and another several years later. This "wave" seems to have continued until the coinage was again reformed under Julian c. 361.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391198

Edited January 17, 2023 by DLTcoins

[Parthicus]

Here's a barbarous Constantine I that I quite like:

 

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

I collect barbaric imitations of the Gallic empire (3rd century). Here is a very useful link for them, sorry it’s in French, and some favorites from my collection:

http://www.fredericweber.com/articles/imitations_radiees.htm

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryro]

How dare you ask me such a question!?

 

[Orange Julius]

How about this super cool Nero with a mirrored obverse legend!?

It's an ancient Gallic (maybe?) imitation of the common Victory and shield coins.

It would have the legend:
IMP NERO CAESAR AVG P MAX T P P. (It's there but written backwards, copied directly from an example on to the die without thinking of the resulting coin having the mirrored impression... you can see the ...ESAR AVG P MA...)

[Edessa]

Tetricus II (?), as Caesar. Barbaric imitation, late 3rd century AD. Ӕ Minimi (12mm, 0.70g, 12h). Irregular mint. Obv: No legend; Radiate bust right. Rev: No legend; Pax (?) standing left holding standard. Very Fine for type, nice patina. Ex Warren Esty.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Edessa

[DLTcoins]

18 minutes ago, Edessa said:

Tetricus II (?), as Caesar. Barbaric imitation, late 3rd century AD. Ӕ Minimi (12mm, 0.70g, 12h). Irregular mint. Obv: No legend; Radiate bust right. Rev: No legend; Pax (?) standing left holding standard. Very Fine for type, nice patina. Ex Warren Esty.

 

The beard makes Tetricus I the more likely prototype. Given the short tunic, the reverse figure is almost certainly Virtus. Nice minim!

[Edessa]

11 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

The beard makes Tetricus I the more likely prototype. Given the short tunic, the reverse figure is almost certainly Virtus. Nice minim!

Thanks Dave, that makes sense. 

[arizonarobin]

I love Barbaric imitations.

Here are a two of mine imitating Domna and Septimius from Emesa:

 

[ComicMan]

7 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

To begin, I suggest Pierre Bastien (1985), 'Imitations of Roman Bronze Coins, A.D. 318-363', ANS Museum Notes 30, New York, pp. 143-177; pls.41-44. You can read the article or download a copy at the link below. Your coin belongs to what Bastien describes as a "wave" of "epidemic" counterfeiting, largely in Gaul and Britain, that began with the Fel Temp Reparatio reforms, the first c. 348 and another several years later. This "wave" seems to have continued until the coinage was again reformed under Julian c. 361.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391198

Thanks for the reply, this is exactly what I was looking for! That was an interesting read 😁

6 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

I collect barbaric imitations of the Gallic empire (3rd century). Here is a very useful link for them, sorry it’s in French, and some favorites from my collection:

http://www.fredericweber.com/articles/imitations_radiees.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Damn, those are some interesting coins! Especially since during the Gallic secession the breakaway Empire minted a billion coins and they were still counterfeited like this. I like the portrait and lettering on #1, 2, and 4, but the most interesting one is the Divo Victorinus / Consecratio. I am actually finding only imitations when I google for that type, the official version seems to have been the one with the Eagle. Did they perhaps copy the reverse of an older type?

Thanks for the link, I will see how far I can go with Google Translate.

[ambr0zie]

How about this barbarous VRBS ROMA, where the "moneyers" wanted to save some metal and make a cute little coin, and the little old beginner me was anxiously trying to attribute this "Greek" coin? 

Compared to an official issue

I have only 1 other - a barbarous Tetricus, with a reverse showing an alien (Klingon?) using his station on the starship - probably raising shields. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by ambr0zie

[shanxi]

My ugly Barbarian

Barbarous Radiate, imitating Tetricus I
Obv: …ICVS M / radiate head right
Rev: soldier standing, holding spear, C
AE, 1.96g, 17mm
Ref.: Cf. RIC 5b, p.411,148 ?

[ComicMan]

6 hours ago, Ryro said:

How dare you ask me such a question!?

 

I had no idea, sorry! 😭

6 hours ago, Orange Julius said:

How about this super cool Nero with a mirrored obverse legend!?

It's an ancient Gallic (maybe?) imitation of the common Victory and shield coins.

It would have the legend:
IMP NERO CAESAR AVG P MAX T P P. (It's there but written backwards, copied directly from an example on to the die without thinking of the resulting coin having the mirrored impression... you can see the ...ESAR AVG P MA...)

Damn, that is pretty funny, congrats on the coin!

4 hours ago, arizonarobin said:

I love Barbaric imitations.

Here are a two of mine imitating Domna and Septimius from Emesa:

 

I love these, the heads looks so goofy!

37 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

How about this barbarous VRBS ROMA, where the "moneyers" wanted to save some metal and make a cute little coin, and the little old beginner me was anxiously trying to attribute this "Greek" coin? 

Compared to an official issue

I have only 1 other - a barbarous Tetricus, with a reverse showing an alien (Klingon?) using his station on the starship - probably raising shields. 

That's great, love the weird reverse on the second one and the story about trying to attribute the first!

2 minutes ago, shanxi said:

My ugly Barbarian

Barbarous Radiate, imitating Tetricus I
Obv: …ICVS M / radiate head right
Rev: soldier standing, holding spear, C
AE, 1.96g, 17mm
Ref.: Cf. RIC 5b, p.411,148 ?

Kinda looks like a stick figure Sol on the reverse, no? I guess it could just as well be a soldier with ginormous feet though 😆

[Harry G]

Here are a few of mine!

Imitating Victorinus/Sol

 

Imitating Tetricus II bust left holding spear. I found a die match at auction, and will try and find the link

 

Victorinus imitating INVICTVS (looks more like INVAPAS). Brassy

 

Tetricus I, CONSECRATIO reverse. Nearly looks official

 

Tetricus II "As Cesar". I'm impressed the engraver knew enough Latin to understand "CAES" was short for "CAESAR". Shame he couldn't spell...

 

Tetricus II, SPES AVGG reverse. Possibly as Augustus (looks like C PIV ESV TETRICVS AIVS). Decent style but definitely barbarous

[Al Kowsky]

Some of the best reference material for barbarous imitations has been done in Europe, where numismatists take these coins more seriously. This is no surprise since these coins are scattered all over Europe, sometimes in large hoards. An excellent reference source for barbaric gold coins was authored by Guy Lacam, La fin de L'Empire romain et le monnayage: or en Italie 455-493 (The End of the Roman Empire and the Gold Coinage of Italy :455-493. This study was printed in two large volumes (1107 pages) & copyrighted in 1983. Pictured below are two barbarous gold solidi in my collection; the first coin is a type identified in Lacam's study & the second coin still remains a mystery. 

 

[John Conduitt]

For barbarous coins, you need to work out when and where they were struck. When they were struck is more or less resolved if you can work out who is depicted, but not necessarily. For a long time it was thought barbarous minims were struck in the 5th century, after the fall of the Roman Empire, but now this isn't thought to be the case.

In terms of where, the problem is that very few sellers (or collectors) record where they came from, so their history is lost. I don't buy any barbarous coin without knowing where it was found. The style can point to one area or another (Britain, Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Eastern Europe) but you can't rely on it.

In Britain, there were several phases of 'epidemic' counterfeits, which I think generally matched those in Europe:

- Celtic. Perhaps all Celtic coins could be considered barbaric imitations, but copies of e.g. Claudian bronzes tend to be counted as imitations. Some of these were countermarked, making them official.

Cunobeline Unit, Celtic Trinovantes Tribe, 9-40

Camulodunon (Roman Camulodunum, modern Colchester). Bronze, 14mm, 2.19g. Janiform head; CVNO below. Sow seated right beneath a tree; CAMV on panel below (ABC 2981; S 346; V 2105 ‘Trinovantian W’). This might be a copy of a coin from Aquilia.

- Gallic Empire. There were huge numbers of Gallic Empire imitations made across the Gallic Empire, although the genuine coins are so bad its often hard to tell them apart. From what I've seen, I think the less sophisticated designs came from Britain, the better ones from Gaul.

Tetricus I Barbarous Radiate, 274-280

Imitating Colonia Agrippinensis. Bronze, 13mm, 0.86g. Radiate head left; (IMP TET)RICVS (P F AVG). Salus standing facing, head left; SA(LVS AVGG) (cf RIC V2, 127). From the Whitchurch (Somerset) Hoard.

- Britannic Empire. The first coins of Carausius are so bad it isn't clear if they are official or counterfeit, or a mix.

Carausius Antoninianus, 286

Londinium. Silver, 19mm, 2.32g. Radiate bust right; CARAVSIVS AVG. Pax standing left holding branch and sceptre; PAX AVG (cf RIC 878-91).

- Constantinian (330s-360s). As mentioned already. This may have started with FEL TEMP REPARATIO, or slightly before. Huge hoards have been found with lots of official and barbarous coins mixed together.

Barbarous Imitation of a Commemorative VRBS ROMA, 335-339

East Anglia imitating Lugdunum. Bronze, 14mm, 1.20g. Helmeted and mantled bust of Roma left; VRBS ROMA. She-wolf standing left, head right, suckling the twins Romulus and Remus; two stars above; •PLG (cf RIC VII, 242). Reportedly from the Nether Compton (Dorset) Hoard 1989.

- Magnentius. A continuation of the above phase, but again, the official coinage was so bad it often isn't even possible to tell the difference.

Magnentius Follis, 350-351

Lugdunum (or an imitation). Billon, 20mm, 4.53g. Bust of Magnentius, bare-headed, draped, cuirassed, right, A behind bust; D N MAGNEN-TIVS P F AVG. Magnentius, draped, cuirassed, standing left, holding Victory on globe in right hand and labarum bearing ☧ in left hand; FELICITAS - REI PVBLICAE; mintmark RPLG or RSLG (RIC VIII, 114). Possibly barbarous or semi-official. The style doesn't look official, but it has correct legends. The A in the right reverse field is oddly placed. The coin is also small at 20mm. From the Freckenham (Suffolk) Hoard 1948.

- Julian. There were imitations of siliquae, although I don't think counterfeiting was epidemic at this time.

Julian II Contemporary Imitation Siliqua, 361-363

Imitating Arles. Silver, 16mm, 1.63g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N FL CL IVLIA-NVS P F AVG. VOT X MVLT XX within wreath, dot in medallion at top; CONS in exergue (cf RIC VIII, 312). From the West Norfolk/Grimston Hoard 2018. Portable Antiquities Scheme: NMS-963FF1.

However, in Spain, there were more imitations, which, like most of the other epidemics, related to a coin shortage:

Magnus Maximus Barbarous AE2, 383-388

Spain imitating Lugdunum. Bronze, 22mm, 4.39g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N MIG MA-MVS P F AVG. Emperor standing left, raising kneeling female; REPARATIO M AVGG (restoration of Maximus, instead of the usual REPARATIO REIPVB, restoration of the Republic) (cf RIC IX, 32). Struck in coastal Spain around 400 because of a coin shortage. An intermediary between the official Magnus Maximus coinage and the maiorinae of Maximus of Barcino (Barcelona). Possibly used during Visigothic rule in Barcino around 415.

- Saxon. The collapse of the Roman Empire meant coins disappeared, but they were revived in the 600s when the Saxons copied Roman coins. They copied Constantinian and later coins, but you can tell the difference from the above imitations by the style.

Pale Gold Phase 'Two Emperors' Thrymsa, 645-675

Kent. Gold, 13mm, 1.19g. Diademed and draped bust right; pseudo legend around. Two small busts facing; above, Victory with withs enfolding the figures; pellet to each side of Victory's head (SCBC 767).

Edited January 17, 2023 by John Conduitt

[sunir caM]

I have a few

Magnentius ( great Obverse )

 

Constantine ii ( great Obverse again )

 

Constantine i Sarmatia Devicta ( Reverse retrograde )

 

 

[Tejas]

I'm not a native speaker, but I would distinguish between barbaric imitations and barbarous imitations. 

I would lable barbaric imitation coins produced by barbaric (non-Roman) people outside and inside the Roman Empire for various purposes. Examples include: Taman "Walking-Mars" imitations of the 3rd and 4th century, "Gothic" gold imitations of the 3rd and 4th century, Visigothic imitations of 5th century Gaul or Frankish and Anglo-Saxon imitations of the 6th and 7th centuries. 

In contrast, I would lable barbarous imitations coins produced by Romans inside the Roman Empire, presumably to relieve severe coinage shortages during times of high inflation. Examples include the Gallic Empire imitations. 

• So, according to may classification most of the coins shown above would probably be barbarous imitations, rather than barbaric imitations. I think this is most probably true for the Gallic imitations.
• The Ostrogothic Solidus in the name of Anastasius is neither barbaric and certainly not barbarous and, importantly it is not an imitation. Instead, it is an official Roman mint issue in the name and authority of the ruling emperor and the appropriate mint mark. Theoderic fully acknowledge the superiority of Anastasius, who remained the nominal ruler of Italy and some adjacent territories.
• The Solidus in the name of Zeno, was in my view minted by Merovingian Franks and is thus both barbaric and an imitation, because it was not minted under the authority of Zeno and not by a mint that officially used the mintmark CONOB. 
• The Anglo-Saxon thrymsa may be called a barbaric imitation, but the term barbarian had probably lost its meaning by the time it was made. And, in my view the style is so idiosyncratic that I wouldn't call it an imitation.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Tejas

[maridvnvm]

To answer your questions in turn from my perspective...

Do you have any Barbaric/Barbarous Imitations?

I do and have picked up a vide variety from first century Claudius Ae As, though quite a few Septimius Severus imitations, through Gallic Radiates, FEL TEMP imitations ending with Valentinian II.

How do you research them?

With great difficulty as the majority of the imitations that I have are from periods where very little research appears to have been published.

Here is a very small sample of the imitative types that I have in my collection.

Imitation of Claudius Ae AS 

Obv:- TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP, bare head left
Rev:- CONSTANTIAE AVGVSTI S-C, Constantia, helmeted and in military dress, standing left, holding long spear in left hand
Minted in Rome. A.D. 41-50
Reference:- RIC 95, Cohen 14, BMC 140

The style looks a little crude and the legends lack uniformity though are quite legible. It is also light, weighing in at only 7.85 gms. The die orientation is 180 degrees.

Imitations of Septimius Severus coins from the Rome mint.

Obv:- IMV (sic) CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head right
Rev:- LEG II ADIVT / TR P COS, Legionary eagle between two standards
Barbarous imitation of coins minted in Rome. A.D. 193
Reference:- copies cf RIC 5

Obv:– L SEP SEV PERT AVG IM C P X, Laureate head right
Rev:– MART[I V]IC, Mars standing front, head right, resting right hand on shield set on low base, spear in right hand.
Copies RIC 114

Imitations of Septimius Severus coins from the Eastern mints.

IMP II

Obv:- L SEPT SEV PE-RT AVG IMP I - I or VII-I, laureate head right
Rev:- VICTORIA AVGVSTI, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm.
Ancient imitation which apparently copies the style of Laodicea-ad-Mare

IMP VIII

Obv:– L SEPT SEVE PERT AVG IMP VIII, laureate head right
Rev:– MONE AVG, Moneta standing left, holding scales and cornucopiae
Barbarous copy imitating coins minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 196-197
Reference:– Copies similar to BMC 448 Note

COS II (a pair of coins with an obverse die match)

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEPT ERT AVT COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR SEV-E-R AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in unofficial mint
Reference:– copies (BMCRE 399. RIC IV 428 (S). RSC 749 )

Rev:– IOVL SER ?? AVG, Jupiter?, seated left

Constantius II - AE2 - Barbarous imitation

Obv:– D N CONSTANTIS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
Rev:– FEL TEMT OHIIIRATIO, Helmeted soldier left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield at ground to right. Horseman turns to face the soldier, and reaches his left arm up towards him. He is bare headed.
Minted in Heraclea (G | _ // .SHHA).

[Al Kowsky]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:58 AM, John Conduitt said:

For barbarous coins, you need to work out when and where they were struck. When they were struck is more or less resolved if you can work out who is depicted, but not necessarily. For a long time it was thought barbarous minims were struck in the 5th century, after the fall of the Roman Empire, but now this isn't thought to be the case.

In terms of where, the problem is that very few sellers (or collectors) record where they came from, so their history is lost. I don't buy any barbarous coin without knowing where it was found. The style can point to one area or another (Britain, Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Eastern Europe) but you can't rely on it.

In Britain, there were several phases of 'epidemic' counterfeits, which I think generally matched those in Europe:

- Celtic. Perhaps all Celtic coins could be considered barbaric imitations, but copies of e.g. Claudian bronzes tend to be counted as imitations. Some of these were countermarked, making them official.

Cunobeline Unit, Celtic Trinovantes Tribe, 9-40

Camulodunon (Roman Camulodunum, modern Colchester). Bronze, 14mm, 2.19g. Janiform head; CVNO below. Sow seated right beneath a tree; CAMV on panel below (ABC 2981; S 346; V 2105 ‘Trinovantian W’). This might be a copy of a coin from Aquilia.

- Gallic Empire. There were huge numbers of Gallic Empire imitations made across the Gallic Empire, although the genuine coins are so bad its often hard to tell them apart. From what I've seen, I think the less sophisticated designs came from Britain, the better ones from Gaul.

Tetricus I Barbarous Radiate, 274-280

Imitating Colonia Agrippinensis. Bronze, 13mm, 0.86g. Radiate head left; (IMP TET)RICVS (P F AVG). Salus standing facing, head left; SA(LVS AVGG) (cf RIC V2, 127). From the Whitchurch (Somerset) Hoard.

- Britannic Empire. The first coins of Carausius are so bad it isn't clear if they are official or counterfeit, or a mix.

Carausius Antoninianus, 286

Londinium. Silver, 19mm, 2.32g. Radiate bust right; CARAVSIVS AVG. Pax standing left holding branch and sceptre; PAX AVG (cf RIC 878-91).

- Constantinian (330s-360s). As mentioned already. This may have started with FEL TEMP REPARATIO, or slightly before. Huge hoards have been found with lots of official and barbarous coins mixed together.

Barbarous Imitation of a Commemorative VRBS ROMA, 335-339

East Anglia imitating Lugdunum. Bronze, 14mm, 1.20g. Helmeted and mantled bust of Roma left; VRBS ROMA. She-wolf standing left, head right, suckling the twins Romulus and Remus; two stars above; •PLG (cf RIC VII, 242). Reportedly from the Nether Compton (Dorset) Hoard 1989.

- Magnentius. A continuation of the above phase, but again, the official coinage was so bad it often isn't even possible to tell the difference.

Magnentius Follis, 350-351

Lugdunum (or an imitation). Billon, 20mm, 4.53g. Bust of Magnentius, bare-headed, draped, cuirassed, right, A behind bust; D N MAGNEN-TIVS P F AVG. Magnentius, draped, cuirassed, standing left, holding Victory on globe in right hand and labarum bearing ☧ in left hand; FELICITAS - REI PVBLICAE; mintmark RPLG or RSLG (RIC VIII, 114). Possibly barbarous or semi-official. The style doesn't look official, but it has correct legends. The A in the right reverse field is oddly placed. The coin is also small at 20mm. From the Freckenham (Suffolk) Hoard 1948.

- Julian. There were imitations of siliquae, although I don't think counterfeiting was epidemic at this time.

Julian II Contemporary Imitation Siliqua, 361-363

Imitating Arles. Silver, 16mm, 1.63g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N FL CL IVLIA-NVS P F AVG. VOT X MVLT XX within wreath, dot in medallion at top; CONS in exergue (cf RIC VIII, 312). From the West Norfolk/Grimston Hoard 2018. Portable Antiquities Scheme: NMS-963FF1.

However, in Spain, there were more imitations, which, like most of the other epidemics, related to a coin shortage:

Magnus Maximus Barbarous AE2, 383-388

Spain imitating Lugdunum. Bronze, 22mm, 4.39g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N MIG MA-MVS P F AVG. Emperor standing left, raising kneeling female; REPARATIO M AVGG (restoration of Maximus, instead of the usual REPARATIO REIPVB, restoration of the Republic) (cf RIC IX, 32). Struck in coastal Spain around 400 because of a coin shortage. An intermediary between the official Magnus Maximus coinage and the maiorinae of Maximus of Barcino (Barcelona). Possibly used during Visigothic rule in Barcino around 415.

- Saxon. The collapse of the Roman Empire meant coins disappeared, but they were revived in the 600s when the Saxons copied Roman coins. They copied Constantinian and later coins, but you can tell the difference from the above imitations by the style.

Pale Gold Phase 'Two Emperors' Thrymsa, 645-675

Kent. Gold, 13mm, 1.19g. Diademed and draped bust right; pseudo legend around. Two small busts facing; above, Victory with withs enfolding the figures; pellet to each side of Victory's head (SCBC 767).

Your avatar coin is a gem 😲!

[Pellinore]

Well, for the Greek and Roman imitation coins minted in the East, and there were many - now unearthed in Russia and Ukraine, called Celts and Goths - there is this favorite book of mine, from 2012 and happily unmarred by politics:

SERGEEV, Andrei Barbarian Coins on the Territory Between the Balkans and Central Asia. Moscow, State Historical Museum, 2012. 31 x 22 cm. Cloth with dust jacket. 256 p. Richly illustrated. Printed on art paper. 
* Andrei Sergeev (1933-1998) amassed a large collection of mainly imitations from Greek and Roman coins, but also Parthian and Byzantine, that were found in the USSR in the second half of the 20th century. This encompasses a vast area, between the Balkans and China. Many coins one would recognize as Celtic, but also different Hellenistic and Roman imitations may be found, and coins that were inspired by Seleucian and Bactrian examples. The book also contains some essays by Sergeev, about the imitations of Macedonian and Thasos tetradrachms, imitated Roman denarii and aurei, about the Taman denarius (Crimea), the Baltic miliaresion, various imitations from the Trans-Caucasian region and the Central Asian copper imitations of Parthian drachms. A treasure of knowledge about a rare subject.
 

[Edessa]

Constantius II, AD 337-361 AD. AR Siliqua (22mm, 3.16g). Balkan imitation of the Constantinople mint (cf., struck AD 355-361). Obv: DN CONSTAN-TIVS PF AVG B; Diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right. Rev: VOTIS/ XXX/ MVLTIS/ XXXX in four lines within laurel wreath, in exergue C·M. Ref: cf. RIC 102. Good Very Fine, toned. Rare. Ex Lanz 125 (28 Nov 2005), Lot 36. Ex Kunker 111 (18 Mar 2006), Lot 7174. Ex Elsen 91 (24 Mar 2007), Lot 359. Ex Elsen 152 (9 Sept 2022), Lot 152. See Bastien in ANSMN 30, cf. RIC (Const.) 102 and 104 Note. 

[Captch]

Here's my imitative: a two victories of Constantine but the obverse reads something like IIIII. I look forward to reading through the references and seeing if I can track down any more about my coin.

[Qcumbor]

Not a lot of them here, even though I find them appealling and funny. Some great examples posted above.

TETRICVS II

 

And the obscure, yet famous among our community NSIIITIIII

 

Q