Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 15, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) Someone pointed this out on the Facebook ancient coins group. I must say that "gently tooled" is a new one on me! Plus, "gently" my foot! Description ★ Ex Triton XXIII & ex. Ex Gorny & Mosch 219 (hammer €7500) ★ MYSIA. Pergamum. Septimius Severus, with Julia Domna. (193-211 AD.) Æ Medallion (44mm, 45,92 g.). Claudianus Terpander, strategus. • AVT • KAI • Λ • CЄΠ • CЄOVHPO C • ΠЄP around, IOV ∆OMNA/CЄBACTH in two lines below, laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust of Severus right vis-à-vis draped bust of Julia Domna left / ЄΠI CTPA • KΛ AV∆VANOV (sic) [TE]PΠA/N∆P OV around, ΠЄPΓAMHNΩN/B NЄOKOPΩN in two lines in exergue, Hercules and the Cerynean Hind – Hercules standing right, grasping the antlers of the Cerynean Hind with both hands and leaning on its back with his left knee. SNG Copenhagen 497; SNG von Aulock –; SNG BN –; Voegtli Type 4. Dark brown and red patina somewhat overcleaned, surfaces smoothed and gently tooled, otherwise Good Very Fine. Very Rare. Ex Triton XXIII (14 January 2020), lot 795. Ex Gorny & Mosch 219 (10 March 2019), lot 326 (hammer €7500); Ex Gerhard Hirsch Nachfolger 289 (February 2013), lot 867. Gorny & Mosch 199 (10 October 2011), lot 596. The scene on the reverse dysplays the Third Labor, Hercules, the capture the Cerynean Hind, with its brazen hooves and golden horns, alive and bring it from Oenoe to Mycenae. Hercules chased the stag for one full year before it finally tired, and then he captured it – as shown on the coin type. Bidding Current bid no bid Starting price 2'400 EUR Estimate 3'000 EUR Edited December 15, 2023 by DonnaML 1 6 1 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted December 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 15, 2023 Two die matches to compare: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=309084 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4241423 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted December 15, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) "Gently" to the point of caricature! Edited December 15, 2023 by robinjojo 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 I "gently" decline this lot 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 Ouch, nothing gentle about this tooling job. In my view the coin is completely destroyed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 The tooler was gentle, perhaps he has proof that he didn't shout at the coin and didn't call it names. 4 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 In this episode of 'Forged in Fire' we're gonna make a gently tooled provincial coin out of this slug. LIKE AND SHARE! 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliodromus Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 Caringly tooled by an English gentleman. 4 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 It was a professional and discrete work. 7 6 1 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 Would be fun to own, just due to how bad it is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 15, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted December 15, 2023 Does anyone have easy access to the previous sales to see if the coin was already tooled this badly at the time of those sales? If it was, I'm surprised that people were willing to pay amounts for it as high as the 7,500 Euro hammer price stated for the Gorny & Mosch sale in 2019. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted December 15, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 15, 2023 I saw that monstrosity and just shook my head. Poor Domna has been put through the ringer lately! I was just PMing a pal this one earlier today that says NOTHING about the smoothing led alone the hilarious tooling: Julia Domna (Augusta, 193-217). Æ Sestertius (29mm, 23g). Rome. Draped bust right, wearing stephane. R/Juno standing left, holding patera and sceptre; to left, peacock standing left. RIC 840 (Severus). 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted December 15, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 15, 2023 8 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Does anyone have easy access to the previous sales to see if the coin was already tooled this badly at the time of those sales? If it was, I'm surprised that people were willing to pay amounts for it as high as the 7,500 Euro hammer price stated for the Gorny & Mosch sale in 2019. Triton XXIII (2020) - hammer $2750 " Dark brown and red patina, surfaces smoothed, tooled. " nothing mentioned about anything gently Gorny&Mosch auction 219 (10 March 2014 and not 2019) - 7500 euros (!) translation of the notes from the house - "RR! Chestnut brown patina, front slightly re-engraved, fields smoothed" - so this is the source of inspiration! Gorny & Mosch 199 (10 October 2011), lot 596 - RR! Chestnut brown shiny patina, fields smoothed (apparently nobody noticed this is slightly re-engraved or gently tooled) Gerhard Hirsch Nachfolger 289 (February 2013) - actually auction 289 was in May 2013 and here the tooling is even more visible (or perhaps it's the picture?) Not sure how they made errors in finding the actual correct auction. If you list previous auctions as a reference, you need to be accurate. I am pretty unskilled in detecting tooling but naming this vandalized coin as "gently tooled" or "slightly re-engraved" is a disgrace. 6 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 16, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted December 16, 2023 (edited) I realized that the link I thought I posted to the current auction listing didn't appear in my post, so here it is again: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/eidmarauctions/browse?a=4101&l=4842903&fbclid An auction company called Eid Mar Auctions GmbH in Vienna. Edited December 16, 2023 by DonnaML 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted December 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2023 19 minutes ago, DonnaML said: I realized that the link I thought I posted to the current auction listing didn't appear in my post, so here it is again: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/eidmarauctions/browse?a=4101&l=4842903&fbclid An auction company called Eid Mar Auctions GmbH in Vienna. Happy to see that it still has no bids... so that I can snatch up that modern MASTERPIECE before any of you suckers know what I've done! Jk. I'm very happy with my natural beauty for this labor. And would much rather have it than that garbage. I actually ranked this one higher in my top ten, at #4, than him beating down the Hydra, #5, (which for mythology lovers is pretty rad) due to the artistry of this action scene: PONTUS (Bronze, 12.68g, 31.2mm) Sebastpolis, Gallienus (253-268) AE Year 266=263/4 AD. Obv: AYT KAI ΠO ΛIK ΓAΛΛIHNOC - Bust laureate, draped, cuirassed right, with oversize, elaborately rendered shoulder flap of cuirass, flanked by two folds of cloak falling from a round clasp. Rev: CEBACTO HPAK around clockwise on right, ET (ligate) S - ΞC around counterclockwise on left - Herakles standing left, nude except for lion skin flying out from his back and hanging down beside his left leg, capturing the Ceryneian hind, which rears up left beside him, by grasping its horns and placing his right knee on its back Amandry/Remy 72 (D20/R54). SNG von Aulock 134. 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted December 16, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 16, 2023 Gosh what a sad state of affairs with that coin. 😵 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted December 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2023 (edited) Are these real at all ? Above I postet two "die matches", and I just noticed that the Nomos example sold in 2017 has exactly the same decentering on obverse an reverse, but less details, e.g. if you look for the hair. It could be the untooled state, but there are two earlier auctions with tooling. Edited December 16, 2023 by shanxi 1 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted December 16, 2023 · Patron Share Posted December 16, 2023 15 hours ago, Ryro said: I saw that monstrosity and just shook my head. Poor Domna has been put through the ringer lately! I was just PMing a pal this one earlier today that says NOTHING about the smoothing led alone the hilarious tooling: Julia Domna (Augusta, 193-217). Æ Sestertius (29mm, 23g). Rome. Draped bust right, wearing stephane. R/Juno standing left, holding patera and sceptre; to left, peacock standing left. RIC 840 (Severus). Is the misspelling on the reverse die original, or did the coin doctor smooth away the R by mistake and turn the E into an R in REGINA? Here's the one in my collection. It too has been smoothed in the fields. It hasn't been tooled, though, I don't think. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted December 16, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 16, 2023 Heck I'll take a crusty Roman anytime over a tooled piece which has become a fake...like this Postumus double sestertius (my most encrusted coin!) with a red tone. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted December 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2023 2 hours ago, shanxi said: Are these real at all ? Above I postet two "die matches", and I just noticed that the Nomos example sold in 2017 has exactly the same decentering on obverse an reverse, but less details, e.g. if you look for the hair. It could be the untooled state, but there are two earlier auctions with tooling. I would say that they must be the same coin, but, as you pointed out, they can't be. Meaning they are cast copies. So, this is why we get all the cloak and dagger BS. Smoothing, tooling, repatination. To fool wealthy idiots who don't know any better. Looking at ac search there are a bunch that are obv and Rev matches. CNG has sold several, but here is one that may actually be authentic Who's gonna tell the new auction house it's selling a quadruple fake? smoothed, tooled, repatinated, cast fake? And think they'll remove the listing? 1 1 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted December 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2023 17 hours ago, DonnaML said: I realized that the link I thought I posted to the current auction listing didn't appear in my post, so here it is again: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/eidmarauctions/browse?a=4101&l=4842903&fbclid An auction company called Eid Mar Auctions GmbH in Vienna. Good news. This coin, and many others offerings of theirs, did not sell! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 16, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted December 16, 2023 11 minutes ago, Ryro said: Good news. This coin, and many others offerings of theirs, did not sell! That is good news. Unfortunately, I'm sure it will reappear somewhere else soon. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted December 16, 2023 · Member Share Posted December 16, 2023 This is what happens when the job is not properly done. Gently tooled = unsold. Perhaps a good, sturdy tooling will do the job! 1 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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