Roman Collector Posted June 8, 2023 · Patron Share Posted June 8, 2023 I saw this sestertius for sale in the current Numismatik Naumann auction and immediately recognized the style of the hair and veil was off. It has been tooled and not even very skillfully. It is an obverse die match to Roma Numismatics, Auction 19, lot 846, 26 March 2020. Mine is a double die match to the Roma specimen and an obverse die match to the tooled example from Naumann. It's in lower grade but still demonstrates differences from the tooled Naumann example. 12 1 2 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 8, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 8, 2023 35 minutes ago, Roman Collector said: I saw this sestertius for sale in the current Numismatik Naumann auction and immediately recognized the style of the hair and veil was off. It has been tooled and not even very skillfully. It is an obverse die match to Roma Numismatics, Auction 19, lot 846, 26 March 2020. Mine is a double die match to the Roma specimen and an obverse die match to the tooled example from Naumann. It's in lower grade but still demonstrates differences from the tooled Naumann example. Will you be contacting Naumann if you haven't already? Perhaps they'll cure the problem by add something to the description like "minor traces of processing," as H.D. Rauch did with the Philip of Macedon tets! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted June 8, 2023 · Patron Author Share Posted June 8, 2023 19 minutes ago, DonnaML said: Will you be contacting Naumann if you haven't already? Perhaps they'll cure the problem by add something to the description like "minor traces of processing," as H.D. Rauch did with the Philip of Macedon tets! I have contacted them about this, yes. I'll keep everyone posted. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, DonnaML said: Will you be contacting Naumann if you haven't already? Perhaps they'll cure the problem by add something to the description like "minor traces of processing," as H.D. Rauch did with the Philip of Macedon tets! Or possibly "enhanced", which I seem to see more often. To me the word enhanced implies a better state of condition than the previous one. Caveat emptor "word games". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Octavius said: Or possibly "enhanced", which I seem to see more often. To me the word enhanced implies a better state of condition than the previous one. Caveat emptor "word games". Yes like 'Collector's Copy' and 'Electrotype' mean fake. Edited June 8, 2023 by John Conduitt 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Ancient Coin Hunter Posted June 8, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 8, 2023 Slightly Augmented....nothing wrong with that! 😵 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edessa Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) I would prefer "Tooled - no longer an authentic ancient artifact. Purchase "as is" at your own risk. No returns." Edited June 8, 2023 by Edessa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavius Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 17 minutes ago, Ancient Coin Hunter said: Slightly Augmented....nothing wrong with that! 😵 That's how I refer to my weight! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, DonnaML said: Will you be contacting Naumann if you haven't already? Perhaps they'll cure the problem by add something to the description like "minor traces of processing," as H.D. Rauch did with the Philip of Macedon tets! To be fair, I think HD Rauch have been short-changed by Google Translate. I don't speak German, but 'Bearbeitungsspuren', which Google translated in the sentence as 'traces of processing' (without 'minor'), is translated separately as 'Machining marks'. In other online dictionaries, it's given as 'Tool marks'. If I ask it for the German for 'tooled', Google Translate gives me 'bestückt'. But when I ask it to translate 'bestückt' into English, it tells me it means 'stocked'. It seems to mean quite a lot of things, in fact, which in many cases would give a completely different meaning. Chat GPT, by the way, translates 'tooled coin' as 'Werkmünze', which Google says is 'work coin'. (Actually, it means machine-made coin). But elsewhere, the word 'Werk' is given as 'masterpiece' while 'münze' means coin. So you could get 'tooled' to be translated as 'masterpiece' and get very much the wrong impression. Edited June 8, 2023 by John Conduitt 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 8, 2023 · Member Share Posted June 8, 2023 2 hours ago, John Conduitt said: To be fair, I think HD Rauch have been short-changed by Google Translate. I don't speak German, but 'Bearbeitungsspuren', which Google translated in the sentence as 'traces of processing' (without 'minor'), is translated separately as 'Machining marks'. In other online dictionaries, it's given as 'Tool marks'. Tooled - in relation of coins - you can say "bearbeitet" or also "Bearbeitungsspuren" - last one its like "you can see tooling in some areas of the coins"... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 8, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 8, 2023 5 hours ago, John Conduitt said: To be fair, I think HD Rauch have been short-changed by Google Translate. I don't speak German, but 'Bearbeitungsspuren', which Google translated in the sentence as 'traces of processing' (without 'minor'), is translated separately as 'Machining marks'. In other online dictionaries, it's given as 'Tool marks'. If I ask it for the German for 'tooled', Google Translate gives me 'bestückt'. But when I ask it to translate 'bestückt' into English, it tells me it means 'stocked'. It seems to mean quite a lot of things, in fact, which in many cases would give a completely different meaning. Chat GPT, by the way, translates 'tooled coin' as 'Werkmünze', which Google says is 'work coin'. (Actually, it means machine-made coin). But elsewhere, the word 'Werk' is given as 'masterpiece' while 'münze' means coin. So you could get 'tooled' to be translated as 'masterpiece' and get very much the wrong impression. You may well be correct. The problem is that the only truly adequate disclosure of what was done would be to link to the original photos of the coins in the Leu auction six months ago. And there's no way Rauch would ever do that, because if they did, it's unlikely that anyone would ever buy the coins, not at a minimum bid of $1,000 each. Rauch would probably rather just withdraw the coins than make that disclosure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 ..i respect the opinion of RC on such matters concerning Faustina's coins based on his interest and study on these types... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Conduitt Posted June 8, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, ominus1 said: ..i respect the opinion of RC on such matters concerning Faustina's coins based on his interest and study on these types... He finds so many to post here, even I'm starting to recognise Faustina tooled hair... 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted June 12, 2023 · Patron Author Share Posted June 12, 2023 This is the response from the firm: Dr. Roman Collector: i checked the coin with the microscope. I still tend to say that the coin is not tooled, but shows significant cleaning marks. The coin used as reference shows an alternating pattern of fine and strong hairlines. If a coin is used especially the fine lines will be lost and only the strong lines will be visible. Also the patina of the coin is still intact, some encrustations visible inside the lines. The Type of Patina / Corrosion is quite thin, so there is not much room to cut details into the patina (Cuts in Metal would surely be visible. All the best Marcus Naumann 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenfool Posted June 12, 2023 · Member Share Posted June 12, 2023 55 minutes ago, Roman Collector said: This is the response from the firm: Dr. Roman Collector: i checked the coin with the microscope. I still tend to say that the coin is not tooled, but shows significant cleaning marks. The coin used as reference shows an alternating pattern of fine and strong hairlines. If a coin is used especially the fine lines will be lost and only the strong lines will be visible. Also the patina of the coin is still intact, some encrustations visible inside the lines. The Type of Patina / Corrosion is quite thin, so there is not much room to cut details into the patina (Cuts in Metal would surely be visible. All the best Marcus Naumann I must say I am quite shocked. I can hardly weigh in as an expert, but the the "strong lines" in the example for sale don't look like they'd arise from natural wear at all. They also don't seem to match the "strong lines" in the unaltered example. It seems to me that the tooler has cut where the raised points on the veil should be, rather than where there should be depth. Below is (crudely) how I imagine the "strong lines" would actually appear on an unaltered specimen. The tooler seems to get it right at the bottom of the veil but then starts engraving where there should be a raised area instead? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edessa Posted June 23, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted June 23, 2023 I guess our collecting mantra should be: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." - (quoted from Socrates, Benjamin Franklin, Sting or somebody like that}. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restitutor Posted June 25, 2023 · Administrator Share Posted June 25, 2023 What a great catch RC! I have always been intrigued why it seems so difficult to find reliable places that sell non-tampered sestertii and call out tooled ones. I have a number of houses where I’ll buy from them for denarii, but I can’t bring myself to trust them correctly identifying whether a sestertii has been tooled. If it looks too good to be true, and the price is on the lower end, generally end up steering clear. Maybe some houses just don’t think it’s an important thing to call out? Or perhaps it’s more difficult to identify and not every house thinks it’s worth the investment? Someone smarter than me I’m sure has the answer 😆 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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