Auction houses coin flips

[panzerman]

Help me understand/ we now know that the only safe way to protect/ store/ show coins is to house them in SAFLIPS or slabs. Yet/ all coins sent out from the many auction firms  are in old PCV flips which are deemed unsafe. My question/ why do they still use these old type "unsafe" flips? Plus the SAFLIPS are crystal clear and coin show so much better/ detail/ looks.

John

[AETHER]

Laziness?

[Dwarf]

Just for shipping.

I wouldn´t recommend any plastic flips for long-term storage - no matter what the producer tells on "PVC-free".
But they are perfectly OK for shipping

Regards
Klaus

Edited December 13, 2023 by Dwarf
typing error

[kirispupis]

From what I can tell, the quality of flips used by sellers is all over the place. To be safe, though, I transfer every coin to a SAFLIP.

I know some have issues with long-term storage in flips, but at least so far I've noticed zero issues. That being said, I also seal every flip with electrical tape (which is easy to later remove) and then place them on pages that go in PVC-free sheet holders, which then goes into an album which has a slip case.

Therefore, in my case there's nearly zero air circulation reaching the coin, nor is there any light. The presentation method works very well for my coins because it allows me to easily transport them to show and also prevents people from getting their greasy hands on them, while still letting me remove a coin if I decide to re-photograph it or examine it.

[ela126]

i've seen this brough up a few times on facebook groups. 

Dealers have said, and i paraphrase: "the PVC flips are much easier on your hands, and after handling hundreds or thousands of coins for photographing, this really matters. PVC flips are well known enough these days that they are not meant for long term storage and should be removed upon reciept by the buyer. A few weeks in the flips shouldn't hurt them"

[rNumis]

I no longer trust Saflips for long term storage. I recently looked at some copper coins kept for 10+ years in saflips and there are noticeable coin features on the flip. Moving everything to paper.

[ambr0zie]

One auction house I bought a lot of coins from in 2023 uses cardboard coin holders. I think this also a good idea. 

I really understand why would some dealers/houses use PVC holders just for transport. When I organized my collection from the scratch, during summer, I had to re-photograph about 150 coins, put them back in the album in the same order. Even if I love my collection this was lots of work and boring - take photos, check photos, retake if necessary, process and edit photos... Of course the houses have a more automated workflow but photographing 1000 coins must be still a pain. Probably most of them take the photos - put the coins in PVC flips in the order of the auction lots - when they are bought, they simply sort and add the coins to the parcels. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by ambr0zie

[Ed Snible]

58 minutes ago, rNumis said:

I no longer trust Saflips for long term storage. I recently looked at some copper coins kept for 10+ years in saflips and there are noticeable coin features on the flip. Moving everything to paper.

Do you mean a transfer of the shape?  I have seen Saflips "go white" at a high-point because the coin has caused them to stretch there.

Or do you mean that you see patina on the flip?  I have seen printer ink from the card insert transfer to a flip, but nothing from a coin.

 

I have noticed that Saflips crack if I open them 100 times to pull out the coin, but vinyl ones do not.  If people are to inspect the coins I wouldn't want them in Saflips.

Some dealers will heat-seal coins to prevent theft during inspection.  I think Stacks did this for a while.  Saflips don't easily heat-seal.

[Heliodromus]

If you're keeping coins in flips, then I'm guessing in boxes too (else perhaps in album pockets?).

I switched from flips in album pockets to this current paper envelopes in Whitman boxes storage scheme, and find it very convenient. I made the switch due to number of coins and albums becoming impractical. I use paper envelopes rather than flips because of how easy it makes to label them to be easy to find. My scheme is to order by mint and date, then type/emperor/reference, and I use additional color groupings and marks (e.g. "*" fieldmark above) to help find things. It only takes a few seconds to find the right box and thumb through coins (maintained in this mint+date order) to find what I am looking for.

I've considered laser printing nice stick-on labels for the paper envelopes (maybe incl coin image), but it'll probably never happen! These hand-written ones are just too easy, and serve the purpose of easy-to-find.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Heliodromus

[DonnaML]

I keep my coins in trays. Sometimes in (theoretically inert) capsules within the trays for smaller &/or more valuable &/or gold coins for which I have at least a mild concern that I'll drop or lose them, or that they might be damaged by the movement involved in sliding the trays in and out. In any event, I never keep them in the flips for long, but save the flips (stapled to printed-out coin invoices/photos/descriptions) whenever they come with inserts.

Edited December 13, 2023 by DonnaML

[John Conduitt]

6 hours ago, panzerman said:

we now know that the only safe way to protect/ store/ show coins is to house them in SAFLIPS or slabs.

Well, there are lots of safe ways, just not PVC. Trays, capsules etc.

I have no problem with coins being shipped in them because short-term contact isn’t the problem. I guess the problem is that they don’t say you shouldn’t store them in them. It’s assumed you know. Some like Noonans ship theirs in what must be PVC but it’s heat sealed and you have to cut it to get the coin out, which forces you to use different storage.
 

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

but save the flips (stapled to printed-out coin invoices/photos/descriptions) whenever they come with inserts.

I do this but am a bit concerned about the long term. Any plastic covering I find in my attic from 20+ years ago has disintegrated and potentially ruined any paper it was touching.

Edited December 13, 2023 by John Conduitt

[David Atherton]

4 hours ago, Heliodromus said:

If you're keeping coins in flips, then I'm guessing in boxes too (else perhaps in album pockets?).

I switched from flips in album pockets to this current paper envelopes in Whitman boxes storage scheme, and find it very convenient. I made the switch due to number of coins and albums becoming impractical. I use paper envelopes rather than flips because of how easy it makes to label them to be easy to find. My scheme is to order by mint and date, then type/emperor/reference, and I use additional color groupings and marks (e.g. "*" fieldmark above) to help find things. It only takes a few seconds to find the right box and thumb through coins (maintained in this mint+date order) to find what I am looking for.

I've considered laser printing nice stick-on labels for the paper envelopes (maybe incl coin image), but it'll probably never happen! These hand-written ones are just too easy, and serve the purpose of easy-to-find.

 

This is my preferred method too. I would love to keep them in trays of course, but the bank box is only so big! 

BTW, I have an inordinate hatred of saflips! They are brittle, difficult to remove coins from, and expensive. Envelopes, to my way of thinking, are more traditional, practical, and aesthetically pleasing. 

[rNumis]

5 hours ago, Ed Snible said:

Do you mean a transfer of the shape?  I have seen Saflips "go white" at a high-point because the coin has caused them to stretch there.

Or do you mean that you see patina on the flip?  I have seen printer ink from the card insert transfer to a flip, but nothing from a coin.

Ed, I mean that when I now take out copper coins that have been sitting quietly in boxes for 10-15 years, there is a circular greasy smudge in the shape of the coin on the interior surfaces of the saflip. This is true for all sizes, from small fractions up to large clunkers. I don't think it's stretch marks. I was somewhat shocked, given how people touted these as the best thing since sliced bread. It seems there is some chemical interaction going on, just likely very slow. Maybe not everyone has this experience, but I won't use them anymore. 

[DonnaML]

5 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

I do this but am a bit concerned about the long term. Any plastic covering I find in my attic from 20+ years ago has disintegrated and potentially ruined any paper it was touching.

That surprises me. Leaving aside the fact that the flip with insert or coin tag touches only a tiny portion of an 8 1/2" x 11" printout to begin with, I've been keeping old magazines, event programs, smaller unframed antiquarian maps and prints, family letters, and other family history-related documents in plastic sleeves in storage boxes or 3-ring binders since as long ago as the 1980s. Only for the last 20 years or so have archival sleeves been available, i.e., the equivalent of saflips. Yet -- and I do look at all of these items on occasion -- even the older ones, pre-archival sleeve, are still fine after 35 or 40 years. The same with old photo albums with plastic pages, undoubtedly containing PVC. What has disintegrated are my father's and grandparents' ancient photo albums with black paper pages and paper "corners" attaching the photos to those pages. Sometimes the old photos are so stuck to the pages that they're impossible to remove.

Edited December 14, 2023 by DonnaML

[MrMonkeySwag96]

I exclusively use stapled cardboard 2x2 holders as I can insert them in a coin album.

[Qcumbor]

PVC flips are OK for transport, since it doesn't last more than a few days (yes OK, sometimes weeks or months). I then take them out of their flips to put them on trays (only the world coins, generally worthless, are in PVC free albums

Q

[Prieure de Sion]

I am now very skeptical about PVC cases. I recently ordered solvent-free products from the renowned company Leuchtturm. When I opened the package, the package smelled terribly of PVC solvent! I had the order returned straight away. Most companies for coin accessories probably only order from China and do not control 100% what comes there. I don't trust the PVC flips anymore.
 
If you really want to have bags like this - I recommend paper bags:

https://www.lindner-original.de/numismatik/numismatisches-zubehoer/etuis-und-huellen/muenz-taschen-aus-saeurefreiem-weissem-papier-70-x-70-mm-100er-packung/a-1111130128 

[Steppenfool]

Has anyone ever ran an experiment to test the effect of PVC on coins, Perhaps with some slugs? Has anyone ever seen a surefire case of PVC damage with a control coin for comparison?

I suspect the PVC fear is perhaps overblown, but that doesn't stop me avoiding it. 😂

Edited December 14, 2023 by Steppenfool

[CPK]

6 hours ago, Steppenfool said:

Has anyone ever ran an experiment to test the effect of PVC on coins, Perhaps with some slugs? Has anyone ever seen a surefire case of PVC damage with a control coin for comparison?

I suspect the PVC fear is perhaps overblown, but that doesn't stop me avoiding it. 😂

I bought this Britannia a couple years ago and never bothered to take it out of the soft plastic bag it came in (from APMEX). Just the other day I happened to look at it and noticed this ugly discoloration going on. I don't know if this is PVC damage but I'm pretty sure sitting in the plastic bag didn't help any.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by CPK

[Prieure de Sion]

18 hours ago, Steppenfool said:

I suspect the PVC fear is perhaps overblown, but that doesn't stop me avoiding it. 😂

No... I have a province coin with wonderful green patina... later after 2, 3 weeks I wonder, why the green patina was gone and the coin was near black. The surface was slightly sandy. I think it was old green patina that was peeling off. 

If the solvent is still evaporating properly - then this will definitely attack the metal of the coin. This isn't just a rumor.

[panzerman]

I think a lot of it has to do with temp/ humidity in area where your collection is stored. A coin coll. friend of mine had stored his coins in older flips in a bank lock box/ result some of the silver coins had discoloration. However the bank had no air conditioning in safe area/ so elements may have been main culprit.

I always kept my coll. in climate controlled area/ even some coins after 25 years in older flips were 100 % perfect. But/ now I do switch them all to SAFLIPS/ stored in Leuchturm Album. Here a coin stored in PCV flip since Triton II (now in SAFLIP) but no damage. Most damage to coins is basically due to improper handling/ storage and being dumb like a guy in US (polished his MS-65 1850 Double Eagle....

Here is my Album/ slip case/ holds 50 pages/ black interleaves/ so 1000 coins. I have 845 in flips/ 400 slabs/ 120 modern Proof sets 1965-72. These I may auction off to buy that Corvette/ modern issues are not my top thing anymore. Box of this years haul that I am tranferring to saflips/ album. Going to be a heavy album!