Help to identify old and strange coin or token.

[gransuricata]

Strange coin or token to identify.
Weight: 6.9g.
Diameter: 26mm.
Thickness: 2.6mm.
Metal: Silver
OBVERSE: Head of the Goddess Athena with Corinthian helmet.
REVERSE: Image of the mythical goat Aga (Mecedonia). Eight pointed star. Legend AʘƩI
OBSERVATION:
The letter "ʘ" (AʘƩI) was used in the alphabet by the Macedonians before the rule of the Roman Empire. Then it happened to be the letter "Θ" in the alphabet.
After a forensic metallurgical analysis (Analysis of the metal and its structure), it was determined that it could be a little over 2000 years old.
Attached photos and document of the metallurgical analysis.

Because of my inexperience, I have cleaned the currency.

Can you help identify this coin or token?

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Restitutor
PDF Download Removed

[shanxi]

Since you uploaded a video about this coin in the uncleaned state on youtube asking if this a fake, I think we can discuss this matter.

Actually when I saw the style, my first thought was "fake", but I am happy to be corrected.

What is the the metal composition? The file you uploaded is not working.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by shanxi

[gransuricata]

Hello Shanxi. The material is Silver. Thanks for your opinion. Download the metallurgical report from here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lPzJsNRUaCvmsz9fKEuJQdyi6hcqjJ1N/view?usp=sharing

[rNumis]

Hi, can you post images of the report? Downloading anything from an unknown google drive out on the internet is in general a very bad idea...I certainly dont do it, though others may not be so cautious.

Cheers,

Steve 

[gransuricata]

Hi rNumis (Steve). 

My google drive is virus free. You don't need to download, you can read it online. Greetings.

[Romismatist]

Not crazy about the style, which seems way off to me. The artistry is cruder than other types of the intended period, in particular the treatment of the hair and the crest of the helmet. I'd say it's a modern fantasy piece. 

[Ryro]

Cast fake. And a poor one at that. 

[gransuricata]

Hi Romismatist. I can accept that you say it is a fantasy coin, but NOT modern.
A metallurgical study was carried out on the piece and it indicates that it is old. Perhaps it is nothing more than a token or medal, but I cannot refute the study and analysis of a professional.

[gransuricata]

Hi Ryro. 

It may be a poor coin as you say, but you are not considering that this piece was made of silver and the MAKEDONIAN ALPHABET KOINE was used. It is also not considering that it was made by hammer blow.  If it really is a fantasy, let me tell you that a lot of work has gone into making it.

[Ryro]

8 minutes ago, gransuricata said:

Hi Ryro. 

It may be a poor coin as you say, but you are not considering that this piece was made of silver and the MAKEDONIAN ALPHABET KOINE was used. It is also not considering that it was made by hammer blow.  If it really is a fantasy, let me tell you that a lot of work has gone into making it.

Have you not considered how stupid writing, "but you are not considering that this piece was made of silver and the MAKEDONIAN ALPHABET KOINE was used." is??

I'm not even going to attempt to explain to you the basic signs of how obvious your coin being modern is. Nor how far off the artistry, if we're calling it that, is. 

Oh, it's made if silver! Everyone relax. It must be legit. 

And you're asking me? Me?? If I know about Macedonia and this hilariously ridiculous thing you, or the person who swindled you into buying this fake, call the Macedonian alphabet coin?

Not much work went into making this. It was probably some forgers drunk teenager.

TROLL ALERT!

[Roman Collector]

[gransuricata]

Ryro, You are disrespectful. You disrespect me and worst of all, you don't give arguments to invalidate what I say. That indicates that you are NOT interested in investigating. You are only interested in ratifying what you have read in books and consider history and archaeological research closed.

[Ryro]

You really are a hoot. Why would I tell someone showing off fake coins and claiming they're real how to make better fake coins??

You pretended to ask opinions. When the truth came out, and I wasn't the only one letting you know that there was something fishy going on with your bogus coin, you all of the sudden aren't asking for free opinions. You are standing behind a fake coin.

"You are only interested in ratifying what you have read in books and consider history and archaeological research closed."

This statement coming from an asshole on a site with Numismatists, teachers and professors sharing history and knowledge telling people a fake is real and to look out cause this coin, wait for it folks, "but you are not considering that this piece was made of silver and the MAKEDONIAN ALPHABET KOINE was used"

Ps, how do we block fools on here?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Ryro
Crawl back in your hovel

[gransuricata]

Ryro, You are a really despicable and very ignorant person. You already gave your opinion. Now I respectfully ask you, can you please stop bothering me?

[JayAg47]

Metallurgical analysis don't tell the age of the coin, it merely gives the composition of the metal. The composition of your coin needs to match the other coins from that time period, given ancient coins are never pure! it could be 98% silver, with impurities like gold, lead, copper, and other heavy metals. If you coin shows 99.99% silver it is most definitely a modern issue, or even if they added copper, it still needs to have other trace amounts of rare metals.

Also it is not that hard to make a die and strike coins, not all modern replicas are cast. 

[ambr0zie]

@gransuricata, I read your topic on another board you posted on and I was curious to see the conclusions here. 

There are 2 things raising red flags (for me at least) - the style - quite simplistic especially on the obverse (although this is not a proof by itself) but the most important is that nobody can find any similar coin. 

It's very unlikely to be an unrecorded genuine coin, first ever seen. Metalurgical analysis, although far from my area of expertise, is not concludent here. 

I agree you were not welcomed in the best way here, but when you join a community you say hello and you introduce yourself. Not a written rule. Many members here and other boards are walking encyclopedias but this doesn't mean they are obliged to help. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by ambr0zie

[NathanB]

I'm struggling to put words that are mannerly to the thoughts in my head, but here goes. 

I have deep misgivings, not just about the coin, but also about the original post and the content posted here.

1) The coin looks like a bad modern imitation and nothing else.

2.) Being asked to download material from a random link puts me off.  If someone has data to share about a coin they want information about, then they should just type it up normally or copy and paste.

3.) The misuse of the word "forensic."  That word means legal.  Nothing here is related to the law in any way whatsoever.

4.) The claim by the poster that a metalogical analysis can reveal the age of the coin.  That's complete B--well, everyone knows the rest.  XRF scans and the like determine the metallic content of a coin that the machine can read.  They do not in any way indicate the age of a coin. Period. 

5.) The claims by the OP that the coin must somehow be ancient and that it must be hammered, and that the presence of "Makedonian alphabet koine" lettering means that it is somehow authentic.

If anything, I think all of us should be flagging this post rather than playing along with it.

[Restitutor]

Hi NumisHeads,

I have added a message to the top of this thread to remind people to be cautious when presented with a link that would download something onto their computer. I urge everyone not to download anything unless it is from someone that you trust.

Furthermore, I have removed the download link and would recommend the OP post as a normal attachment or include screenshots, rather than a downloadable link, if the study is still needed.

Let's all remember to keep things coin related and civil 🙂 @ambr0zie's reply especially is a good example. If you have any issues or concerns the report button is always available and will summon me à la Batman like it did here 🦇🦸

-Res

[Oldhoopster]

If you read the "metallurgical analysis", you'll find it is nothing more than an opinion based on observations.  There is NO analytical data. 

The writer says Metal: Silver in the report.  He doesn't say how he determined this?  

He says there are thick layers of silver sulfides and chlorides. WHERE IS THE DATA?  Or is it just an observation?  Then he makes the conclusion that since sulfides and chlorides are present, the "piece had settled for a long period".  Apparently, the author knows nothing about artificial toning.

Remember, without data you're just somebody else with an opinion.

Members have demonstrated high levels of credibility regarding ancient coins.  What are the credentials of your Forensic Metallurgist?  He obviously has offered NO metallurgical data, so all he has given you his numismatic opinion. 

I'm sorry, but I believe you wasted your money on this report.  I would be embarrassed to send that to a client without any supporting data

[gransuricata]

ambr0zie, Thanks for your opinion. Very respectable.

[Ryro]

11 hours ago, NathanB said:

I'm struggling to put words that are mannerly to the thoughts in my head, but here goes. 

I have deep misgivings, not just about the coin, but also about the original post and the content posted here.

1) The coin looks like a bad modern imitation and nothing else.

2.) Being asked to download material from a random link puts me off.  If someone has data to share about a coin they want information about, then they should just type it up normally or copy and paste.

3.) The misuse of the word "forensic."  That word means legal.  Nothing here is related to the law in any way whatsoever.

4.) The claim by the poster that a metalogical analysis can reveal the age of the coin.  That's complete B--well, everyone knows the rest.  XRF scans and the like determine the metallic content of a coin that the machine can read.  They do not in any way indicate the age of a coin. Period. 

5.) The claims by the OP that the coin must somehow be ancient and that it must be hammered, and that the presence of "Makedonian alphabet koine" lettering means that it is somehow authentic.

If anything, I think all of us should be flagging this post rather than playing along with it.

Couldn't agree more. No way this poster is this ignorant, hilariously, while still so confident. Either a forger, a fake seller or a fool. Maybe all three. However, I fear that some others that are English as a second language might not read between the lines on this one. 

When someone asks for an opinion and then brazenly refutes it and tries to explain that they are right *despite having just said "Because of my inexperience, I have cleaned the currency.", this is called trolling. 

DO NOT buy coins from this individual. 

[gransuricata]

Ryro. I only expose the data and information that I have obtained. I accept all opinions, but not disrespect. Lastly, don't worry, I DO NOT sell coins.

[CPK]

Welcome @gransuricata ! I can't contribute anything helpful about your coin, but if you are truly interested in the hobby of ancient coin collecting, stick around! There's a lot to learn here and most are eager to share their knowledge with newcomers.

For others...I really hope that this doesn't become the normal way we greet newcomers. Even if they do rub you the wrong way, extending a little grace won't hurt anyone, and if they do turn out to be a troll, at least you will have the satisfaction of not having been baited into a heated exchange. Just my two cents' worth. 

[Ryro]

37 minutes ago, gransuricata said:

Ryro. I only expose the data and information that I have obtained. I accept all opinions, but not disrespect. Lastly, don't worry, I DO NOT sell coins.

Well then, if that truly is the case, I apologize if I was being the asshole here. I may simply be jaded by the MASSIVE amounts of trolls that an old forum used to attract and misjudged you. There just were a lot of warning signs (many cited above). 

I will point out that I gave honest and not disrespectful advice at first, it wasn't until you threw it back in my face and were condescending to me (you replied, "but you are not considering..." that I become rude.

To help you in the future, the other concerning things about the coin, aside from the fact that the style (and style is huge as forgers get better everyday) is way off, would be the casting bubbles as well as craters, which are more evident on the reverse. The bubbling metal on the side of the coin (see how smooth it is?) is a good way to hide casting seems. And then the behavior of a poster, ie, the "funky" report you sent. Sending hyperlinks is a dead giveaway for someone trying to phish and or troll. Often means they are up to something.

But, as you are new here, I will give you the customary welcome. I just ask that you don't post too many "what is it?" and "what is it worth?" questions

 

[gransuricata]

Thank you very much CPK for your comment and welcome. I am dabbling in the collection of Roman Greek and Iberian coins. I have been collecting coins for years, but everything related to coins from the American continent. I understand perfectly what they tell me; "Your coin is fake or your coin is a fantasy", but I don't understand so much aggression and lack of respect. Your comment has taken me to an oasis of good behavior, respect and camaraderie. Many thanks and a strong hug.

Edited July 6, 2022 by gransuricata