Found a damaged Agathokles 317-289 BC Tetradrachm in a french market

[janpieter14]

Hey everyone, first post here. I wanted to share a coin I found in a french street market for 1 euro. Sadly it's badly damaged and was probably used as a pendant. I don't even know if it's real or fake...
Some explanation about the coin I found online: https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=99640
However since finding it I can't stop reading about ancient coins so I think I found a new hobby 

I wouldn't ever want to sell it because I found it myself and it's worth more to me than it's monetary value.

Discussion question: do coins with this amount of damage even have any monetary value to you? Or is it mostly sentimental value for the finder?

Have a nice day.

[sand]

Hello @janpieter14. Welcome to Nvmis Forvms. I'm not familiar with this coin type. Therefore, I cannot make any estimate, of whether the coin is authentic versus fake. However, it's a nice looking coin. Some ancients collectors, such as myself, don't mind holed coins. And it's in pretty good condition, for an ancient coin. More importantly, it has nice eye appeal. If you could measure the diameter and weight of the coin, that would help with figuring out if it's authentic. I'll let the experts in this coin type, chime in, regarding authenticity.

Many ancient coins, can be bought, for less than $50 each. The following web site, is a good place to start : https://www.vcoins.com/ 

Also, you can learn a lot about ancient coins, by key word searching and reading the various threads on Nvmis Forvms.

[sand]

P.S. : Also, if you could take photos of the edge of the coin, that would help, to figure out, if it's authentic versus fake.

[ambr0zie]

I checked for forgeries of this type and I couldn't find a match. However, I am not a specialist in this issue and I can't provide a verdict. Perhaps a Hellenistic specialist would provide a more competent opinion.

Do not rely on what I say because, again, this is not my area - but I don't like the obverse hair - on genuine examples it seems much more detailed from the die but this could be a false impression from the wear.

1 hour ago, janpieter14 said:

However since finding it I can't stop reading about ancient coins so I think I found a new hobby 

This is the most important thing. It's an exceptional hobby and you have a ton of things to learn, a ton of coins to admire/study/buy and you need a ton of money. Actual money.

1 hour ago, janpieter14 said:

Discussion question: do coins with this amount of damage even have any monetary value to you? Or is it mostly sentimental value for the finder?

Yes, I would consider a coin like this (if it's authentic) to still have a lot of numismatic value. Of course, it's diminished by the hole. But still collectable.

[Deinomenid]

 If your coin is real it is likely 310-08BC Sicily, Agathokles from Syracuse, a Tetradrachm.

Obverve shows the Head of Kore-Persephone r., wearing single drop earring, hair wreathed with barley, ΚΟΡΑΣ behind head. Reverse  is Nike standing r., draped from hips, wings spread on either side; she holds in r. hand a hammer, in l. hand a nail, with which she is about to fix helmet to trophy; to r., counterclockwise triskeles; [ΑΓΑΘΟΚΛΕΟΣ] behind.

I have not seen a known fake of these before. 

 

A similar example of my own, including the triskeles is here -

 

[Deinomenid]

If you could, as Sand says, show photos of the edge it would help.

It is unusual to find his coins of this type with the sort of apparent wear yours shows. I just checked my little file of ones I’ve looked at over time and of the 15 it has the least “definition”.

 

[sand]

17 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

you need a ton of money. Actual money.

It seems to me, that one doesn't need a large amount of money, to collect ancient coins. As I mentioned above, many ancient coins can be bought, for less than $50 each. However, as with many other hobbies, it is easy to get carried away, or addicted, or obsessed, and spend more than one can afford. That's why, I find it useful, to keep track of how much I spend on coins and coin books, each month, and I try to stay within a maximum amount per month. However, I don't always succeed.

[ambr0zie]

Ask a non collector if it's OK to spend 200 euros each month on coins. In my experience, 10% of the people seem interested (but mostly because they're polite) and 90% would think all of us are crazy. And even I, and I consider myself a bottom feeder, spend more than 200 euros monthly.

Of course, it's a very good idea to keep track of all the purchases and  stop when needed. I have some strict rules - I have a part of my budget allocated for coins; but this does not affect primary needs - food, utilities, clothing, presents for my family, vacations, whatever. I know people where numismatics are an addition - selling things from the house or cutting almost all the expenses to buy a coin. Everybody is free to live like they want, but I prefer to keep a balance.

I like saving for coins. But with a limit.

[Deinomenid]

I pity the original poster though, for starting with a Syracuse coin is dangerous.

it’s a very difficult area to get lower priced (silver) coins. I had the same problem. Stayed in Ortigia a long time ago and fell in love with the place (and its coins). I wish, for my wallet, I’d stayed somewhere else!

 

[sand]

7 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Ask a non collector if it's OK to spend 200 euros each month on coins. In my experience, 10% of the people seem interested (but mostly because they're polite) and 90% would think all of us are crazy. And even I, and I consider myself a bottom feeder, spend more than 200 euros monthly.

Of course, it's a very good idea to keep track of all the purchases and  stop when needed. I have some strict rules - I have a part of my budget allocated for coins; but this does not affect primary needs - food, utilities, clothing, presents for my family, vacations, whatever. I know people where numismatics are an addition - selling things from the house or cutting almost all the expenses to buy a coin. Everybody is free to live like they want, but I prefer to keep a balance.

I like saving for coins. But with a limit.

I agree. Also, it seems like collecting ancient coins, may be particularly hazardous, because it can be very addicting. It's tempting to spend just a little bit more, to buy a nicer looking coin, or a particularly interesting coin. Or spend $50 here, and $50 there, and $100 there (oh, it's just $50 more than $50), and by the end of the month, you've spend hundreds of dollars. And the price of ancient coins may start below $50, but then it goes up from there. And up. And up.

[ambr0zie]

Absolutely correct. I have (or I least I think I have) some strict rules and budget. And I rarely got myself in a bidding war just by being carried away.

I would also agree that starting with Syracuse tetradrachms (or Greek tetradrachms) is dangerous for 2 main reasons 1. as a beginner you can't discern fakes (and not only as a beginner, some collectors with experience posted on this thread without a clear verdict - me included) 2. they are expensive. Greek coinage offers a bunch of possibilities - and what I still enjoy a lot are the small denominations. To be honest before collecting ancient coins I had no idea coins with a 5-6-7 mm diameter exist, and with plenty of artistic details.

I am very interested to see if anyone can provide a verdict about the OP coin - and yes, pictures with the edge and also size and weight would be useful.

[zadie]

Like others have already mentioned, to make any competent assessment of the coin we'd need the weight and perferably pictures of the edge. Judging by the pictures you've already posted I'm inclined to believe its a forgery. However, I could easily be incorrect as there isn't a lot to go by here.

[NewStyleKing]

Looks a bit cast to me!

[El Cazador]

2 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

 If your coin is real it is likely 310-08BC Sicily, Agathokles from Syracuse, a Tetradrachm.

Obverve shows the Head of Kore-Persephone r., wearing single drop earring, hair wreathed with barley, ΚΟΡΑΣ behind head. Reverse  is Nike standing r., draped from hips, wings spread on either side; she holds in r. hand a hammer, in l. hand a nail, with which she is about to fix helmet to trophy; to r., counterclockwise triskeles; [ΑΓΑΘΟΚΛΕΟΣ] behind.

I have not seen a known fake of these before. 

 

A similar example of my own, including the triskeles is here -

 

Cool set of coins you own, would love to see more of your Tetradrachms!

[ominus1]

...for a buck, its' a good deal even if its not real...:)

[CPK]

Welcome to the forum @janpieter14. I don't know if that coin is genuine or not but if it is, you got the deal of a lifetime! 🙂 

[janpieter14]

Wow thanks for all the helpful reactions. 😀 

I'm going to tag the people who asked for edge pictures here @sand @ambr0zie @Deinomenid @zadie. Hopefully these are clear enough. I also added some better macro pictures of the faces.

I just weighed it with a cheap kitchen scale and it registered 16 grams, including the ring. The diameter is about 25-26 mm (bit difficult to see with a camera, but it's really 25 mm 😅). Both are more or less the same as is written here https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=99640.

Are Syracusan coins faked a lot? Or just Greek coins in general? 

Thanks for all your guys' help 🙂

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by janpieter14

[janpieter14]

7 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

 If your coin is real it is likely 310-08BC Sicily, Agathokles from Syracuse, a Tetradrachm.

Obverve shows the Head of Kore-Persephone r., wearing single drop earring, hair wreathed with barley, ΚΟΡΑΣ behind head. Reverse  is Nike standing r., draped from hips, wings spread on either side; she holds in r. hand a hammer, in l. hand a nail, with which she is about to fix helmet to trophy; to r., counterclockwise triskeles; [ΑΓΑΘΟΚΛΕΟΣ] behind.

I have not seen a known fake of these before. 

 

A similar example of my own, including the triskeles is here -

 

Wow, insane quality on this example!!

[Deinomenid]

The diameter is good, and the weight is ~ok, maybe a gram light, but the hole and wear and normal range may account for that. I also found a similar coin in terms of wear that recently sold, pictured below. Not my coin. Sold for 1,400GBP.

Having been sceptical, I'm less so now but someone else might have a better  idea on the edge photos.

As for your question on value, if  genuine, it's tricky because of the hole, but  maybe more than $100? Certainly a lot more than you paid. Slightly worn ones can go for 2k, really good ones 12k plus.

Re fakes, I rarely come across them in Syracuse types (which probably means  I have a lot!) though the top end where they sell for well over 100k attracts the naughty. If you get into this more, you can quickly reduce the risk of buying fakes by  using reputable dealers. They get it wrong too, but it is not a major issue in this Sicilian sub-niche.

As a complete aside, Agathokles/Agathocles was quite a "character", worth a quick read up on.

 

[Theodosius]

Boy that is a difficult one to judge. The style looks correct. The recessed areas still are fairly sharp, unlike a lot of casts. The surfaces look okay. If real I'd say it's worth at least $300. This is a pretty scarce type that a lot of people would like to have. I don't know if Barry Murphy is a member here but I'd be curious what his opinion is.

It's a very attractive piece no matter what so I would definitely hold on to it.

John

Edited December 3, 2022 by Theodosius
Fixed a typo.

[ambr0zie]

All the forgeries I have seen do not have the reverse 'exergue'. This was the first thing that made me wonder if there is a chance to be authentic. 

And seeing the new pics I tend to believe it is authentic. Again, I am not a specialist in these. 

[janpieter14]

Thanks for all the responses again! I think I might let someone check it out 🙂 If I get more information on it I'll definitely update the thread.

[Prieure de Sion]

I really don't like to be the spoilsport - and important - to estimate something like this via pure pictures is in not sure cases - very very hard. 

What I am a little upset is the edge of the coin. It makes me a little nervous that the edge is so even. In height. The edge itself. It has a touch of "modern" and too perfect.

But as I said - from just the pictures it's hard to judge something like that fairly....
 

[robinjojo]

I'd say that the coin is most likely cast, at least based on the photos.  The detail is mushy and grainy, even allowing for wear and possibly die wear.  When I compare it to Deinomenid's fine example, the differences really stand out.  This assessment is based on the photos, but I'm pretty sure I'd come to the same conclusion with the coin in hand.

Another factor are the fairly flat fields, especially for the reverse, which would be the hammer die side.  As the recipient of the major force of the blow, or blows, I would expect the see more cup-like curvature.  One aspect with cast coins is their relatively shallow or flat fields.  Again, this observation is based on the photos, so that's the caveat for this comment.

Edited December 3, 2022 by robinjojo

[Romismatist]

From my perspective, I agree with what everyone has posted here. From a style perspective, it is close to genuine coins, but I also agree with @robinjojo's thoughts on how even and flat the fields are, how uniform the thickness is, and how evenly round the edges are. Add to that the mushy details and I think that despite the genuine wear on the coin, it is most likely a fake. Still, I think from an educational point of view, @janpieter14 has learned a lot about Sicilian history and a potentially new hobby at a minimal cost. Although Sicilian silver may be pricey, the bronzes can be had in decent shape at affordable prices.