NathanB

Help! A while ago, a dealer friend of mine asked me to identify some coins for him. I took some pictures of them when I was with him, but they are so far gone, and my knowledge very much lacking, that I do not know what they are. Unfortunately, I neglected to get the weights or diameters, but I think the membership here will likely be able to tell me what each of them is regardless as they seem quite distinctive. There are five coins I am looking to identify. I'm under no illusions as to their (lack of) value, but I'd still like to be able to let him know what they are. Coin #1: On what I assume is the obverse, I seem to see a robed figure with a headdress standing left, and holding in his left hand a staff, and in his right, an orb surmounted by a cross. I can't make heads or tails (pardon the pun!) out of the other side at all, unless it's a horse of some kind. Coin #2: The coin above seems to have a person sitting or standing, and facing the viewer. The reverse has Arabic script, but I do not know what it says. It seems clear enough for the most part, though. Coin #3 The obverse has a really cool cat of some sort; the reverse, at a guess, shows an elephant or a horse--or maybe something else entirely. Coin #4 This coin reminds me of some of the ancient Jewish coins, but I am not sure. I do not even know if I have rotated the coin correctly, and in any case I have no idea what is on the second side. Coin #5 The last coin is obviously not ancient, and reminds me of various 19th-20th century coins that I used to see a long time ago. Unfortunately, the only thing I can say about it is that it is Islamic with Arabic script. If anybody can help me out with this, I would be most grateful, and then I can pass on the info to my friend. Thank you very much in advance!

You forgot to end the story! Did your friend find his love after all that free publicity? 😉

Hi ewomack! Thanks for answering my question about your usage of the "zero date" terminology. I understand now. About the second half of your most recent comment, though: I don't know of anyone who finds the current counting system invasive and unsettling. I think most people here in western countries have made their peace with it. I don't know too much about non-western calendars that are still in use today in other countries, though. That said, if I immigrated to such a country, I would just have to get used to the local calendar, I guess.

Interesting comment, ewomack. I agree with part of it, but I had a few points of disagreement, too: regarding the "year zero" terminology, I couldn't tell if you were referring to a year zero in between 1 BC/BCE and 1 AD/CE (there was no such year zero), or if you were referring to counting from a starting point, that being the hypothetical year of Jesus' birth (which we now take to be around 4 BC/BCE) rather than 1 AD). I agree that our modern calendar system of counting years is completely based on the traditional way of Christian counting of time, but I don't think the alternative to this is "violent social upheaval." And if that really were true, it's incredibly sad. That said, I think we are all too locked in, as one person above put it, to change. I also think such change is unnecessary and undesirable--it would be a monumental undertaking with thousands of practical as well as technological complications. I like the inclusiveness of the BCE/CE terminology, but I have no more objection to the fact that it originates in Christian calendrical reckoning than I do of the fact that Tuesday is named after a Norse deity or the fact that September is named as the seventh month of the year. 🙂

Outstanding discussion! For my part, I don't have too much to add as I think others--especially kirispupis, Severus Alexander, and DonnaML--have described exactly why BCE/CE is far more inclusive than BC/AD. And as pretty much everyone who prefers BCE/CE have said, I don't get too bent out of shape when I see BC/AD being used--but I do have a definite preference for BCE/CE in all of my own writing. The thing is, none of this calendar stuff came out of birth fully formed, like Athena from Zeus's head, or Aphrodite from the ocean surf. It's been cobbled together literally over millennia. For this reason, I disagree with the always reasonable Curtisimo when he writes about recognizing the Christian aims of the people who designed our calendar as a reason to keep the BC/AD system. The calendar we all (or almost all!) use is often called the Gregorian calendar, but it's also regularly called the Julian calendar. And as for Julius Caesar, he himself was already modifying a calendar that went back to a much older time in the history of Rome. In short, the calendar we use, with its 365 point something days, is like a palimpsest; its a product of more than one person and more than one time. Our calendar is based partly on the observation of the stars and the seasons, partly on ancient Roman history and religion, partly on Norse mythology, and partly on Christianity. And now many of us add one more element: a humanistic concern for inclusivity. I don't think this last development is any less worthy than the preceding ones. And again, I recognize that not everyone feels the same way, and that's ok. You can continue to use your BC/AD, and for my part I will continue to use my BCE/CE. The important thing is that we all understand each other. A few other notes: ewomack wrote an absolutely outstanding comment, but the comment repeatedly references a year Zero. Despite many shoddily-produced history books and websites, there is most certainly not any year zero in the counting system that we are all discussing. It's an honest mistake, but a very common one. the Gospels present contradictory information regarding the year of Jesus's birth. 4 BC or BCE is generally considered as about the best estimate. I have never heard of the BP system that Donna refers to in her own very excellent comment. I guess it's prevalent in much scientific literature, just as in the academic literature on ancient history, BCE/CE is essentially standard. But the point remains that in popular culture, BC/AD still remains dominant. That said, I do think that is shifting, if slowly. But even if it does, we are simply never going to be able to get away from numbering our years as we do. And there's no need to do that, actually. regarding Severus Alexander's excellent comment, I agreed with it in its entirety--but I would like to note that the scholars who argue that Jesus was nothing more than a mythical figure are normally considered to be on the fringes. Just as I think Socrates was a real historical figure, I think the same of Jesus. The obvious catch is how to get at these original historical figures when they have been presented to us by the pens of their disciples with agendas of their own. There is also the question as to whether this is even necessary, as Socrates and Jesus can be usefully analyzed as figures of literature presenting ideas that would resonate throughout the the history of philosophy, among other areas. As an aside, the figure of Chuang-Tzu over on the Chinese Taoist side of things is very similar in these respects. If you haven't read it already, I strongly recommend the book named after him. It's well worth the read, though some parts will be more memorable and enjoyable than others, of course. Finally, I guess I should answer the OP's question, because I don't think anyone has really done so. In scholarly writing involving ancient Near Eastern history, BCE and CE are normally used. Because of the significant number of very important Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Bible and of the historical, linguistic, and geographical contexts for it, ancient Near Eastern history scholars are normally sensitive enough to use the BCE/CE system. The farther you move away from that field, the more likely you are to use the BC/AD system, it seems to me. And this is especially so outside of academic settings. I think this is one of those areas in which change originating in academia seems to be coming, but coming very slowly, to pop culture. Since most of us are not professional academics, and since our culture has been historically very steeped in Christian history, the most common language in our field, I suspect, will still be the BC/AD system. In other words, I recognize that probably most will use the BC/AD system, but for the reasons expressed so well already by others, I personally prefer the BCE/CE system.

Hi @DonnaML! I'm very sorry to hear about your kitty being kind of on his last legs. I'm a cat owner (ownee?) myself, and cats are definitely family members. I have no idea what I'm going to do in the (hopefully distant) future when it's his time to go. Hang in there.

What a gracious and humble response, @Ryro. Thank you very much! For what it's worth, most of the time, I do enjoy your posts, and...if I'm honest, I'd have to admit that I have a few bats loose in the belfry, too. I think many of us do, really. It's good for us to support each other. Have a good night, and a good week to come. 🙂

Hi @CPK, those are some fair points. Having said that, I'm not sure that a coin with a massive Priapus erection or a lovely pair of Venus' buttocks should be treated with dry, unhumourous language. Jokes, even bawdy ones, are pretty fair game for that sort of thing, and it seems to me that they match the spirit of the original artworks. On the other hand, I do think attacking people when one is startled by their views is a real problem, and having been on the receiving end of such attacks, I know how that feels. But I also feel empathy for the poster in question, because I think they have suffered enormously to get where they are now, and I do think they are able to grow and change. As for the overall issue, I guess part of it all comes down to what one values most: dignity and decorum, or the freedom to be a bit ribald in situations where there isn't a power difference or a captive audience. I tend to think that as long as all of us treat each other with respect and a little give-and-take--and tolerance--we'll probably be ok. -- And one more thing, though here I am thinking of @Ryro: we need to respect the way others collect and what they collect. One person collects LRB's. Another collects Seleucids. Yet another collects Byzantines, while still others collect 12 Caesars--and so on. What one collects shouldn't be held against them. In most instances, the primary point of a collection is for the personal interest of the collector, so there is no "right" or "best" way to achieve that that would apply to all collectors everywhere.

In a way, we're all just victims...of the Puritans (and before them, of others going all the way back to the patriarchal societies of the ancient Near East). Consequently, some people are nervous around nudity or bodily functions, while others are deeply scarred by our culture's previous history of enforcing very narrow and very discriminatory sexual norms. A coin with a Priapus erection or a pair of Venus' beautiful buttocks may make the first group nervous, while providing the second group with joy and validation. Overall, I think the bottom line is: if you don't like it, don't read it and look at it. And if someone says they are uncomfortable, don't attack them. -- Update: YIKES! I just read @IanG's post below including a quote that I had somehow missed--probably because I never read the original in the first place--I just skipped over it. Yes, that particular line definitely crossed a line.

"Please, make it about the coins and not the subject matter." Anytime we are dealing with coinage, it's always about the subject matter. That's as true when looking at a modern coin with, for instance, a king's bust and "Dei Gratia Rex" stamped on it as it is when looking at an ancient Roman coin showing Venus' buttocks. The OP says that we have had women's backsides, breasts, and men's penises as subjects for threads here, but the fact is, we have had every conceivable collecting motif as well. Show your Seleucid coins! Show your most expensive coins! Show your ugliest coins! In addition to those, we've also seen coins with religious iconography, coins with elephants, coins with royal couples, coins with Vesta, coins with Germanicus, coins celebrating military conquests, coins with trophies, coins with architecture, and so on--and I'm just scratching the surface here. And in each thread, people post coins that fit the intention of the thread. I don't see why coins featuring or celebrating the human body should be any different. If one wants to understand history, one has to deal with everything one finds, not just that which one approves of or feels comfortable with. That said, the thread titles are descriptive enough that if someone is upset by nude bodies on coins, they can stay away. It's the same with going to a museum. If a nude Aphrodite or David or Apollo threatens you, just don't go there.

And here I thought this thread was going to be about spintriae! So disappointed! 😉

@shanxi, I think ugliness is, to some extent, like beauty: it's in the eye of the beholder. For what it is, I like your coin. I can make out the features of the bust and the figure well enough. A fair bit of the legends are legible. As the saying goes, it's a very good example of a well-circulated coin. 😉 One of the things I like about this site is that collectors who own gorgeous, expensive coins worth four or five figures, still routinely upvote coins that cost only two. To be sure, there are some truly ugly coins, but I think with many coins on the lower end of the scale, they can still be celebrated for the charms that they do possess. 🙂

That is a really great display, @Spaniard! I'm curious: how do you deal with dust?

Thank you very much, @happy_collector! That is indeed helpful. So my first guess (Taoism) was right after all, it seems--at least in part. Most appreciated.

Can anyone tell me anything about this Chinese silver medallion? Specifically, apart from the weight and purity, what does it say? And also, does it come from a mainline religious group, or from something more like a cult? The three figures on the reverse originally made me think of Taoism. On the other hand, the elephants and the lotuses make me more inclined to think that this is Buddhist, or even Hindu. At this point, my best guess is Buddhist. And that's as far as I got.

@kirispupis, the main thing is that you are happy with your coin and the story it tells. May it bring you years of joy. 🙂 Thanks for the updates, too--they were interesting to read.

I wish I could go back in time and see child @DonnaML buying those almost unidentifiable AE3's and AE'4s!

Great thread, and @kirispupis, thanks for sharing your Great Internal Debate! 😉 I have a couple of questions that might help you think about this matter: -having not purchased this coin before, were you sorry that you did not? And if so, how regretful were you? -do you think that if you purchase it, you will be sorry for having done so? Aside from the answers to those questions, I agree with the general consensus: don't buy the coin. First, It's overpriced for what it is. Worse, its attribution is uncertain--at best. I think those two are enough reasons to not pick it. The fact that you've seen several instances of this type being sold in the last two years indicates that to me, it is a relatively common coin (even if it is technically "scarce"). You have (I hope!) decades of coin collecting ahead of you, and I believe it is likely that you will be able to find a better one at some point in the future. But ultimately, it's your call. I have a feeling that having decided not to buy this coin, you will be at peace with that decision.

What an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous image! It's breathtakingly beautiful! I really love how deep the black is, and the overall monochrome look is very, very stylish.

Moderation, please. Otherwise, this site might as well change its name to CT.

If only Job's wife, Mrs. Socrates, and Mrs. Pius were around to tell their side of things...

I thought the thread went off the rails with his original "the Jews" comment, which looks to me like anti-Semitism, though it may be that it was simply very bad writing. But with that hanging over things, there's no point participating now in what should have been a perfectly interesting thread on the longevity and popularity of ancient coin designs. About Asperger's being a retired term, I didn't know that. A friend of mine, who is Jewish, told me he had Asperger's many years ago, and he's never revised the name of his condition.

It's become utterly ludicrous. The problem is that the administrations of Periclean Athens, Julius Caesar's Rome, and Eucratides' Bactria, etc. aren't around to sue eBay into sanity! I don't think there's a single western government today that really cares about the amount of fake coins floating around eBay. They definitely make authentic coins much harder to find than they should be! Shame, eBay, shame!

@Furryfrog02, congratulations on your retirement and on your new home, too! On a quite different note, you may very well laugh at me, but this 1996 comedy about a mock naval engagement is one of my all time favourite movies! (And of course, it closes with the song you would expect.) (That said, I have a feeling that naval personnel would want to take this with a grain of salt. Hollywood often finds a way to get things wrong even when they are quite easy to get right. But it's a barrel of laughs, for sure--and interestingly enough, prefigured a well-known 2005 naval wargame involving a Swedish submarine.)

Hi Nickelguy! As someone who worked in a coin buying and selling business for seven years, I can offer some general advice. To be sure, our store sold mostly Canadian decimals, but we did sell some US and some world coins also--as well as the odd ancient. When a dealer wants a coin extremely badly, they will pay top dollar for it. That might be as high as 75% of a coin's expected retail value. When a dealer has a lot of junk and doesn't want to add to it, they may refuse to buy a coin at all, or they may offer as little as 10%--or even less--for it. Some dealers will try to pay you an honest amount that is good for both you and them. Others will try to rip you off. And still more might find their offers adjusting based on how prosperous they are at that moment, or--wait for it--their mood(!). Still others will have a sort of preset ratio that they never deviate from, and it might be reasonably fair to you, plus or minus a bit. For many coins, of course, the value won't be as low as 10%, but it will not be as high as 75% either. I would say that in most cases 25%-50% is normal due to the dealer's overhead, and the length of time a coin might sit before selling. There is also the possibility of selling a coin on consignment Of course, it might be anywhere from a few days to a few years before the coin sells! For auctions, this is often where many dealers do some of their buying. Most people's impression of an auction house is when they read about some auction that sells a garage-sale-purchased old master painting for six or seven figures to a private collector. But most items that auction houses handle are nowhere near that kind of value. However, if you have a lot of truly collectible coins, then an auction could be a very viable way to get a good amount of money. When you are starting to shop around for quotes, nothing beats a properly organized Excel sheet. For Canadian coins, the typical format would be: -denomination -year -variety, if necessary, and -grade (if known. If you don't have much experience in grading, or if your coins are not third-party graded, then feel free to leave this blank) Pictures can help a lot. Make sure they are reasonably good ones. Too many people asking for quotes tend to send extremely unattractive pictures that show soils or dirt in the background, or are not cropped at all on a coin that fills only 5% of the surface, or are blurry. Don't be like them! Third-party graded modern coins are easier to move than non-graded ones, and the holder does matter. NGC, PCGS, and ANACS are the best for US coins. All of the above grade Canadian coins, but Canadians probably tend to prefer ICCS overall. It can take time to put together a catalogue like this. My advice: it is absolutely worth it. It not only makes it far, far easier (or even just simply possible) for a dealer to decide if your coins are worth their while and how much they can pay you, it also shows that you have at least somewhat of a command of your subject matter, and that does indeed often factor into how much a dealer will pay you for your coins. Overall, of course, to get the maximum value for your coins, you would sell directly to a private collector, for cash. This is your ideal scenario. Other than that, selling to one of the better auction houses (and here the others above are more helpful than I can be), or selling to a dealer on consignment can work. However, for my part, I would worry too much about sloppy accounting, sticky fingers, or even just forgetfulness to do that if I were selling something--unless I trusted the dealer completely. (And in fact, I once did sell something--not a coin--on consignment through a local art gallery. I was pleased with how it worked out, but it did take about four or five months.) Selling everything to a dealer now would help you to unload everything quickly, but it will get you less than the other methods above would. So everything here is a tradeoff: are you in a hurry? Or does getting top dollar matter more than the amount? Are you willing to put in the time and effort (and guard against security risks!) to sell to a collector directly? How much effort are you willing to put into cataloguing and even picture-taking? All these are questions that only you can answer. It is possible to feel bad (I should have been more patient!) about your choice, but my advice is to really think about it and play around with it in your mind for a while before you decide on any course of action (other than preparatory cataloguing). And then be at peace with your choice and don't second-guess yourself. Aside from this, my advice is to choose reputable auction houses (as mentioned by others above), or reputable dealers--and it's even better if you are already familiar with them on a face-to-face basis, because most of them will treat you better when it's your turn to sell to them than someone who has never met you. A few other comments: selling coins at coin shows can often be a good idea. The dealers there are competing to buy needed coins, and so that gives you an advantage that going into a private store would not. It also allows you to gather quotes more quickly (unless you have a mammoth collection, which it sounds like you do!). If you are sending coins through the mail to a dealer or auction house, consider getting them insured. You would hate to be out all that money if your package never shows up at its destination! Finally, you may wish to part with a section of your collection to see how it all feels to you as a seller. Make this a manageable amount that you can work with. If it's a success, you can repeat it again--on the same scale, or on a larger one. Good luck!