Two Colosseum coins in auction!

[Coinmaster]

Wow: 

Set of Colosseum Sestertii by Titus and Domitian. ; Set of Colosseum Sestertii by Titus and Domitian; Two coins in lot. [source]

Coin #1: Titus; 79-81 AD, Rome, c. 80-81 AD, Sestertius, 27.99g. BM-190 pl. 50.2 (same rev. die), Paris-189 pl. LXXXI (same dies), RIC-184 (R2), Cohen-400 (80 Fr.). Obv: Colosseum seen from front and above between obelisk on base (Meta Sudans) and porticoed building of two stories (Baths of Titus), without legend; Rx: IMP T CAES VESP AVG P M TR P P P COS VIII S - C Titus seated l. holding branch and roll on curule chair set on globe among arms. Ex Gemini XIII, 6 April 2017, lot 162. From a British collection, acquired in 1978 by Paul Munro Walker, Bournmouth. See N.T. Elkins, The Flavian Colosseum Sestertii, Numismatic Chronicle 166, 2006, p. 216, 6, pl. 31 (our dies). To demonstrate the popular nature of Vepasian's rule, the Colosseum was built on the site of Nero's demolished Golden Palace. The reverse type of Titus seated as master of the world (his curule chair set on globe), bringing peace (olive branch) by means of victory over enemies (captured arms), fits well with the recently discovered dedicatory inscription of the Colosseum, stating that the emperors constructed it "from booty" (ex manubis), doubtless chiefly the booty of the Jewish War.

Coin #2: Domitian, Divus Titus; 81-96 AD, Rome, 81 AD, Sestertius, 25.02g. C-399 (80 Fr.), BMC Titus-191 note, RIC-131 (R), pl. 137 (same dies). Obv: No legend. The Flavian amphitheater filled with spectators, seen partly from above; Meta Sudans to l., two-storied porticus of the Baths of Titus to r. Rx: DIVO AVG T DIVI VESP F VESPASIAN Togate Titus seated l. on curule chair, holding branch and roll, and placing his feet on a captured cuirass; the curule chair rests on a globe, and other captured shields, spears, and a helmet are scattered before, below, and behind the emperor; S C in exergue. Titus himself struck the first Colosseum sestertii, but their production was then briefly continued by Domitian for Divus Titus, using one of the same Colosseum obverse dies that Titus had already used, coupled with two new reverse dies naming Divus Titus. Elkins knew just ten specimens of this Colosseum sestertius struck by Domitian for Divus Titus.To the best of our knowledge, a pair of Colosseum sestertii of this original period has never been offered together.

The only other Colosseum coins issued are an exceptionally rare aureus and sestertius issued by Severus Alexander in 223, to commemorate the re-opening of the Colosseum after it had been struck by lightning in about 218, under the reign of Macrinus. These coins were struck 142 years after the coin of Domitian.

Further study in the British Royal Numismatic Chronicle of 2006, in an article by Nathan T Elkins, "The Flavian Colosseum Sestertii: Currency or Largess?" shows that our Titus Colosseum is Elkins 7, of which 11 examples are recorded. But in total, there are about 40 examples from all recorded dies. Of Domitian colosseums, there are 10 recorded by Elkins. Our die is Elkins 9, of which there are six recorded, giving us a total of 10 by both dies, with our coin being the eleventh. Our coin is certainly unrecorded, as when we obtained it, it was in a slab from a far-less-used slabbing company, identified as Titus, and listed as corroded. In fact, our coin was not truly corroded at all, but rather heavily encrusted, and when it was artfully cleaned, it revealed the legend "DIVUS TITUS", which made it the excessively rare issue of Domitian.

These coins are expected to feature in multiple upcoming publications; our Titus Colosseum is anticipated to replace #625B in David Hendin's "Guide to Biblical Coins" after the current 6th edition sells out. In this edition of David Hendin's Book, he lists the Domitian issue of the Colosseum, #626, as "RRR", the highest level of rarity. Even though this coin is listed in his book, it is not illustrated.

Additionally, Whitman has hired Harlan J Berk to re-write Zander Klawans's book on Greek and Roman coins; in that book, this coin will certainly be illustrated.

This pair of Colosseum Sestertii is being offered only as a pair at this FIXED PRICE of $325,000.
. Coin #1: VF
Coin #2: Some isolated corrosion, otherwise EF / VF

Estimate: 325000 USD

Edited January 14 by Coinmaster

[Parthicus]

HJB showed these at the Whitman show in Baltimore in November, and they were kind enough to let me photograph them during a slow period at their table:

 

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

Great duo. I hope they make their way to a good home!

Edited January 14 by Ancient Coin Hunter

[ominus1]

...well i wouldn't mind having one....who wants to go halves?!?..:P

[Coinmaster]

I like the details, like the statues(?) in the middle.

[John Conduitt]

Why sell them together? To boost PR for the auction? 'The only time two (of this original period) have been sold together (to our knowledge)'. They're not unique so it's not like they don't come up.

It's also a bit strange to sell one of them with no provenance at all, especially now they've boosted the price to the cost of a large house. Isn't there meant to be some sort of problem with doing that?

Edited January 14 by John Conduitt

[Restitutor]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:55 AM, John Conduitt said:

Why sell them together? To boost PR for the auction? 'The only time two (of this original period) have been sold together (to our knowledge)'. They're not unique so it's not like they don't come up.

It's also a bit strange to sell one of them with no provenance at all, especially now they've boosted the price to the cost of a large house. Isn't there meant to be some sort of problem with doing that?

Very confused by this as well. This coin is massively out of my price range so perhaps those who can afford coins at this level would have a different POV, but I’d imagine if I could afford this coin, I would only want/need one for my collection.

[David Atherton]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:55 AM, John Conduitt said:

It's also a bit strange to sell one of them with no provenance at all, especially now they've boosted the price to the cost of a large house. Isn't there meant to be some sort of problem with doing that?

No. But there is a problem when the coins in question have a fabricated false provenance to encourage bids and throw off the fact that they were looted illegally.

I know many of the coins I've recently purchased from HJB had additional provenances not revealed in the catalogue ... perhaps that is the case here?

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

Can an expert in this coinage tell me if the price is fair ? HJB has the reputation of having VERY high prices, and when I see Gallic empire coins in their hands, they’re usually 3 times too expensive than other dealers. For example in the next buy or bid:

Estimated at 135 USD ??? In 5 minutes I can easily find 10 coins of the same type in the same condition for 45 USD !

 

[Salomons Cat]

4 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

Can an expert in this coinage tell me if the price is fair ?

I would never call myself an expert. I've just done some 3-minute research. That's how I can tell you that the first coin was auctioned for $85,000 in 2017 (Gemini) and the lower one for $20,000 just half a year ago (CNG).

Interestingly, the CNG specimen had a different surface half a year ago. They did some additional cleaning on the second coin. 

On 1/14/2024 at 1:55 PM, John Conduitt said:

Why sell them together? 

I see 2 reasons.

1) The second coin has undergone some cleaning since the last sale. It might seem safer for HJB to sell it alongside another specimen, allowing for a comparison of styles.

2) I believe there are around 80 specimens (?) of this coin still in existence. @David Atherton likely knows the exact number. However, currently, these two appear to be the only specimens on the market. As usual, when a coin like this enters the market, having two available simultaneously might be overwhelming for the market. Selling them separately could significantly reduce the price. It's much easier to find two persons who really want this coin and are willing to pay any price than it is to find 3 or 4 such buyers. If they are sold together, the price will likely be much higher.

Edited January 17 by Salomons Cat

[David Atherton]

I think the price is overinflated because of the novelty of the listing and the rare opportunity to acquire both Colosseum varieties at once. Yes, they are two entirely different varieties! The first is a lifetime issue stuck under Titus and the second for Divus Titus struck under Domitian. The first variety is the 'classic' Colosseum type with roughly between 50-80 specimens in existence (I think the latter number more probable). The second variety is much, much rarer! 10 specimens sounds about right.

The bragging rights HJB have for this listing are well deserved!

Edited January 17 by David Atherton

[Salomons Cat]

41 minutes ago, David Atherton said:

Yes, they are two entirely different varieties! The first is a lifetime issue stuck under Titus and the second for Divus Titus struck under Domitian. The first variety is the 'classic' Colosseum type with roughly between 50-80 specimens in existence (I think the latter number more probable). The second variety is much, much rarer! 10 specimens sounds about right.

Really good that you pointed this out again. When looking at the most recent posts here (including mine) we obviously started neglecting this fact at some point.

But I must mention 1 other thing about the Domitian issue:

Quote

In fact, our coin was not truly corroded at all, but rather heavily encrusted, and when it was artfully cleaned, it revealed the legend "DIVUS TITUS", which made it the excessively rare issue of Domitian.

What HJB wrote here is not entirely true. Or at least the phrasing can be slightly misguiding. Yes - on the ANACS encapsulation, the coin was described a Titus issue which was wrong (which seems a bit funny and concerning for such an expensive coin!). But CNG has already described the coin correctly as a Divus Titus, before the cleaning. So, the cleaning was not necessary to reveal this legend.
CNG was just not correct about the fact that the coin was encrusted and not corroded. That's the single new fact that was discovered by HJB. But CNG didn't take the coin out of the slab, so the difference was probably not visible to them.
Anyway - my personal conclusion is that everyone should be a bit more precise with their descriptions of these $100'000 items...

[kirispupis]

In terms of whether the price is correct, last I checked this listing is still unsold. Given the fact that HJB typically draws individuals with the funds for such a purchase, the fact that it hasn't sold yet tells me the price is over-inflated.

I'm sure they'll eventually sell for some price. In the meantime, HJB receives some nice advertising!

[singig]

 

19 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

Really good that you pointed this out again. When looking at the most recent posts here (including mine) we obviously started neglecting this fact at some point.

But I must mention 1 other thing about the Domitian issue:

What HJB wrote here is not entirely true. Or at least the phrasing can be slightly misguiding. Yes - on the ANACS encapsulation, the coin was described a Titus issue which was wrong (which seems a bit funny and concerning for such an expensive coin!). But CNG has already described the coin correctly as a Divus Titus, before the cleaning. So, the cleaning was not necessary to reveal this legend.
CNG was just not correct about the fact that the coin was encrusted and not corroded. That's the single new fact that was discovered by HJB. But CNG didn't take the coin out of the slab, so the difference was probably not visible to them.
Anyway - my personal conclusion is that everyone should be a bit more precise with their descriptions of these $100'000 items...

five months ago the seller made a presentation video of the two sestertii , the one issued by Domitian was already ''artfully'' cleaned , at that time his opinion was that both are issued by Titus:  

 

[David Atherton]

19 minutes ago, singig said:

 

five months ago the seller made a presentation video of the two sestertii , the one issued by Domitian was already ''artfully'' cleaned , at that time his opinion was that both are issued by Titus:  

 

Titus would not have issued a Divus coin in his own name! I think it was a slip of the tongue. HJB in their write-up on the coins correctly distinguished the two.

Edited January 18 by David Atherton

[Ed Snible]

On 1/16/2024 at 5:07 PM, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

Can an expert in this coinage tell me if the price is fair ? HJB has the reputation of having VERY high prices, and when I see Gallic empire coins in their hands, they’re usually 3 times too expensive than other dealers. For example in the next buy or bid:

Estimated at 135 USD ??? In 5 minutes I can easily find 10 coins of the same type in the same condition for 45 USD !

I have found good deals in HJB sales.  These are not auctions, but "Buy or Bid".  135 is the "Buy it now price".  This means you can bid half that, $67.50, and likely get it.  You may be able to find it slightly cheaper, but not with a nice printed catalog you can put in your library when anyone asks you to prove its "real".  Only someone who really wants the coin and thinks it is worth more than the Buy It Now price will pay $135 for that Victorinus.

[Cordoba]

1 hour ago, Ed Snible said:

I have found good deals in HJB sales.  These are not auctions, but "Buy or Bid".  135 is the "Buy it now price".  This means you can bid half that, $67.50, and likely get it.  You may be able to find it slightly cheaper, but not with a nice printed catalog you can put in your library when anyone asks you to prove its "real".  Only someone who really wants the coin and thinks it is worth more than the Buy It Now price will pay $135 for that Victorinus.

for what it's worth, it seems like the hidden reserve price is 65% of the max bid, if the starting price on biddr is accurate: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/hjbltd/browse?a=4235&l=5008976
 

 

[Deinomenid]

I've had a number of decent deals from them by waiting until the end. A good way to check is to see the prices as they come  up on coinarchives etc. The ones I have bought show the actual purchase price not the ones they show  in the first catalogue.

[Ed Snible]

1 hour ago, Cordoba said:

for what it's worth, it seems like the hidden reserve price is 65% of the max bid, if the starting price on biddr is accurate: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/hjbltd/browse?a=4235&l=5008976

Perhaps it was 50% back in the 1990s when I started getting the catalogs?

I checked the web site, https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/policy/bbs , which doesn't give a fixed percentage.  The terms say "Approximately two weeks before the sale closes, HJB will go through what has not sold and decide whether to accept bids/offers made on lots."

[KenDorney]

On 1/14/2024 at 4:55 AM, John Conduitt said:

especially now they've boosted the price to the cost of a large house.

I live in California, and that money will get you a small and very modest house!

[John Conduitt]

24 minutes ago, KenDorney said:

I live in California, and that money will get you a small and very modest house!

In London it will get you a garage. But in Lincolnshire, you can have 5 bedrooms.

[Salomons Cat]

14 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

In London it will get you a garage. But in Lincolnshire, you can have 5 bedrooms.

In Switzerland, the money equals 30% of a nice 3.5 bedroom apartment in the center of one of the big cities. Garage included.
But you'll still need a mortgage for the other 70%.

[KenDorney]

19 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

In London it will get you a garage. But in Lincolnshire, you can have 5 bedrooms.

 

4 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

In Switzerland, the money equals 30% of a nice 3.5 bedroom apartment in the center of one of the big cities. Garage included.
But you'll still need a mortgage for the other 70%.

I'm just waiting for retirement when I can leave California behind as a sad memory.  But choosing the right place to move to is monumentally difficult!

[DonnaML]

The "Buy or Bid" portion of the sale has ended, with the pair remaining unsold. But they're now available in the "after-sale," for the reserve price of only $295,000! Just in case any of you happened to be waiting for that to swoop in.

I am somewhat surprised to see that 336 [number corrected] of the 678 ancient coins in the sale -- almost half -- remain unsold at this point. I wonder if that's unusual. I scrolled through all of them, and even the reserve prices seem kind of high to me for many of the coins, taking their condition into account. 

Edited February 14 by DonnaML

[Kaleun96]

9 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I am somewhat surprised to see that 344 of the 678 ancient coins in the sale -- almost half -- remain unsold at this point. I wonder if that's unusual. I scrolled through all of them, and even the reserve prices seem kind of high to me for many of the coins, taking their condition into account. 

50% unsold at this point sounds about right for the last few Buy or Bids from HJB. I think you have to go back two years or more before you find the Buy or Bids that used to see huge numbers sold in the first few hours. Every time you would refresh the page, another couple of coins would be sold. It was a mad rush to go through the catalogue before all the good coins were sold, only hindered by their slow servers (which have gotten better) and buggy website (which is about the same).

My run of not buying anything from a Buy or Bid after is nearly up to 3 years now, and that was after I bought five or six coins in them between 2020-2021.