Leu knowingly selling stolen coins?

[JimBranson]

Those of you on facebook may have caught wind of this already but I'll share here for those who haven't seen it.

There are some allegations about Leu Numismatik concerning their upcoming Web Auction 27 as well as their previous auctions. Allegedly, Leu have been selling coins in their auctions that were reported to them as stolen by reputable people within the trade. This was surfaced recently in one of the Facebook groups for ancients.

I have since heard that the allegations concern the following lots in Web Auction 27: lot 733, 784, 1264, and 1270. Apparently these coins were stolen from a FedEx package and somehow wound up being consigned to Leu. As far as I know, Leu has stopped trying to resolve the problem privately and have not commented on it publicly.

Of course without proof this may seem like an attempt to prevent people bidding on those lots. My intentions are only to make others aware of the allegations as it seems possible that the eventual winners of these lots won't be the rightful owners and the ownership of the coins could be disputed for sometime.

Until the matter is cleared up, perhaps some caution is warranted but I'm not suggesting that others should or should not bid on these lots.

[JimBranson]

[Kali]

Seriously, the endless problem threads these auction houses have is mind numbing. I really don't get why people feel the need to support the majority of them. From stolen items, expensive shipping, packages never getting sent, hidden auction fees, non response to emails or phone calls, slow services, new "auction houses" being created, every few months.

With all the posts on here and formally cointalk, it really isn't worth the headaches these places constantly present to their customers.

I'm sure this post will get backlash, which is fine. I know some bargains can be had, rarities can only be found at them versus expensive dealers or ebay, but still, I'm glad I continue to not support these places with my money.

Life has many stresses as it is, and coin collecting is one of the few hobbies I find relaxing after work. I enjoy the hunts like all of us collectors tend to partake, but when the hunt involves Indiana Jones style traps, to get to the prize...it isn't relaxing.😑

[JimBranson]

What matters here is that is Leu is seemingly selling known stolen property even AFTER being alerted to time stamped proof of these coins by the owner and the subsequent recent theft. Even if you would never buy from them, they might sell your next retail purchase that gets snatched at the post office before those coins make it to your home.

Edited August 26, 2023 by JimBranson

[JimBranson]

Lot 733, allegedly: stolen from a FedEx truck, with Leu continuing to offer the coin for sale even AFTER being provided with proof of the stolen nature of coins. Leu has stopped communication with the rightful owner. 
 

Lot 784, allegedly: stolen from a FedEx truck, with Leu continuing to offer the coin for sale even AFTER being provided with proof of the stolen nature of coins. Leu has stopped communication with the rightful owner. 

 

Lot 1264, allegedly: stolen from a FedEx truck, with Leu continuing to offer the coin for sale even AFTER being provided with proof of the stolen nature of coins. Leu has stopped communication with the rightful owner. 

 

Lot 1270, allegedly: stolen from a FedEx truck, with Leu continuing to offer the coin for sale even AFTER being provided with proof of the stolen nature of coins. Leu has stopped communication with the rightful owner. 

[Hesiod]

Wonder what coins were stolen that already sold in the last sale, might be annoying to be the winner of one of those

[Tetradogma]

Leu rapidly gaining the reputation of shadiest auction house. Saw the post on FB about the stolen coins being offered but no reference to which coins they were. Shockingly bad practice. Only personal (bad) experience I have had with them is suspicious, probably shill, bidding. Will be staying away in the future.

[JimBranson]

8 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

Wonder what coins were stolen that already sold in the last sale, might be annoying to be the winner of one of those

considering leu is knowingly selling contraband, I would worried as the winning bidder to receive a refund once police action is taken (which looks to already be underway). Leu will not stop selling this owner’s stolen property so no other avenues are available to the individual 

Edited August 26, 2023 by JimBranson

[Ryro]

Where were they sold previously? Knowing that would be damning and not just speculation. I understand we are being told they were stolen off a truck. But from where?

[El Cazador]

3 minutes ago, Ryro said:

Where were they sold previously? Knowing that would be damning and not just speculation. I understand we are being told they were stolen off a truck. But from where?

Excellent points!!

[JimBranson]

2 minutes ago, Ryro said:

Where were they sold previously? Knowing that would be damning and not just speculation. I understand we are being told they were stolen off a truck. But from where?

That doesn’t matter. Knowledge of the path the coins took from the initial theft to a Leu auction does not matter when Leu has been alerted that the coins are stolen yet still continue to offer the coins for sale. Stolen goods can not be legally be purchased. The buyer of the illicit contraband does not have legal ownership of the items, regardless of whether they knew those goods were stolen at the time.
 

Leu, by knowingly selling stolen goods, Is needless to say in much more legal hot water than a simple lack of ownership that the buyer of these goods has to deal with.

[JimBranson]

Swiss law states: Art collectors who do not act as professionals pursuant to article 16 of the CPTA may be subject to criminal sanctions should they sell, import, distribute, procure, acquire or export cultural property stolen or otherwise lost against the will of the owner (article 24, CPTA).

In light of the inditement and prosecution against Mr. Beale, it would seem appropriate to include American law as well: If you are found guilty of dealing in stolen property, you face a second-degree felony charge and a prison sentence of up to 15 years. However, if it is decided that you are responsible for organizing the larger operation of thievery, you face a first-degree felony charge punishable by up to 30 years in prison

[Limes]

55 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

There are some allegations about Leu Numismatik concerning their upcoming Web Auction 27 as well as their previous auctions. Allegedly

33 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

What matters here is that is Leu is seemingly selling known stolen property even AFTER being alerted to time stamped proof of these coins by the owner and the subsequent recent theft.

Not defending anyone here, but I think some clarification should be given. Is it allegedly or a fact? And if fact, see next…

2 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

That doesn’t matter.

It does ofcourse. You also mention owner, above. So there is evidence out there? Why not share a but more about it? how would I know, other then a post which uses allegedly and presenting it as a fact?

[JimBranson]

Yes. I say allegedly because I am not able to provide proof at this point. The best I can do is share the above Facebook comment by someone in the know as well as the rumors circulating, substantiated by others who are closer placed to this situation than I.

[Hesiod]

I don't know about the specific coins in question, but mike (the owner of cng) made a comment on Facebook about stolen coins (see the second post)

[Kaleun96]

18 minutes ago, Ryro said:

Where were they sold previously? Knowing that would be damning and not just speculation. I understand we are being told they were stolen off a truck. But from where?

Would it help though? Say they were sold at Auction House X in 2022, does that make the claim more or less likely to be true? It might help a bit if they were recently sold at auction and we'd then assume they were stolen on their way to the buyer but apart from that I don't think it'd be of much help.

Given Mike's comment in the Facebook group, it sounds like CNG might know more about it as I assume the "we" he uses means CNG. Perhaps it was a client of theirs or someone asked them to step in on their behalf?

I doubt someone working at CNG would throw around accusations like this for fun so there's surely some truth to the story.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Kaleun96

[JimBranson]

5 minutes ago, Limes said:

t does ofcourse. You also mention owner, above. So there is evidence out there? Why not share a but more about it?

Yes, I believe I misunderstood you. If Leu is knowingly selling stolen property, the path it took before arriving to Leu is irrelevant legally speaking in terms of liability and consequences. Obviously having proof matters in the case of whether Leu is guilty in doing this. I have shared all that I can in the hope that no one buys these coins in the likely advent of further legal action against Leu and future troubles associated with the owners of both these lots shared above and previous lots sold at Leu from the same group of suspected stolen coins

[El Cazador]

5 minutes ago, Hesiod said:

I don't know about the specific coins in question, but mike (the owner of cng) made a comment on Facebook about stolen coins (see the second post)

And?

[JimBranson]

Just now, El Cazador said:

And?

CNG, unlike some auction houses, has a positive industry reputation and a track record of solid business practices. The owner of the firm has a reputation likewise and so is in a position to be trusted. 

[John Conduitt]

It's hard to do anything when there isn't enough information. Why would Leu sell stolen coins for commission of maybe a total of CHF500? It seems oddly cavalier given the possible consequences. What was said to the person making the claim before they 'stopped trying to resolve the problem privately'? It would be very sensible for them to make no comment, especially in public, even if they are doing the right thing and are talking to police. We don't even know that they actually sold and dispatched the coins.

[El Cazador]

Just now, JimBranson said:

CNG, unlike some auction houses, has a positive industry reputation and a track record of solid business practices. The owner of the firm has a reputation likewise and so is in a position to be trusted. 

Certainly, but we need specifics around logistics as to how they ended up at Leu, perhaps there were 5 other owners before the consignor got a hold of it… so it is not totally fair to call out these other 5 owners and Leu

[JimBranson]

1 minute ago, El Cazador said:

Certainly, but we need specifics around logistics as to how they ended up at Leu, perhaps there were 5 other owners before the consignor got a hold of it… so it is not totally fair to call out these other 5 owners and Leu

From what I have been told, Leu offered these coins at auction. Involved parties reached out to Leu with evidence of the stolen nature of the coins. Leu, now aware that these coins are stolen, has continued to offer them at auction. 

The path from initial theft to current status is irrelevant once Leu was made aware of the stolen nature of these coins. 

[El Cazador]

2 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

The path from initial theft to current status is irrelevant once Leu was made aware of the stolen nature of these coins. 

This is absolutely not true- “path” - meat and potatoes of the issue here

[Väinämöinen]

20 minutes ago, El Cazador said:

Certainly, but we need specifics around logistics as to how they ended up at Leu, perhaps there were 5 other owners before the consignor got a hold of it… so it is not totally fair to call out these other 5 owners and Leu

Not really, no. Assuming the coins are indeed contraband, their path from the moment they were stolen to being put up for sale concerns primarily the authorities and the parties involved in this chain of events. To the public the relevant information is whether these coins are stolen and if they are then what the auction house is going to do about it.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Väinämöinen

[Limes]

32 minutes ago, JimBranson said:

Yes, I believe I misunderstood you. If Leu is knowingly selling stolen property, the path it took before arriving to Leu is irrelevant legally speaking in terms of liability and consequences. Obviously having proof matters in the case of whether Leu is guilty in doing this. I have shared all that I can in the hope that no one buys these coins in the likely advent of further legal action against Leu and future troubles associated with the owners of both these lots shared above and previous lots sold at Leu from the same group of suspected stolen coins

Well, I am not a native speaker, so mistakes are easily made. Still, the path is very relevant, the circumstances are relevant, what Leu knew and when, the conseignor, the buyer, and so on. Not per se to be discussed on this board though, but relevant, yes. Because its what makes something ‘knowingly’. 
But still, this is a minor issue. At hand is the question, how would a buyer know a coin he bought was stolen previously. I do not know Mike, but the involvement of cng does mean something. But those 4 coins are from this sale. Where could one find the other coins? And how would one then prove they were stolen? Im a buyer at the previous Leu auction, and I would not want stolen goods in my collection. Nobody does (right?), so, again, some more info is important. 
Ive looked at the 4 coins offered be Leu. No previous selling venue mentioned and al are “From a European collection, formed before 2005.”  So, does this mean Leu is also faking provenance? Or did they believed the story of a thieve? What else is going on? 
 

addition; if the rightful owner can simply prove he bought these and hé was not the one to offer them to Leu for sale, I wonder why Leu stopped this communication. Seeing how easy it is to prove this, the it sounds very risky and also stupid from Leu. Did the owner inform the police, that would be the logical step.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Limes