Anyone collect Russian roubles?

[GregH]

I've always been fascinated by the Romanovs, so i have started a new collection of Russian Czars and Czarinas.

It's a short series of roubles from Peter the Great to Nicholas II, so i figure i can collect them all (or find novodels as space-fillers for the tricky rulers).

My first Russian coin is Elizabeth Petrovna, popular among her people for her policy of executing nobody during her reign.

Does anyone else have some roubles to share, or some fun facts and tips about collecting Russian coinage?

 

Russian Empire
Elizabeth Petrovna
Denomination: AR Rouble
Year: 1742
Mint: St Petersburg
Obverse: Bust of empress Elizaveta right. Legend around it. “Б·М·ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ·I·IМП:IСАМОД:ВСЕРОС:
СПБ” By God's grace Elizaveta, Empress and Autocrat of All Russia
Reverse: Two-headed eagle with a crown above “МОНЕТА∙ РƔБЛЬ·” Coin Rouble
Reference: Diakov 33; Bitkin 246; Severin 1415

 

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, GregH said:

I've always been fascinated by the Romanovs, so i have started a new collection of Russian Czars and Czarinas.

It's a short series of roubles from Peter the Great to Nicholas II, so i figure i can collect them all (or find novodels as space-fillers for the tricky rulers).

My first Russian coin is Elizabeth Petrovna, popular among her people for her policy of executing nobody during her reign.

Does anyone else have some roubles to share, or some fun facts and tips about collecting Russian coinage?

 

Russian Empire
Elizabeth Petrovna
Denomination: AR Rouble
Year: 1742
Mint: St Petersburg
Obverse: Bust of empress Elizaveta right. Legend around it. “Б·М·ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ·I·IМП:IСАМОД:ВСЕРОС:
СПБ” By God's grace Elizaveta, Empress and Autocrat of All Russia
Reverse: Two-headed eagle with a crown above “МОНЕТА∙ РƔБЛЬ·” Coin Rouble
Reference: Diakov 33; Bitkin 246; Severin 1415

 

@GregHin good consciousnesses can’t support the aggressors 

[GregH]

1 hour ago, El Cazador said:

@GregHin good consciousnesses can’t support the aggressors 

These coins are from Old Russia, not the current aggressive successor regime that followed the Communists.

The Russian royals, after Elizabeth Petrovna, were more German than Russian.

I'm with Ukraine all the way regarding the conflict.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by GregH

[John Conduitt]

14 hours ago, El Cazador said:

@GregHin good consciousnesses can’t support the aggressors 

How does collecting old roubles support Putin? He couldn't sell his collection outside Russia even if he had one. It would be playing Putin's game to consider a whole race guilty of his crimes. Not all Russians are or were warmongers. Peter the Great, who Putin apparently admires, had a famously European outlook.

I don't even think it's a problem collecting Soviet coins. You shouldn't have to justify them when collecting Caligula, Alexander the Great, Timur, or even pre-Civil War US coins is perfectly fine.

USSR Ruble PL, 1924

Silver, 33.5mm, 20.00g. Two figures walking right, radiant sun rising right. 1924г (year). National arms divides circle holding inscription; ПРОЛЕТАРИИ ВСЕХ СТРАН, СОЕДИНЯЙТЕСЬ! СССР ОДИН РУБЛЬ (Workers of the world, unite! USSR One Ruble). Edge Type 1: ЧИСТОГО СЕРЕБРА 18 ГРАММ (4 З. 21 Д.) П∙Л (Pure silver 18 gram (4 Z. 21 D.) P∙L) (Y 90.1).

[Filat]

16 hours ago, GregH said:

Российская Империя
Елизавета Петровна
Номинал: Рубль АР Год: 1742 Монетный двор: Санкт-Петербург Аверс: Бюст императрицы Елизаветы Петровны вправо. Легенда вокруг него. “ Б·М·ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ· I·I МП: I САМОД:ВСЕРОС: СПБ ” Божьей милостью Елизавета, Императрица и Самодержица Всея Руси Реверс: Двуглавый орел с короной над “ МОНЕТА∙ Р Ɣ БЛЬ· ” Монета Рубль Ориентир: Дьякова 33; Биткин 246; Северин 1415

это копия (см. картинку ниже).
 

[ambr0zie]

I do not collect Russian coins (in fact I do not collect modern coins at all) but I have some coins since I was very young.

This 1769 Ekaterina II grivennik (10 kopecs, 1/10 ruble) was given to me by my grandmother when I was 4 or 5. I think she just wanted me to behave. It is one of the coins I treasure the most.

2 Kopecs 1801 Pavel I. I remember I was impressed about the size of the coin as it was the first time I saw something like this (35 mm, 20 g)

1 denga 1750,  Elizaveta Petrovna

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, John Conduitt said:

How does collecting old roubles support Putin? He couldn't sell his collection outside Russia even if he had one. It would be playing Putin's game to consider a whole race guilty of his crimes. Not all Russians are or were warmongers. Peter the Great, who Putin apparently admires, had a famously European outlook.

I don't even think it's a problem collecting Soviet coins. You shouldn't have to justify them when collecting Caligula, Alexander the Great, Timur, or even pre-Civil War US coins is perfectly fine.

USSR Ruble PL, 1924

Silver, 33.5mm, 20.00g. Two figures walking right, radiant sun rising right. 1924г (year). National arms divides circle holding inscription; ПРОЛЕТАРИИ ВСЕХ СТРАН, СОЕДИНЯЙТЕСЬ! СССР ОДИН РУБЛЬ (Workers of the world, unite! USSR One Ruble). Edge Type 1: ЧИСТОГО СЕРЕБРА 18 ГРАММ (4 З. 21 Д.) П∙Л (Pure silver 18 gram (4 Z. 21 D.) P∙L) (Y 90.1).

Peter was worse than Pu, he destroyed cultural heritage of people living around Russian Empire, and imprisoned millions- nothing good came out of that side of world

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, El Cazador said:

Peter was worse than Pu, he destroyed cultural heritage of people living around Russian Empire, and imprisoned millions- nothing good came out of that side of world

Cultural heritage has been destroyed in every place at every stage of history. I don't think there were many trying to preserve it until the last hundred years or so. In England we had the Romans, the Vikings, the Saxons, William I, Henry VIII and the Commonwealth to destroy ours. I collect coins from all of those eras, without being accused of supporting their deeds.

To say nothing good has come out of Russia is obviously not true. To say that Peter I imprisoned millions is also not true. He wasn't a saint, but he wasn't Putin. It's true he was brutal - in pushing through reforms to Westernise his own people.

I wouldn't want my culture and history to be judged entirely by one of my country's leaders. Americans can surely sympathise with that.

Edited December 16, 2022 by John Conduitt

[kirispupis]

I don't collect rubles, but my wife mentioned that when her family lived in Tajikistan, they had several gold coins from the tsars from the late 1800's. It's impossible to know the conditions of the coins, but in her great-grandmother's time it was tradition to pay for brides with a plate full of gold coins. As I understand, the coins used to "buy" her great-grandmother were kept within the family, as the practice ended with her (replaced today with clothes and jewelry for the bride).

When they moved here, the faced a dilemna. The Tajik government wouldn't let them take the coins out of the country. They also couldn't sell them, because people would then know you had money and if the wrong people knew that, then they would kill you. They had a similar problem with their prayer books. They were > 100 years old but those no one would buy, but they also couldn't take them out of the country. If the government found the books, they would burn them. They were already bulldozing synagogues.

So, they wrapped the prayer books as best they could, then they went out into the desert and buried the books along with the coins. Someday, they'll be someone else's hoard.

[panzerman]

One can never blame a whole people. In 1918 Russians were fed up with Nicholas II and his autocratic Czarist Regime. They had a "Revolution" and the Reds seized power. The Leninist govt. used the CHEKA to murder millions of Whites. Later Stalin usurped power after killing Kirov in 1934. From 1934-53 Uncle Joe and his dreaded NKVD heads Beria/ Ezhov/ Iagoda killed 54M/ including 8-16M in the Ukraine 1930-34 famine . Putin was a member of the secret police/ KGB/ no wonder he turned out evil. Most Russians hate Putin and no one wants Communism to return.

I have 23 Russian gold/ platinum/ paladium coins. Here are three....

Elizabeth I Petronva 1741-61

AV 2 Roubles 1756

Ivan V/ Potr I/ Sophia(Regent) 1682-96

AV Dukat ND

Fedor III 1676-82

AV 2 Dukaten ND

 

 

[John Conduitt]

19 hours ago, GregH said:

I've always been fascinated by the Romanovs, so i have started a new collection of Russian Czars and Czarinas.

It's a short series of roubles from Peter the Great to Nicholas II, so i figure i can collect them all (or find novodels as space-fillers for the tricky rulers).

My first Russian coin is Elizabeth Petrovna, popular among her people for her policy of executing nobody during her reign.

Does anyone else have some roubles to share, or some fun facts and tips about collecting Russian coinage?

 

Russian Empire
Elizabeth Petrovna
Denomination: AR Rouble
Year: 1742
Mint: St Petersburg
Obverse: Bust of empress Elizaveta right. Legend around it. “Б·М·ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ·I·IМП:IСАМОД:ВСЕРОС:
СПБ” By God's grace Elizaveta, Empress and Autocrat of All Russia
Reverse: Two-headed eagle with a crown above “МОНЕТА∙ РƔБЛЬ·” Coin Rouble
Reference: Diakov 33; Bitkin 246; Severin 1415

This is a nice coin. Elizabeth is one of the more accessible portraits, but she often comes worn in an unattractive way. I've long thought about collecting the portrait coins, but the lack of denominations with a portrait has held me back. You need a big budget for some of the rubles, and there's nothing in copper. And of course, quite a lot of tsars don't have any portrait coins.

Alexander III Ruble, 1892

St Petersburg. Silver, 19.87g. Bust right, small head, beard close to legend. Crowned double-headed Imperial eagle with date and value (Bitkin 76).

Nicholas II 50 Kopeks ЭБ, 1912

St Petersburg. Silver, 26.75mm, 10g. Head of Nicholas II left; Б М НИКОЛАЙ II ИМПЕРАТОРЪ И САМОДЕРЖЕЦЪ ВСЕРОСС (By God's grace Nicholas II Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia). Heraldic eagle with shields of provinces, holding imperial orb and staff; 50 КОПѢЕКЪ 1913 Г, ЭБ. Edge: Smooth with inscription (В С) ЧИСТАГО СЕРЕБРА 2 ЗОЛОТНИКА 10.5 ДОЛЕЙ ((V S) Pure Silver 2 Zolotniks 10.5 parts) (Bitkin 91). NGC AU 58 (5777125-020).

I've also found buying Russian milled coins a bit of a minefield. It's not really a problem at the lower end, but for these pieces you have to be sure not only is it not fake, but it isn't a novodel, which auctions tend not to be particularly bothered about distinguishing clearly. They're also very often cleaned or environmentally damaged. It's one of the few areas I contemplate graded coins.

So, most of my collection is of lower denominations. I have a fair few 'pyatachoki', since the copper coins are impressively sized, and not hugely expensive.

Peter I the Great 5 Kopeks, 1725

Kadashevsky Mint, Moscow. Copper, 19.74g. Date upwards; Five kopeks. Double-headed eagle; МД. Netted edge (Bit 3719 R).

This coin bears the scars of Paul's conflict with his mother, Catherine II. She issued a new lightweight coinage shortly before her death, which Paul opposed. As soon as she died, he overstruck it with denominations from the old weight standard in a modern version of damnatio memoriae. But he didn't have any designs of his own yet, so he had to use his mother's older dies. You can see the word 'десять' (ten) and traces of '96' across the obverse, and the dots of the ten kopek coin around the 5 kopek eagle on the reverse.

Paul I Five Kopek Overstrike on Catherine II the Great Ten Kopeks, 1797

Russia. Copper, 45mm, 42.13g. Catherine II monogram; 1793. Double-headed eagle; EM. Net-like edge (Bit P101). Struck in 1797 using Catherine II 1791-1796 dies over Catherine II’s reduced coinage, in this case a 1796 ten kopeks. Despite the EM mintmark (Ekaterinburg), these were actually struck at St Petersburg, the Red mint and a temporary mint in Nizhny Novgorod.

[Ryro]

Great coin Greg! And I totally agree with the fascination of the Romenovs! 

Boy O! That empress Elizaveta sure soars to have NEVER said no to seconds!

 

 

If I had any worthless modern Russian coins I'd throw them so hard that they flew all the way back and right up Putin's poop shoot.

That said, my only coin from the Russ (dang, and I even have at least three Chinese coins), I won it in a lot. I believe it's Ivan the Silly:

[CPK]

20 hours ago, El Cazador said:

@GregHin good consciousnesses can’t support the aggressors 

How is collecting old Russian coins "supporting" the aggressors (by which I assume you mean Putin, et al.) Seems like an illogical leap to me.

And anyway, wouldn't having that attitude preclude you from collecting pretty much any coins - especially ancient?

 

I don't have any rubles, but I do have this:

Edited December 17, 2022 by CPK

[Octavius]

I don't think we should associate things like coins, artifacts, music, language, art, etc. with evil individuals or regimes.

[GregH]

5 hours ago, Filat said:

это копия (см. картинку ниже).
 

Я не понимаю. Как вы думаете, почему эта монета является репродукцией?

[GregH]

1 hour ago, CPK said:

How is collecting old Russian coins "supporting" the aggressors (by which I assume you mean Putin, et al.) Seems like an illogical leap to me.

And anyway, wouldn't having that attitude preclude you from collecting pretty much any coins - especially ancient?

 

I don't have any rubles, but I do have this:

Awesome coin. I do like the aesthetic of Soviet art (including propaganda posters) without liking Communism of course! There is something sinister yet beautiful about it.

 

[GregH]

1 hour ago, Ryro said:

Great coin Greg! And I totally agree with the fascination of the Romenovs! 

Boy O! That empress Elizaveta sure soars to have NEVER said no to seconds!

 

 

If I had any worthless modern Russian coins I'd throw them so hard that they flew all the way back and right up Putin's poop shoot.

That said, my only coin from the Russ (dang, and I even have at least three Chinese coins), I won it in a lot. I believe it's Ivan the Silly:

Fascinating coin! I'm definitely going to get some wire money for myself - the best examples i can find.

[GregH]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This is a nice coin. Elizabeth is one of the more accessible portraits, but she often comes worn in an unattractive way. I've long thought about collecting the portrait coins, but the lack of denominations with a portrait has held me back. You need a big budget for some of the rubles, and there's nothing in copper. And of course, quite a lot of tsars don't have any portrait coins.

Alexander III Ruble, 1892

St Petersburg. Silver, 19.87g. Bust right, small head, beard close to legend. Crowned double-headed Imperial eagle with date and value (Bitkin 76).

Nicholas II 50 Kopeks ЭБ, 1912

St Petersburg. Silver, 26.75mm, 10g. Head of Nicholas II left; Б М НИКОЛАЙ II ИМПЕРАТОРЪ И САМОДЕРЖЕЦЪ ВСЕРОСС (By God's grace Nicholas II Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia). Heraldic eagle with shields of provinces, holding imperial orb and staff; 50 КОПѢЕКЪ 1913 Г, ЭБ. Edge: Smooth with inscription (В С) ЧИСТАГО СЕРЕБРА 2 ЗОЛОТНИКА 10.5 ДОЛЕЙ ((V S) Pure Silver 2 Zolotniks 10.5 parts) (Bitkin 91). NGC AU 58 (5777125-020).

I've also found buying Russian milled coins a bit of a minefield. It's not really a problem at the lower end, but for these pieces you have to be sure not only is it not fake, but it isn't a novodel, which auctions tend not to be particularly bothered about distinguishing clearly. They're also very often cleaned or environmentally damaged. It's one of the few areas I contemplate graded coins.

So, most of my collection is of lower denominations. I have a fair few 'pyatachoki', since the copper coins are impressively sized, and not hugely expensive.

Peter I the Great 5 Kopeks, 1725

Kadashevsky Mint, Moscow. Copper, 19.74g. Date upwards; Five kopeks. Double-headed eagle; МД. Netted edge (Bit 3719 R).

This coin bears the scars of Paul's conflict with his mother, Catherine II. She issued a new lightweight coinage shortly before her death, which Paul opposed. As soon as she died, he overstruck it with denominations from the old weight standard in a modern version of damnatio memoriae. But he didn't have any designs of his own yet, so he had to use his mother's older dies. You can see the word 'десять' (ten) and traces of '96' across the obverse, and the dots of the ten kopek coin around the 5 kopek eagle on the reverse.

Paul I Five Kopek Overstrike on Catherine II the Great Ten Kopeks, 1797

Russia. Copper, 45mm, 42.13g. Catherine II monogram; 1793. Double-headed eagle; EM. Net-like edge (Bit P101). Struck in 1797 using Catherine II 1791-1796 dies over Catherine II’s reduced coinage, in this case a 1796 ten kopeks. Despite the EM mintmark (Ekaterinburg), these were actually struck at St Petersburg, the Red mint and a temporary mint in Nizhny Novgorod.

Thanks for sharing your coins and the interesting stories behind them. Russian coins are fascinating and exotic. I have a Catherine II 5 kopek coin in the mail - i love the big chunky coins!

Your points about fakes and novodels are well-taken. Our Russian speaking friend in this thread has indicated that my coin could be a copy, and included a close-up of a section of the bottom of the reverse - although I don't understand what he is pointing out. I wrote back in Russian, so hopefully he will enlighten me.

I thought i did some rigorous due diligence with the coin i purchased - weight is correct, style is correct, edge lettering (the hardest part to fake) looks good to me too. The silver is not mixed with magnetic metals (a common feature of fakes). I did read up on the topic. But I don't know what I don't know. Fingers crossed!

 

 

 

 

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, Ryro said:

That said, my only coin from the Russ (dang, and I even have at least three Chinese coins), I won it in a lot. I believe it's Ivan the Silly:

Yes, Ivan IV the Terrible, Moscow I think, 1535-1547.

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, GregH said:

Our Russian speaking friend in this thread has indicated that my coin could be a copy, and included a close-up of a section of the bottom of the reverse - although I don't understand what he is pointing out. I wrote back in Russian, so hopefully he will enlighten me.

I thought i did some rigorous due diligence with the coin i purchased - weight is correct, style is correct, edge lettering (the hardest part to fake) looks good to me too. The silver is not mixed with magnetic metals (a common feature of fakes). I did read up on the topic. But I don't know what I don't know. Fingers crossed!

I missed that somehow. Yes I'm not sure either. The only thing I can think of is that the coin should be the 1741-1753 "СПБ" ruble (with 5 feathers in the eagle's tail and a dot in the legend below the eagle's tail). But if you look at the bottom of the coin, there are a couple of extra feathers and the dot is to the right of the eagle's tail. Numista seems to have a 1742 version with the dot a little further over, but still not quite the same.

[GregH]

12 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I missed that somehow. Yes I'm not sure either. The only thing I can think of is that the coin should be the 1741-1753 "СПБ" ruble (with 5 feathers in the eagle's tail and a dot in the legend below the eagle's tail). But if you look at the bottom of the coin, there are a couple of extra feathers and the dot is to the right of the eagle's tail. Numista seems to have a 1742 version with the dot a little further over, but still not quite the same.

Could be. I’m wondering if he’s referring to a faint letter (either shaved off or from an under-type). Looks like a “P”. I’ll investigate this further in Russian coin forums. 

 

[John Conduitt]

1 minute ago, GregH said:

Could be. I’m wondering if he’s referring to a faint letter (either shaved off or from an under-type). Looks like a “P”. I’ll investigate this further in Russian coin forums. 

 

I wondered about that but I can't see how that would make it a copy? It is odd, in any case.

[GregH]

3 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I wondered about that but I can't see how that would make it a copy? It is odd, in any case.

I know some Elizabeth coins have an Ivan VI undertype - so maybe this is the case. I’ll see if I can learn something from more specialised Russian coin forums and report back. 
I have thirty days to return this coin if it isn’t satisfactory.

[CPK]

2 hours ago, GregH said:

Awesome coin. I do like the aesthetic of Soviet art (including propaganda posters) without liking Communism of course! There is something sinister yet beautiful about it.

 

Yes, though the ideology is poisonous, you can't deny that the art is inspiring. It's funny you started this thread actually, since I've just recently won a Soviet ruble in an auction. It'll probably be a few weeks till I get it, but when I do I will post it here!

Edited December 17, 2022 by CPK

[kirispupis]

2 hours ago, GregH said:

Thanks for sharing your coins and the interesting stories behind them. Russian coins are fascinating and exotic. I have a Catherine II 5 kopek coin in the mail - i love the big chunky coins!

Did you buy the one from Marc Breitsprecher? I must admit that is a cool coin. I was tempted on it even though it’s more than 2000 years after my era of focus.