Slab ripoffs

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

John, Most of the 17 reasons you cite are superfluous gibberish, especially #17. I don't collect slabbed coins as investments or commodities & don't know anyone else who does, although many of the slabbed coins I've sold turned out to be great investments. One thing that makes me grind my teeth is watching a clumsy oaf mishandle a raw, gem grade ancient coin with their filthy hands 😠. Ancient coins are treasures from the past & need to be respected, protected & past on to future generation without being mishandled by thoughtless collectors, that's why most collectors like slabbed coins.

I wasn't criticising you or anyone who slabs coins (I have tried to slab coins in the past). Just the product offered by the TPGs. If it was better, such as by not locking the coin up, there might be less hostility to it.

Perhaps you see my reasons for not wanting to slab my coins as irrelevant. But cost and inconvenience are not superfluous when choosing whether to buy a product or service. I don't own a Ferrari for my daily commute because it costs a lot and it's a pain to park, and the trunk is the wrong size for me. It scratches easily and if I need a repair, the dealership is 100 miles away. This might work for some people, but not me. If a slab is costly and inconvenient, I don't want it. It's more than the fact that I can't hold the coin in my hand.

There are a lot of people who buy coins based on the grade, which is commoditisation. US coin boards have plenty of people talking about just that. I didn't say you did this or that this is the motivation for everyone slabbing coins. But the investment idea gets transferred to other 'asset classes'.

As I said to start with, "I've yet to free one (from a slab), and don't really mind if someone else slabs theirs, certainly less than them messing with them." Putting coins in holders is not a bad thing. But locking them in? There are other ways to protect and preserve them. I've yet to see a slabbed coin on display in a museum.

Edited August 20, 2023 by John Conduitt

[CPK]

I don't have strong feelings about slabs either way. On the one hand, I like the clean and uniform presentation they give. Also, although of course we all know that slabbed ancients are not "guaranteed authentic", the plain fact is that every slabbed coin has been examined and evaluated by an expert and judged genuine. That is not valueless, unless you are more qualified than the TPG expert.

It also makes the coin more re-saleable in certain venues. And of course it protects the coin from damage.

On the flip side, not being able to physically hold and examine the coin is a major negative for me personally. You can go to any museum and stare at things behind glass and plastic; but being able to touch and hold your own ancient artifact is a large part of what makes the hobby so special IMO.

Additionally, with slabs your storage options are more limited. And as already mentioned, the numismatic information provided on the slab label is extremely limited, more so than I would like. And taking pictures is a pain.

In general I prefer my coins raw, but it's not like I'd refuse to buy a coin slabbed if the price was right. After all it's a lot easier (and cheaper) to de-slab a coin than it is to slab one. 😉 

[AETHER]

Imo slabs make a great gift to a non collector. 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Postumus … antioch mint? 🙈 Take a closer look at this horrendously miss attributed slab

[ambr0zie]

[robinjojo]

There are instances when I buy slabbed coins, based on the merits of the coin, ignoring the information on the slab, and if the price is within what I deem "reasonable" for that type of coin.  However, the vast majority of my acquisitions have been raw coins. 

It seems to me, at least with ancient coins, that having them slabbed, while economically advantageous in terms of resale price, takes away a good deal of the pleasure of holding a long distance time traveler in one's hand.  Ancient coins, I think, invite handling, with some precautions, and whether it is by the fingertips or in hand, an ancient coin conveys weight, form, artistry and history at a very personal level.   I think one could argue that ancient coins want  to be handled, for their history is one of commerce, where coins were routinely passed from hand to hand innumerable times, each time subtly changing the color or the surface (gold excepted). All of these transactions culminating in burial, usually, with time, moisture and air create the coins that grace our collections and those of future collectors.  

I suppose that slabbing modern coins could make sense, especially for proof coins or coins or medals with delicate surfaces that would be damaged with fingerprints or smudges created by the transfer of oil or dirt to the coin's surface.  A slab would protect from those forms of mishandling.  For ancient coins, mishandling isn't really an issue in most cases. unless we're taking about dropping the coin on a hard surface!

So, yes, the telemarketers are having a field day selling worn ancient coins at very healthy markups, once slabbed, to mostly new or uniformed collectors or investors, but this is an old, old tale that has been played out many a time before, and will no doubt continue. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by robinjojo

[Al Kowsky]

9 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

Your coins are beautiful and we're not knocking you, Al.  I can see why you do it.  You're making a rational financial decision because you're selling some through Heritage.

Aaron Berk's opinion was that slabs are sold through telemarketers or auction houses (I'd add to this, dealers who don't specialize in ancients*), to people who aren't really knowledgeable about ancient coins.  He also added, authenticity isn't guaranteed (which a lot of a casual buyers don't know) and that the grades often were way off. Furthermore, according to him, the American coins dealers had so trained to the clientele to only buy coins in slabs.

*Per my local coin store.  The owner, who is a really nice guy, doesn't know much about ancients and freely admits this.  For a while, NGC slabs were the majority of the store's stock.  My dad only buys from the local coin store.  Hence, birthday or Christmas presents come from here.  While there were a couple of slabbed coins which I was delighted to get (because they were types which I'd always wanted), my favorites by far were the raw coins, sourced from a long-time ancients dealer.  Since my dad is also their best ancients customer, I asked him to ask them if they could cool it a bit on the slabs.  The dealer also had an anecdote about raw coins.  He had a stack of some common, but beautiful Constantine-era LRB's.  The source advised him to price them at $60 and they flew out the door, mostly to non-ancient collectors.

I view my slabbed coins as less valuable and were I less of a klutz, they'd all be freed.  The only thing I liked about them was that I could handle the slab when my hands weren't bone dry.  People also don't take into account of how slabs will age.  Will they yellow?  Will they scratch up?

Stated grade is also pretty unimportant to me.  I don't care if it's the greatest authority in the world.  While I freely admit to being a budget collector (mostly under $300), I buy a coin if I like it and it's not a ripoff.  Patina is high up on the scale for AE buys.  Like Aaron Berk says, grading ancients is a bit subjective. There's a bit of room for wiggle room.

Here's an example.  I personally would grade this as XF (by wear) - yeah, it wouldn't qualify for old-school XF, but despite the crappy strike (which made it affordable), it's pretty much like it was out of the mint.  It has the most mirror-like surfaces by far of any gold coin I have.  It is a neat type, a neat bust type, and the Syracuse tetradrachm which I was looking at lost out.  Not the Syracuse one with the beautiful style, but rather the one with the hair looking like that headgear that Jamaican rastas wear.  This coin gave me a lot of happiness.  Rasta Syracuse, which was an ok Fine, wouldn't have.  I later bought a ghastly Syracuse, just to say I had one.  Although it was in nice condition (by wear), I bought it because it appealed to me.

Edit: The upsides of this coin, the wonderful, mirror-like surfaces, would have been hidden in a cloudy slab.  I also don't like those little prongs.

 

Nero, I honestly don't care who slabs coin & who doesn't, it's a personal decision, but I do get annoyed when I hear some of the gibberish from people who are against slabbing. I did hear Aaron Berk's last podcast & agree with much he had to say, especially how people are over-paying for high grade slabbed coins with star * designations & "Fine Style" comments. I've sold slabbed coins not only through Heritage, but also through CNG, Great Collections & Stack's Bowers, & have done exceptionally well with most of the results. Contrary to what Aaron Berk said on his podcast, a slabbed coin will usually sell for much more than a raw coin. I've proven this many time with coins I've won at auction, had them slabbed, & later resold them for a substantial profit 😉.

[John Conduitt]

I don't think anyone doubts there's money to be made buying raw, slabbing and flipping. That's the whole point of this thread.

Edited August 21, 2023 by John Conduitt

[ajax]

5 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

Nero, I honestly don't care who slabs coin & who doesn't, it's a personal decision, but I do get annoyed when I hear some of the gibberish from people who are against slabbing. I did hear Aaron Berk's last podcast & agree with much he had to say, especially how people are over-paying for high grade slabbed coins with star * designations & "Fine Style" comments. I've sold slabbed coins not only through Heritage, but also through CNG, Great Collections & Stack's Bowers, & have done exceptionally well with most of the results. Contrary to what Aaron Berk said on his podcast, a slabbed coin will usually sell for much more than a raw coin. I've proven this many time with coins I've won at auction, had them slabbed, & later resold them for a substantial profit 😉.

 

Last time I got a slabbed coin from heritage, the consignor was someone like you. He bought the coin from an obscure auction in which I actually was the second underbidder. Then he slabbed the coin and hoped for an easy profit in heritage. Unfortunately for fim, he lost at least 2000 USD out of it. To add insult to injury, the coin has a 1905 Hirsch provenance which neither the slabber nor the flipper cared to research. I think there is a colossal anomaly in the market and everyday I see new self-proclaimed experts (flippers) bidding aggressively for coins they have no idea about. Even auctioneers aggressively buy coins from auctioned collections so they can mix 1 coin with an old provenance among the hundred of new finds they are auctioning. Like in this way they will make the entire sale legitimate. Needless to say that it gives me great pleasure to rip the flippers. Possibly much more than just winning the coin itself.

[Kaleun96]

5 hours ago, Al Kowsky said:

Contrary to what Aaron Berk said on his podcast, a slabbed coin will usually sell for much more than a raw coin. I've proven this many time with coins I've won at auction, had them slabbed, & later resold them for a substantial profit 😉.

Weird, because I've bought raw coins at auction, not had them slabbed, and later resold them for substantial profit. Based on your reasoning, I've proven that not slabbing coins performs just as well as slabbing coins!! 😉

I suspect the actual answer is it depends. Mostly it depends on where you sell the coin but it also depends on the coin itself (hint: the grade it will be given by NGC). If you buy a raw coin and slab it to sell at CNG, on average I would suggest that the coin does not sell for more than it would have otherwise after taking into account the slabbing fees. At European auction houses, that's even more so the case.

Now, if you repeat this at Stacks Bowers or Heritage Auctions then yeah it wouldn't surprise me if slabbing the coin brought a higher hammer. That's because these auction houses attract collectors who are used to slabbing and get caught up in slabbing grades and adjectives. But for the vast majority of the ancients market, slabbing likely doesn't pay off. There are perhaps some exceptions for certain types of coins and certain sales (e.g. feature auctions attracting more slab-obsessed types) but on the whole slabbing an average ancient coin isn't going to do you much. Slabbing a mint state Alexander the Great drachm and selling it at Heritage Auctions will probably payoff quite well, however.

Quote

Ancient coins are treasures from the past & need to be respected, protected & past on to future generation without being mishandled by thoughtless collectors, that's why most collectors like slabbed coins.

Just to come back to this but most ancients collectors do not prefer slabbed coins. About 95% of ancient coins at auction are sold unslabbed, likely closer to 99% when factoring in dollar-bin coins and the like.

Quote

There are many reasons why some collectors like their coins slabbed, & only one serious reason why others prefer their coins raw, they like to handle the actual coin.

What are some reasons for slabbing an ancient coin with NGC versus buying a coin from a reputable dealer or auction house and using one of those slabs that allows you to take the coin out when you want? The grading NGC offers is not beneficial in my view, the authenticity check is often no better than what a reputable dealer or auction house can provide and NGC provides no guarantee of authenticity, the case is a standardised size but you can buy knock-offs of the same dimensions, the sealing may help stabilise toning and prevent bronze disease but you can control this yourself without a slab, the information on an NGC slab is borderline useless in most cases, the online look-up is no better than having a record of your coin's sale history in acsearch or similar, the extra protection the plastic offers is negligible compared to any other plastic case, etc.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't slab your coins but for me, I'd get the same benefit for a fraction of the cost and time by simply buying one of those cheap coin cases, while also retaining the benefit of being able to handle my coin when I want.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Kaleun96

[Rand]

I doubt just slabbing any coin would bring profit. This would depend on the expertise of the collector/dealer. Slabbing may lead to a loss if the seller overgraded the coin and slabbed grades are low.

I won a slabbed coin this morning. I am unsure why it was slabbed; this may be Heritage's policy. I bought it for a die study, irrespective of the grade, probably adding 20% to the sale price. Still, I doubt the slabbing paid off. I will unslab it to fit the collection.

Another coin where slabbing probably paid off for the seller. I have not unslabbed it, in case I need to sell.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Rand

[maridvnvm]

Going completely against my own advice. I did buy a slabbed coin for the slab rather than the coin. It is not as egregious as mixing up Gordian II with Postumus (which looks like a cut and paste error....). This coin is a more common mix up but even then inexcusable. The slabbed coin cost me less than the cost of getting a coin slabbed.

Galerius - Follis

Obv:– GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, Laureate head right
Rev:– GENIO POPVL-I ROMANI, Genius standing left holding patera
Minted in Antioch (_ | G // ANT Dot). A.D. 304-305
Reference:– RIC VI Antioch 59b

Slabbed by ANACS and mis-attributed to Maximinus II - ANACS 6091129

[Heliodromus]

Not only is it Galerius, but in either case they've also got the date wrong. If it was Maximinus II then it'd be RIC 71b (305 AD), but since it's Galerius it's RIC 59b (304-305 AD). Not sure where they pulled that 308-309 AD date from !

Of course it's also better called a Nummus, not a Follis (a bag of coins), and one could also quibble that this 309 AD terminus date for Maximinus II as caesar, it if had been him, is wrong - it should be 310 AD.

Maybe you could get the ANACS slab slabbed by NGC, to sell to an error slab collector ? 😀

 

 

[John Conduitt]

2 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

Going completely against my own advice. I did buy a slabbed coin for the slab rather than the coin. It is not as egregious as mixing up Gordian II with Postumus (which looks like a cut and paste error....). This coin is a more common mix up but even then inexcusable. The slabbed coin cost me less than the cost of getting a coin slabbed.

Galerius - Follis

Obv:– GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, Laureate head right
Rev:– GENIO POPVL-I ROMANI, Genius standing left holding patera
Minted in Antioch (_ | G // ANT Dot). A.D. 304-305
Reference:– RIC VI Antioch 59b

Slabbed by ANACS and mis-attributed to Maximinus II - ANACS 6091129

In NGC's case (and perhaps all the other TPGs), they do not attribute as part of the service. You're only paying for the grade. Therefore, the guarantee only applies to authenticity and overgrading (of modern coins). It doesn't apply to misattribution or undergrading. So there's no incentive for them not to just go with whatever the submitter put on the form, and no way to get your money back from them if you overpaid because of that description.

But they will fix 'clerical errors' (obviously it couldn't be the experts making errors like getting the emperor wrong!). They will do this for no charge, as they should, although you might have to stump up the postage and insurance. On the other hand, they won't put a variety on the label that they don't recognise, even though they won't guarantee it anyway.

Edited August 21, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, ajax said:

 

Last time I got a slabbed coin from heritage, the consignor was someone like you. He bought the coin from an obscure auction in which I actually was the second underbidder. Then he slabbed the coin and hoped for an easy profit in heritage. Unfortunately for fim, he lost at least 2000 USD out of it. To add insult to injury, the coin has a 1905 Hirsch provenance which neither the slabber nor the flipper cared to research. I think there is a colossal anomaly in the market and everyday I see new self-proclaimed experts (flippers) bidding aggressively for coins they have no idea about. Even auctioneers aggressively buy coins from auctioned collections so they can mix 1 coin with an old provenance among the hundred of new finds they are auctioning. Like in this way they will make the entire sale legitimate. Needless to say that it gives me great pleasure to rip the flippers. Possibly much more than just winning the coin itself.

I don't consider myself a "flipper" & have raw coins slabbed for my personal collection. Over time my collecting objectives have changed & I've auctioned coins that no longer interest me 😉. I know there are many collectors & dealers who like to "flip" coins for a profit, & if they're successful at it good for them ☺️.

[El Cazador]

5 hours ago, ajax said:

 

Last time I got a slabbed coin from heritage, the consignor was someone like you. He bought the coin from an obscure auction in which I actually was the second underbidder. Then he slabbed the coin and hoped for an easy profit in heritage. Unfortunately for fim, he lost at least 2000 USD out of it. To add insult to injury, the coin has a 1905 Hirsch provenance which neither the slabber nor the flipper cared to research. I think there is a colossal anomaly in the market and everyday I see new self-proclaimed experts (flippers) bidding aggressively for coins they have no idea about. Even auctioneers aggressively buy coins from auctioned collections so they can mix 1 coin with an old provenance among the hundred of new finds they are auctioning. Like in this way they will make the entire sale legitimate. Needless to say that it gives me great pleasure to rip the flippers. Possibly much more than just winning the coin itself.

Can we see the coin in question?

[Phil Davis]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:51 AM, Al Kowsky said:

...There are many reasons why some collectors like their coins slabbed, & only one serious reason why others prefer their coins raw, they like to handle the actual coin...

For some of us, seeing the actual coin without intervening plastic is more important than touching it.

[Heliodromus]

Holding and seeing are part of it, but more generally it's a matter of being able to work with the coins - measure and weigh them, take photos of them individually or in groups, maybe even "handle" them to extent that some coins do feel different in hand due to different flan thickness or weight per unit area.

As a purely practical matter, slabbing doesn't make any sense for a larger collection, or a collection of lesser value coins, even if you like the look and don't work with your coins. The useless labels would annoy me too. How do you attach attribution information or notes to the slab?!

From starting with albums when my collection was smaller, I've moved on to 2x2 paper envelopes in Whitman boxes. I find it very useful to be able to hand write dates, notes etc on the envelopes and make color-coded marks on them for organizational purposes etc. Easy to updates the notes or just start over as needed. Maybe in an ideal world I'd house them in a large cabinet where they could be "on display" as well as stored and searchable, but I do like the storage density of my current scheme.

It seems that for modern coins slabs serve two purposes: grade and protection, and neither of these really apply to ancients. We're talking about coins that have survived thousands of years buried and encrusted in dirt, not mirror finish proof surfaces that will be ruined by a fingerprint. Grading for moderns seems mostly a way to create artificial rarity out of cookie cutter machine made coins that exist in the millions. Ancients don't need artificial rarity - many are truly rare with less than a dozen known to exist, and numerical grading schemes are nonsense given that most ancients collectors rate desirability of coins of the same type based on aesthetics.

 

[Al Kowsky]

4 hours ago, El Cazador said:

Can we see the coin in question?

the ajax story sounded contrived to me 🤔.

[Al Kowsky]

55 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

Holding and seeing are part of it, but more generally it's a matter of being able to work with the coins - measure and weigh them, take photos of them individually or in groups, maybe even "handle" them to extent that some coins do feel different in hand due to different flan thickness or weight per unit area.

As a purely practical matter, slabbing doesn't make any sense for a larger collection, or a collection of lesser value coins, even if you like the look and don't work with your coins. The useless labels would annoy me too. How do you attach attribution information or notes to the slab?!

From starting with albums when my collection was smaller, I've moved on to 2x2 paper envelopes in Whitman boxes. I find it very useful to be able to hand write dates, notes etc on the envelopes and make color-coded marks on them for organizational purposes etc. Easy to updates the notes or just start over as needed. Maybe in an ideal world I'd house them in a large cabinet where they could be "on display" as well as stored and searchable, but I do like the storage density of my current scheme.

It seems that for modern coins slabs serve two purposes: grade and protection, and neither of these really apply to ancients. We're talking about coins that have survived thousands of years buried and encrusted in dirt, not mirror finish proof surfaces that will be ruined by a fingerprint. Grading for moderns seems mostly a way to create artificial rarity out of cookie cutter machine made coins that exist in the millions. Ancients don't need artificial rarity - many are truly rare with less than a dozen known to exist, and numerical grading schemes are nonsense given that most ancients collectors rate desirability of coins of the same type based on aesthetics.

 

"How do you attach attribution information or notes to the slab?1"

I often attach added info to a slab via computer for my photo files like the coins pictured below 😉. Of course this doesn't impair the actual slab in any way.

 

 

I get to handle my coins as much as I like before getting them slabbed, & grading ancient coins may not be important to you but it is important to me. I've held many slabs for a long time before selling them & never witnessed any discoloration of the slab or change in color of the coins. I don't like to slab large bronze coins & have even cracked a number of them out of their slabs. 

 

[Al Kowsky]

2 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

For some of us, seeing the actual coin without intervening plastic is more important than touching it.

Many collectors feel the same way you do, I don't 😉.

[robinjojo]

Does anyone remember the old Capital Plastics holders?  They used these small screws to secure the coin.  Sometimes screws were misplaced, as is the case here, but that's no big issue - the coin is very secure and can be easily removed from the holder.  Besides, I have quite a few screws missing in my brain, so I identify strongly with this situation!

[Al Kowsky]

10 hours ago, Rand said:

I doubt just slabbing any coin would bring profit. This would depend on the expertise of the collector/dealer. Slabbing may lead to a loss if the seller overgraded the coin and slabbed grades are low.

I won a slabbed coin this morning. I am unsure why it was slabbed; this may be Heritage's policy. I bought it for a die study, irrespective of the grade, probably adding 20% to the sale price. Still, I doubt the slabbing paid off. I will unslab it to fit the collection.

Another coin where slabbing probably paid off for the seller. I have not unslabbed it, in case I need to sell.

 

I hope you don't crack the bottom solidus out of it's holder. Last night a solidus of Anastasius the same grade as your coin sold for $4,320.00, & I think your coin looks better than that one 😉. See the photos below.

 

[Al Kowsky]

3 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

Does anyone remember the old Capital Plastics holders?  They used these small screws to secure the coin.  Sometimes screws were misplaced, as is the case here, but that's no big issue - the coin is very secure and can be easily removed from the holder.  Besides, I have quite a few screws missing in my brain, so I identify strongly with this situation!

Of all the coins you've posted that one is my favorite 🤩!

[Rand]

2 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said:

I hope you don't crack the bottom solidus out of it's holder.

I will not 🙂 The coin sold yesterday is of common PP type. The one I showed is of much rarer PERP type and one of the highest grade (if not highest) known. 🙂